Trout, GOAT

[broncosmitty]

Because there's more to baseball than hitting (and Trout's wRC+ is only 6 points higher)? Mookie led all outfielders in UZR (Trout was 16th in UZR/150) and finished tied for 2nd in DRS (+20, Trout had +8). Mookie finished with 10.4 WAR while Trout finished at 9.8.

There's more than math calculations too.

 

[StanMarsh51]

And you could throw as well as he could. Sid Bream scored on his noodle arm. He was the modern Ted Williams.

And is throwing the most important part of defense? Hardly.

Bonds had great range and a great ability to read hit balls during his earlier years, but let's just focus on arm strength as if that's the only factor in defense.

 

[blstoker]

And you could throw as well as he could. Sid Bream scored on his noodle arm. He was the modern Ted Williams.

Generally, LFs have weaker throwing arms that CFs, so it shouldn't be overstated that Bonds' arm was so much worse than Trout's due to the fact they played different positions. Besides, Bonds averaged 10 OF assists a year in LF his first 11 years (109) while Trout is averaging 4 per season his first 8 (32) in CF. Trout has 0 assists in 759 innings in LF, while Bonds had 10 in his first 750 innings. Bonds had 10 outfield assists in CF as a rookie, Trout didn't get his 10th in CF until his 5th season. Through his first 8 years, Bonds had more assists at home (40) than Trout has to any base, let alone home (12).

Ultimately, the point is - you can't claim Bonds' arm strength was horrible based on one play - no matter how famous the play was.

 

[wazzu31]

And is throwing the most important part of defense? Hardly.

Bonds had great range and a great ability to read hit balls during his earlier years, but let's just focus on arm strength as if that's the only factor in defense.

Of course not an arm is the only thing fielding is based upon, but you cannot consider someone a great fielder when he was well below average in an attribute. But anytime you can admit you are wrong, Barry Bonds was nothing more than an average fielder, he was Derek Jeter before Jeter in terms of recognition and Johnny Damon before Johnny Damon had announcers admit that he had a noodle arm.

 

[broncosmitty]

Of course not an arm is the only thing fielding is based upon, but you cannot consider someone a great fielder when he was well below average in an attribute. But anytime you can admit you are wrong, Barry Bonds was nothing more than an average fielder, he was Derek Jeter before Jeter in terms of recognition and Johnny Damon before Johnny Damon had announcers admit that he had a noodle arm.

Puhhhhleeeezzzz

 

[Mondo Jay]

He was the modern Ted Williams.

I don't agree with your assessment. Bonds, when younger, had a very good reputation in the league as a +defender (regardless of the infamous Bream play).

Williams, to my knowledge, was not viewed the same way.

Similarly, however, many remember them both as serious assholes. Another commonality (which I am sure you are aware), is that neither ever won a World Series.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Babe Ruth was Barry Bonds and Steve Carlton all in one player. He is the GOAT and it's not even close IMO. Sure he didn't play against AA players, but there were also half the number of teams so the competition was not watered down with players who were not good enough to make one of the 16 teams. That kind of offsets the "didn't play against AA players" argument to me.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Of course not an arm is the only thing fielding is based upon, but you cannot consider someone a great fielder when he was well below average in an attribute. But anytime you can admit you are wrong, Barry Bonds was nothing more than an average fielder, he was Derek Jeter before Jeter in terms of recognition and Johnny Damon before Johnny Damon had announcers admit that he had age noodle arm.

Arm strength is the least important attribute for outfielder defense, otherwise Vlad and Raul Mondesi would be considered all-time greats defensively. Not to mention, Bonds had 12+ outfield assists in 9 different seasons, which doesn't happen by pure luck.

Jeter and Damon both had poor range for their positions, so not a good comparison to Bonds who had top tier range. Plus I don't see Damon with 9 seasons of 12+ assist, so Bonds must've be doing something better.

 

[SU Nittany Tide]

Arm strength is the least important attribute for outfielder defense, otherwise Vlad and Raul Mondesi would be considered all-time greats defensively. Not to mention, Bonds had 12+ outfield assists in 9 different seasons, which doesn't happen by pure luck.

Jeter and Damon both had poor range for their positions, so not a good comparison to Bonds who had top tier range. Plus I don't see Damon with 9 seasons of 12+ assist, so Bonds must've be doing something better.

Outfield assists are kind of a funny thing. Once you get a reputation for having a great arm, your opportunities dry up. Guys with great arms generally get a few early seasons with good numbers but then they taper off. To get a bunch of outfield assists for many years means people are continuing to run on you because they think it's the smart play.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Outfield assists are kind of a funny thing. Once you get a reputation for having a great arm, your opportunities dry up. Guys with great arms generally get a few early seasons with good numbers but then they taper off. To get a bunch of outfield assists for many years means people are continuing to run on you because they think it's the smart play.

Yes and no.....the guys with the weaker arms will generally get run on more, but the mediocre/poor fielders with weak arms typically won't rack up a lot of outfield assists. Look at the likes of Johnny Damon, Juan Pierre, Bernie Williams, Jacoby Ellsbury, Coco Crisp...not many outfield assists by those guys throughout their careers.

With Bonds, one of the things that probably helped him was his range/handling, as fielders like he was (particularly in the first half of his career) have the ability to cut off a hit ball that normally goes for a double and get the guy out at 2nd. Bonds also had the ability to get rid of the ball quickly, which helped compensate for his lack of arm strength.



Here's a vid of a Bonds assist from later in his career....getting rid of the ball quickly with an accurate throw can certainly makeup for not having the strongest arm..

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Yes and no.....the guys with the weaker arms will generally get run on more, but the mediocre/poor fielders with weak arms typically won't rack up a lot of outfield assists. Look at the likes of Johnny Damon, Juan Pierre, Bernie Williams, Jacoby Ellsbury, Coco Crisp...not many outfield assists by those guys throughout their careers.

With Bonds, one of the things that probably helped him was his range/handling, as fielders like he was (particularly in the first half of his career) have the ability to cut off a hit ball that normally goes for a double and get the guy out at 2nd. Bonds also had the ability to get rid of the ball quickly, which helped compensate for his lack of arm strength.



Here's a vid of a Bonds assist from later in his career....getting rid of the ball quickly with an accurate throw can certainly makeup for not having the strongest arm..

I didn't see anything special in that play other than the accuracy. As the announcer said he had the ball before the runner had reached third base, he was still a step away when Bonds started his throwing motion. That's usually a good indicator of how it will play out.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I didn't see anything special in that play other than the accuracy. As the announcer said he had the ball before the runner had reached third base, he was still a step away when Bonds started his throwing motion. That's usually a good indicator of how it will play out.

I'd say he got rid of the ball quickly (quicker than most do). Contrast him to someone like Vlad, who was typically slow to get rid of the ball but made up for it with his arm strength.

Here's another assist from Bonds (similar play). Both of these players he got rid of the ball quickly and threw it low (so less hangtime) and got them out on a one-hopper to home.

Looking at plays like these (both when Bonds was older), the notion by some that Bonds had some historically bad arm imo is greatly exaggerated.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'd say he got rid of the ball quickly (quicker than most do). Contrast him to someone like Vlad, who was typically slow to get rid of the ball but made up for it with his arm strength.

Here's another assist from Bonds (similar play). Both of these players he got rid of the ball quickly and threw it low (so less hangtime) and got them out on a one-hopper to home.

Looking at plays like these (both when Bonds was older), the notion by some that Bonds had some historically bad arm imo is greatly exaggerated.

I'm not trying to throw shade on BB, he's one of the best players I have ever seen. But sorry again other than accuracy, and every player can be accurate at times, I just don't see anything special there. Sure he has a quick release, faster than Vlad but he's an extreme example. That throw was money but it also came from 200 feet away.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I'm not trying to throw shade on BB, he's one of the best players I have ever seen. But sorry again other than accuracy, and every player can be accurate at times, I just don't see anything special there. Sure he has a quick release, faster than Vlad but he's an extreme example. That throw was money but it also came from 200 feet away.

These vids were probably in his mid to late 30s, so he was past his defensive prime (hard to find footage of him in his earlier years).




FWIW, here's a highlight reel of Bonds, which may not paint the whole picture since it's a select few plays, but shows the type of plays he was capable of making (the plays at 0:27 and 0:38 are very impressive outfield assists imo)

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

These vids were probably in his mid to late 30s, so he was past his defensive prime (hard to find footage of him in his earlier years).




FWIW, here's a highlight reel of Bonds, which may not paint the whole picture since it's a select few plays, but shows the type of plays he was capable of making (the plays at 0:27 and 0:38 are very impressive outfield assists imo)

You really don't need to keep supplying videos, I'm sure I can find clips of Mickey Rivers making accurate throws or Manny Ramirez making good defensive plays too. I just think Barry was an amazing hitter, a decent outfielder with a weak arm and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Every major league outfield can make a great play.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You really don't need to keep supplying videos, I'm sure I can find clips of Mickey Rivers making accurate throws or Manny Ramirez making good defensive plays too. I just think Barry was an amazing hitter, a decent outfielder with a weak arm and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Every major league outfield can make a great play.

Not every major league outfielder has a career +175 FRAA as Bonds does, so I'd call him more than just decent in the field....an FRAA that high doesn't happen by luck or by merely playing for a long time.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Not every major league outfielder has a career +175 FRAA as Bonds does, so I'd call him more than just decent in the field....an FRAA that high doesn't happen by luck or by merely playing for a long time.

the problem with bonds is that there were 2 different players... The young one, and the steroid one... The steroid one was a glorified DH and the greatest hitter of all time. The young one was a great all around player, but probably was not all time great at any specific thing...

 

[navamind]

You can not be "all-time great" at a specific thing and still be an "all-time great."

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

the problem with bonds is that there were 2 different players... The young one, and the steroid one... The steroid one was a glorified DH and the greatest hitter of all time. The young one was a great all around player, but probably was not all time great at any specific thing...

Yeah that steroid Bonds was a sight. He saw 3 hitable pitches a game and he crushed 2 of them.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You can not be "all-time great" at a specific thing and still be an "all-time great."

agreed... terrible post above... What I meant, was simply that Bonds Pre steroids was just a Great player, but he really wasn't an all time great... The steroid Bonds is the best player in baseball history....