Top 32 tournament LF Shoeless Joe vs Stargell

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Leftfield Bracket is:

1 B Bonds 5
32 L Brock 1

16 Z Wheat 3
17 S Magee 6

8 M Ramirez 11
25 M Minoso 0

9 T Raines 11
24 J Kelley 0

4 R Henderson 14
29 J Rice 0

13 B Williams 5
20 J Medwick 2

5 C Yastrzemski 7
28 B Veach 0

12 G Goslin 8
21 J Cruz 0

3 T Williams 10
30 R White 0

14 J Burkett 3
19 B Johnson 6

6 P Rose 3
27 R Kiner 5

11 F Clarke 6
22 L Gonzalez 4

2 S Musial 10
31 H Manush 0

15 J Jackson
18 W Stargell

7 E Delahanty
26 J Sheckard

10 A Simmons
23 B Downing

1 B Bonds
17 S Magee

8 M Ramirez
9 T Raines

4 R Henderson
13 B Williams

5 C Yastrzemski
12 G Goslin

3 T Williams
19 B Johnson

27 R Kiner
11 F Clarke

2 S Musial

 

[obxyankeefan]

Shoeless Joe Jackson Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Willie Stargell Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[obxyankeefan]

Do you go with the longevity of Stargell, do you not trust stats from the deadball era, or do you buy into the question of Jackson being part of the Black Sox scandal. For me you have someone that was every bit as good as Cobb was, but he was gullible and fell prey to his teammates. I wouldn't have a problem voting for Jackson against most of the top ten, so this one is pretty easy for me.

 

[calsnowskier]

Two MONSTERS.

Jackson had 4 seasons of 170 OPS+ vs 2 for Stargell. But if you look at 160+, Stargell wins 6 to 5. 120+ Has Stargell winning 17 to 11.

Stargell has a WAR7 of 38 vs. 52 for Jackson.

Gotta go with Jackson, but dayum. Hard to jet Stargell go.

And for the record, as I have mentioned in other match ups, I am ignoring the "Stank".

 

[DragonfromTO]

Do you go with the longevity of Stargell, do you not trust stats from the deadball era, or do you buy into the question of Jackson being part of the Black Sox scandal. For me you have someone that was every bit as good as Cobb was, but he was gullible and fell prey to his teammates. I wouldn't have a problem voting for Jackson against most of the top ten, so this one is pretty easy for me.

Sounds more like he felt he was victimized by not getting all of the money than by agreeing to the plan in the first place. If you want to say that lots of players were doing it and the punishment was unjust and inconsistent that's another thing, but Joe wasn't some stupid bumpkin who got tricked into doing something. He knew exactly what he was doing.
---------------
Q. Did anybody pay you any money to help throw that series in favor of Cincinnati?

A. They did.

Q. How much did they pay?

A. They promised me $20,000, and paid me five.

Q. Who paid you the $5,000?

A. Lefty Williams brought it in my room and threw it down.

Q. What did you say to Williams when he threw down the $5,000?

A. I asked him what the hell had come off here.

Q. What did he say?

A. He said Gandil said we all got a screw through Abe Attell. Gandil said that we got double crossed through Abe Attell, he got the money and refused to turn it over to him. I don't think Gandil was crossed as much as he crossed us.

 

[Villain]

Had to vote for Willie Stargell just because Vin Scully likes to tell so many stories about him.


By the way, Kevin Costner sucks, so I'm voting against the Field of Dreams too.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So here is my problem with shoeless... He had an amazing OBP, but only averaged 64 walks per season... That means he had his amazing OBP solely because of his BA, with a career .356 BA... Problem with ratio stats though, is that he only played 13 seasons... I am actually going to go stargell and i don't even think he is that great either...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

really is impossible to compare dead ball era players to eras that hit normal amount of HRs...

 

[calsnowskier]

So here is my problem with shoeless... He had an amazing OBP, but only averaged 64 walks per season... That means he had his amazing OBP solely because of his BA, with a career .356 BA... Problem with ratio stats though, is that he only played 13 seasons... I am actually going to go stargell and i don't even think he is that great either...

I dont look at career stats that much. I like to look at OPS+ on a seasonal basis and look at WAR7. These strategies look at only the player when he was a stud, not his early years when he was learning or his hang-on seasons.

 

[DragonfromTO]

So here is my problem with shoeless... He had an amazing OBP, but only averaged 64 walks per season... That means he had his amazing OBP solely because of his BA, with a career .356 BA... Problem with ratio stats though, is that he only played 13 seasons... I am actually going to go stargell and i don't even think he is that great either...

I like playing the "what would he have to do?" game when looking at guys with disparate playing time... essentially using the differences between the stat lines to determine the value produced by the extra PAs. It's a lot trickier to do with guys who played in very different eras like these guys did, but it's usually pretty useful nevertheless.

In order to match Stargell's raw numbers over the same number of PAs Jackson would have had to hit .156/.260/.548 over the "missing" PAs, which is a pretty odd looking line but also one that has value.

If we use bbref's "neutralized" numbers instead this becomes .157/.269/.590. Or if we compare them more simply using a weighted average of their OPS+ (at least this offsets some of the era difference) we get 110 for the "missing" OPS+. No matter how we slice it, those extra PAs from Stargell had value.