POLL Top 10 poll: #21 player ever

[calsnowskier]

1) Babe Ruth (defeated Willie Mays 23-9)
2) Willie Mays (defeated Barry Bonds 26-11)
3) Ted Williams (defeated Barry Bonds 18-17)
4) Barry Bonds (defeated Hank Aaron and Ty Cobb 20-11-8)
5) Hank Aaron (defeated Ty Cobb 17-16)
6) Ty Cobb (defeated Lou Gehrig 24-9)
7) Lou Gehrig (defeated Walter Johnson 19-10)
8) Mickey Mantle (defeated Walter Johnson 17-12)
9) Walter Johnson (defeated Stan Musial and Rogers Hornsby 18-7-3)
10) Stan Musial (defeated Rogers Hornsby 15-10)
11) Rogers Hornsby (defeated H. Wagner, R. Henderson, M. Schmidt and R. Clemens 15-4-3-2-1)
12) Honus Wagner (defeated Roger Clemens 19-8)
13) Mike Schmidt (defeated Roger Clemens 16-12)
14) Rickey Henderson (defeated Roger Clemens 17-13)
15) Roger Clemens (defeated Ken Griffey Jr 16-14)
16) Randy Johnson (defeated Tris Speaker 16-11)
17) Tris Speaker (defeated Greg Maddux 18-12)
18) Greg Maddux (defeated Albert Pujols 17-9)
19) Joe DiMaggio (defeated Albert Pujols 17-13)
20) Albert Pujols (defeated Pedro Martinez 16-14)

Who is the #21 player ever? This poll will close Sunday AM.

VOTE FOR 3!!

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[MilkSpiller22]

there are 5 or 6 players I don't mind being the 21... but Lefty Grove is who I am going to stump for now...

he has the most seasons ever of being the best pitcher in baseball..

9 seasons with the best ERA, 8 seasons with the best WAR, 9 seasons with the best ERA+... those are most seasons of any pitcher...

he has 5 seasons with best WHIP, which ties him for 6th best of all time... and 7 seasons with best SO, that is tied for 4th best overall

no player has better DOMINANCE LONGEVITY...


he also has 2 WS rings and was very good in the post season...

honestly, he should have been voted for before Randy Johnson and Maddux... he is the clear 3rd best pitcher of all time...

 

[LHG]

Updated for #19:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)
18) Greg Maddux (1986-2008)
19) Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1927 - 6
1928 - 5
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 3
1938 - 2
1939 - 3
1940 - 2
1941-1950 - 3
1951 - 5
1952-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 5
1988-1989 - 6
1990-2003 - 5
2004-2007 - 4
2008 - 2
2009 - 1
2010-2024 - 0

Updated for #20:
1) Babe Ruth (1914-1935)
2) Willie Mays (1951-1973)
3) Ted Williams (1939-1960)
4) Barry Bonds (1986-2007)
5) Hank Aaron (1954-1976)
6) Ty Cobb (1905-1928)
7) Lou Gehrig (1923-1939)
8) Mickey Mantle (1951-1968)
9) Walter Johnson (1907-1927)
10) Stan Musial (1941-1963)
11) Rogers Hornsby (1915-1937)
12) Honus Wagner (1897-1917)
13) Mike Schmidt (1972-1989)
14) Rickey Henderson (1979-2003)
15) Roger Clemens (1984-2007)
16) Randy Johnson (1988-2009)
17) Tris Speaker (1907-1928)
18) Greg Maddux (1986-2008)
19) Joe DiMaggio (1936-1951)
20) Albert Pujols (2001-2022)

1876-1896 - 0
1897-1904 - 1
1905-1906 - 2
1907-1913 - 4
1914 - 5
1915-1917 - 6
1918-1922 - 5
1923-1927 - 6
1928 - 5
1929-1935 - 3
1936-1937 - 3
1938 - 2
1939 - 3
1940 - 2
1941-1950 - 3
1951 - 5
1952-1953 - 4
1954-1960 - 5
1961-1963 - 4
1964-1968 - 3
1969-1971 - 2
1972-1973 - 3
1974-1976 - 2
1977-1978 - 1
1979-1983 - 2
1984-1985 - 3
1986-1987 - 5
1988-1989 - 6
1990-2000 - 5
2001-2003 - 6
2004-2007 - 5
2008 - 3
2009 - 2
2010-2022 - 1
2023-2024 - 0

 

[LHG]

The way the votes have been going recently, it seems like many are getting lazy and just continuing to vote for the players we saw during our lifetimes. I want to encourage everyone to continue to take this seriously and dig into all the eras. There are many worthy players throughout the different eras of this game for this vote. Don't let recency bias make you blind to good players from before your time.

 

[Clayton]

The way the votes have been going recently, it seems like many are getting lazy and just continuing to vote for the players we saw during our lifetimes. I want to encourage everyone to continue to take this seriously and dig into all the eras. There are many worthy players throughout the different eras of this game for this vote. Don't let recency bias make you blind to good players from before your time.

Aren't you voting for Trout?

 

[LHG]

Aren't you voting for Trout?

One of my votes, yes. Not saying that modern players aren't deserving of consideration but the last runoff was all guys from the 90s/00s. It is my subjective opinion, but it seems like, as a group, we are just going with who we saw now and discounting anyone before then (unless they have a big name we've heard of - DiMaggio, Koufax, etc).

 

[MilkSpiller22]

One of my votes, yes. Not saying that modern players aren't deserving of consideration but the last runoff was all guys from the 90s/00s. It is my subjective opinion, but it seems like, as a group, we are just going with who we saw now and discounting anyone before then (unless they have a big name we've heard of - DiMaggio, Koufax, etc).

Pujols and Pedro were deserving... I agree about others... mostly Griffey!!

 

[Clayton]

One of my votes, yes. Not saying that modern players aren't deserving of consideration but the last runoff was all guys from the 90s/00s. It is my subjective opinion, but it seems like, as a group, we are just going with who we saw now and discounting anyone before then (unless they have a big name we've heard of - DiMaggio, Koufax, etc).

The era spread isn't too bad right now. I do think we need a Frank Robinson and a Trout in here shortly but as a whole it looks reasonable imo

 

[LHG]

Here are the top 10 guys on my radar, sorted by era:

Cy Young 1890 - 1911
CY every day of his life (no accolades given during his career)
Bold: ERA 2, K 2, WHIP 7, IP 2, K/BB 11; All Time wins leader
511-315 W-L
2803/1217 K/BB
815/749 GS/CG
7356.0 IP

Nap Lajoie (2B) 1896-1916
2 down ballot MVP (introduced late in his career), no ASG were around during his career
106.9 WAR, 60.1 WAR7
Bold: R 1, H 4, 2B 5, HR 1, RBI 3, WAR 6
OPS+ buckets
190 - 3
180 - 0
170 - 1
160 - 3
150 - 2
140 - 3
130 - 4

Christy Matthewson 1900-1916
2 top 5 MVP, 2 down ballot MVP (Cy Young awards did not exist in his career)
Bold: W 4, IP 1, K 5, ERA+ 6, WHIP 4, K/BB 9
373-188 W-L
2507/848 K/BB
552/435 GS/CG
4788.2 IP

Eddie Collins (2B) 1906-1930 (career was really 1908-1926)
1 MVP, 5 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP
124.3 WAR, 64.3 WAR7
Bold: SB 4, R 3, WAR 1
OPS+ buckets
190 - 0
180 - 0
170 - 2
160 - 3
150 - 2
140 - 3
130 - 3
120 - 4

Grover Alexander 1911-1930
1 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 4 down ballot MVP (Cy Young awards did not exist in his career)
Bold: W 5, ERA+ 4, IP 7, K 6, WHIP 5, K/BB 2
373-208 W-L
2198/951 K/BB
600/436 GS/CG
5190 IP

Lefty Grove 1925 - 1941
1 MVP, 1 top 5 MVP, 2 top 10 MVP, 5 more season w MVP votes (Cy Young Award wasn't yet invented during his career)
Bold: ERA 9, K 6, WHIP 5, IP 0, K/BB 8
300-141 W-L
2266/1187 K/BB
457/298 GS/CG
3940.2 IP

Mel Ott (RF) 1926-1947
2 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 MVP, 7 down ballot MVP, 11 ASG
110.9 WAR, 53.9 WAR7
Bold: R 2, HR 6, RBI 1, WAR 2
OPS+ buckets
190 - 0
180 - 0
170 - 5
160 - 3
150 - 6
140 - 0
130 - 4

Frank Robinson (RF-LF) 1956-1976
2 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 down ballot MVP, ROY, 12 ASG
107.2 WAR, 52.8 WAR7
Bold: R 3, 2B 1, HR 1, RBI 1, WAR 1
OPS+ buckets
190 - 1
180 - 1
170 - 1
160 - 4
150 - 6
140 - 2
130 - 2

Alex Rodriguez (SS-3B) 1994-2016
3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 down ballot MVP, 14 ASG
117.6 WAR, 64.3 WAR7
Bold: R 5, H 1, 2B 1, HR 5, RBI 2, OPS+ 2, WAR 6
OPS+ buckets
190 - 0
180 - 0
170 - 2
160 - 3
150 - 2
140 - 1
130 - 5
120 - 3

Mike Trout (CF) 2011 - current
3 MVP, 6 top 5 MVP, ROY, 11 ASG
86.2 WAR, 65.1 WAR7
Bold: R 4, RBI 1, SB 1, BB 3, TB 1, WAR 5
OPS+ buckets
190 - 1
180 - 2
170 - 4
160 - 3

 

[calsnowskier]

The way the votes have been going recently, it seems like many are getting lazy and just continuing to vote for the players we saw during our lifetimes. I want to encourage everyone to continue to take this seriously and dig into all the eras. There are many worthy players throughout the different eras of this game for this vote. Don't let recency bias make you blind to good players from before your time.

What recent placement is so bad? Pujols? Maddux? Johnson? Clemens?

I agree regarding Griffey, but he should be getting legit consideration in the next 5 slots or so. And he HASNT been placed, so who cares?

I think there are still some “recent“ names that need serious consideration in the next 10-15 slots. Boggs, Sandburg, Ripken, Trout, Pedro, Kershaw, IRod, Beltre…

Other players that need more love than they have been getting, imho, are…. Ott, Young, Robinson, Lefty, Collins, Kaline, Bench/Berra…

 

[MilkSpiller22]

What recent placement is so bad? Pujols? Maddux? Johnson? Clemens?

I agree regarding Griffey, but he should be getting legit consideration in the next 5 slots or so. And he HASNT been placed, so who cares?

I think there are still some “recent“ names that need serious consideration in the next 10-15 slots. Boggs, Sandburg, Ripken, Trout, Pedro, Kershaw, IRod, Beltre…

Other players that need more love than they have been getting, imho, are…. Ott, Young, Robinson, Lefty, Collins, Kaline, Bench/Berra…

Even verlander. I mean not yet. But I do see him as a top 15 SP. if not top 10

 

[LHG]

What recent placement is so bad? Pujols? Maddux? Johnson? Clemens?

I agree regarding Griffey, but he should be getting legit consideration in the next 5 slots or so. And he HASNT been placed, so who cares?

I think there are still some “recent“ names that need serious consideration in the next 10-15 slots. Boggs, Sandburg, Ripken, Trout, Pedro, Kershaw, IRod, Beltre…

Other players that need more love than they have been getting, imho, are…. Ott, Young, Robinson, Lefty, Collins, Kaline, Bench/Berra…

I'm talking more about a focus on more recent players in general. I think Pujols, Maddux and Johnson are a little high but not terribly so. I agree that some of the guys you listed also need to be considered (Trout, Pedro, Boggs) but others have a few guys from earlier eras that need serious consideration first.
Mainly, I'm thinking about most of the guys you mentioned that need more love as a few are on my list I gave above (Young, Ott, Grove, Collins, Robinson). I'm afraid they'll just keep getting swept under the rug for guys who have passed the eye test but voters' eyes have been on them.

 

[calsnowskier]

I'm talking more about a focus on more recent players in general. I think Pujols, Maddux and Johnson are a little high but not terribly so. I agree that some of the guys you listed also need to be considered (Trout, Pedro, Boggs) but others have a few guys from earlier eras that need serious consideration first.
Mainly, I'm thinking about most of the guys you mentioned that need more love as a few are on my list I gave above (Young, Ott, Grove, Collins, Robinson). I'm afraid they'll just keep getting swept under the rug for guys who have passed the eye test but voters' eyes have been on them.

I just don’t see it. Until we have actual placements that don’t make sense, I don’t think there is anything to worry about yet.

We just placed DiMaggio at 19. Foxx will get placed at 21 or 22. Lefty will probably get placed 23. Pedro, imho, deserves to be the next pitcher placed.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'm talking more about a focus on more recent players in general. I think Pujols, Maddux and Johnson are a little high but not terribly so. I agree that some of the guys you listed also need to be considered (Trout, Pedro, Boggs) but others have a few guys from earlier eras that need serious consideration first.
Mainly, I'm thinking about most of the guys you mentioned that need more love as a few are on my list I gave above (Young, Ott, Grove, Collins, Robinson). I'm afraid they'll just keep getting swept under the rug for guys who have passed the eye test but voters' eyes have been on them.

I think you are showing too much love to some of the older guys. And in no way are any of those offensive guys better than pujols.

Also young I truly don’t think is a top 10 pitcher. Even if he is, he is definitely a bottom of the 10 pitcher.

Grove I do agree about. Which I have stated in my earlier post. I have grove as the THIRD best pitcher of all time.

But I also have Pedro over maddux. So i would not be upset with him being chosen.

The only offensive player who i have in the top 20 who is not yet picked is AROD. but I am ok with the arod hate pushing him down.

Trout, I just can’t put him above pujols. Not yet at least.

Really I think we have made only ONE mistake so far where the player does not belong at all. And that is DiMaggio.

 

[LHG]

I am shocked that Miguel Cabrera has not received one vote so far! Shocked, I tell you, shocked!

 

[calsnowskier]

I am shocked that Miguel Cabrera has not received one vote so far! Shocked, I tell you, shocked!

He is a notch below Trout. I suspect he is somewhere in the 35-45 range, maybe?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He is a notch below Trout. I suspect he is somewhere in the 35-45 range, maybe?

probably below that.. he was only seen as a great hitter... but not much outside of that... and he doesn't really have legend status... mostly because his one WS was with the marlins, and nobody likes the marlins... and it was also his rookie season, where he was not even the reason they won...