POLL Top 10 poll #12: #12 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for #12 player in baseball history. Poll closes on Saturday AM. If someone does not finish with 50%+1, another runoff will be run.

@navamind @LHG @Stokes1931 @steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule @Shanemansj13 @jarntt @redseat @black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues @Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22 @chappee11 @CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy @Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex @Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte @nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu @Robotech @kcden @jwolt92 @Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab @DorianRo @socaljim242 @PolarVortex @msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin @catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1 @obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu @Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega @blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12 @mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2 @Stakesarehigh

 

[calsnowskier]

Wagner (SS) 1898 - 1916 (3 top 10 MVP — only 3 seasons during his career with MVP voting)

131.0 WAR, 65.5 WAR7, (bolds) 2B - 7, 3B - 3, RBI - 4, SB - 5, OPS - 8

OPS+ buckets

200 - 1
180 - 2
160 - 7
140 - 3
120 - 3

Henderson (LF) 1980 - 2001 (1 MVP, 5 top 10 MVP, 1 GG, 10 ASG, 3 SS)

111.1, 57.6, R - 5, SB -12, BB - 4, OPS - 1, all time SB, all time R

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
140 - 6
120 - 8

Schmidt (3B) 1973 - 1988 (3 MVP, 6 top 10 MVP, 10 GG, 12 ASG, 6 SS)

106.9, 58.9, R - 1, HR - 8, RBI - 4, BB - 4, OPS - 5, TB - 3

OPS+ buckets

180 - 1
160 - 2
140 - 9
120 - 1

 

[Clayton]

Clemens is 8th overall in WAR, 4th highest ERA+7 peak of pitchers. Good mix of accumulation and peak.

Wagner is 10th all time in WAR. Not sure about how I feel about his era compared to modern players.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

if it wasnt for steroids stigma, this would be an easy choice for everyone...


Clemens is an easy choice for me, as i dont really care about the steroids...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Clemens is 8th overall in WAR, 4th highest ERA+7 peak of pitchers. Good mix of accumulation and peak.

Wagner is 10th all time in WAR. Not sure about how I feel about his era compared to modern players.

although i do agree, i think we need to point out that there was a statistical boom during the steroid era... WAR, OPS+,
BA, OBP, etc.. were all higher during this period...


the adjustments of WAR and OPS+ were not able to measure the boom well enough...

not sure if it is a coincidence that 4 of the top 10 pitchers were all late 80s-early 2000s pitchers... Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, Pedro

 

[calsnowskier]

While I am fairly certain where my vote is going, I am 100% AOK with all 4 noms. Clemens is the top pitcher. Wagner is the top SS. Schmidt is the top 3B. Henderson is the top available unicorn (not taking “potential” into account).

 

[Clayton]

not sure if it is a coincidence that 4 of the top 10 pitchers were all late 80s-early 2000s pitchers... Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, Pedro

I think there might be some coincidence if you just simply remove Clemens from the equation. That said, its hard to know for certain.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think there might be some coincidence if you just simply remove Clemens from the equation. That said, its hard to know for certain.

im not saying anyone besides Clemens took steroids... i am just acknowedging the statistic boom... and how it was not measured well... so the elite players whether pitchers or hitters, were able to take advantage of the adjusted stats...

 

[Clayton]

im not saying anyone besides Clemens took steroids... i am just acknowedging the statistic boom... and how it was not measured well... so the elite players whether pitchers or hitters, were able to take advantage of the adjusted stats...

Kershaw is kinda also in that mix with some statistics. He just likely isnt going to get brought up because of his postseasons

 

[MilkSpiller22]

While I am fairly certain where my vote is going, I am 100% AOK with all 4 noms. Clemens is the top pitcher. Wagner is the top SS. Schmidt is the top 3B. Henderson is the top available unicorn (not taking “potential” into account).

honus is my clear last place of these 4... and i do not consider Honus as the best SS of all time...

 

[calsnowskier]

honus is my clear last place of these 4... and i do not consider Honus as the best SS of all time...

His main competition didn’t play baseball.

 

[redseat]

Runoff for #12 player in baseball history. Poll closes on Saturday AM. If someone does not finish with 50%+1, another runoff will be run.

@navamind @LHG @Stokes1931 @steveringo @broncosmitty @packerzrule @Shanemansj13 @jarntt @redseat @black francis @molsaniceman @Fountain City Blues @Used 2 B Hu @MilkSpiller22 @chappee11 @CitySushi @Clayton @UK Cowboy @Beengay fudgepackers @Hbomb @Maximus Rex @Pure Steel @jon2tanman @Boglodyte @nynasty @Hank Kingsley @Wamu @Robotech @kcden @jwolt92 @Sportsguy9695 @DHoey @chillerdab @DorianRo @socaljim242 @PolarVortex @msgkings322 @Cedrique @BigFin @catman @omarsrevenge @rmilia1 @obxyankeefan @femurov @Nosferatu @Maverick426h @TheGoodMan19 @Bodega @blstoker @Diamondeye @trojanfan12 @mr.hockey4242 @Janus @VikingFan2k2 @Stakesarehigh

Voted

 

[jon2tanman]

I would wonder what Randy Johnsons stats would be if he took steroids. That would be scary.

 

[DHoey]

Cal Ripken > Honus

Clemens winning this is just gross.

 

[Clayton]

Clemens winning this is just gross.

If Schmidt was the one in 2nd place I might consider switching my vote. Not for Henderson

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I would wonder what Randy Johnsons stats would be if he took steroids. That would be scary.

maybe the same... his best seasons were in his mid to late 30s ...

 

[LHG]

If Schmidt was the one in 2nd place I might consider switching my vote. Not for Henderson

The fact that Henderson is getting so much traction this high sours this whole thing. Sure, I didn't agree some position rankings but not seemed so egregious as to be dumb. If Henderson gets anywhere on the top 20, I'm changing my mind regarding that. He is way over hyped over probably 10 to 15 players who should be above him.

 

[calsnowskier]

The fact that Henderson is getting so much traction this high sours this whole thing. Sure, I didn't agree some position rankings but not seemed so egregious as to be dumb. If Henderson gets anywhere on the top 20, I'm changing my mind regarding that. He is way over hyped over probably 10 to 15 players who should be above him.

I completely disagree. 12 may be too early for him, sure, but it isn’t as bad Hornsby’s ranking was bad. His low ranking would be worse than Henderson’s high ranking if he were placed here.

 

[LHG]

I completely disagree. 12 may be too early for him, sure, but it isn’t as bad Hornsby’s ranking was bad. His low ranking would be worse than Henderson’s high ranking if he were placed here.

I think Cy Young still unranked is pretty bad (forgot about that). But we are far apart on our opinions of Henderson. He was Top 50 good but I just do not see him being this good compared to the entire history of MLB.

 

[Clayton]

The fact that Henderson is getting so much traction this high sours this whole thing. Sure, I didn't agree some position rankings but not seemed so egregious as to be dumb. If Henderson gets anywhere on the top 20, I'm changing my mind regarding that. He is way over hyped over probably 10 to 15 players who should be above him.

It looks like he is going 12-15. In terms of Yankees, I have DiMaggio ahead of him and I'm a bit surprised at his lack of traction.