Top 10 poll #10: #10 player in history - Runoff

[Clayton]

I have made my pitch for him many times. And I feel the PRIMARY pitch against him (no pun intended) is a complete non factor for me.

and it has nothing to do with WAR. WAR, for pitching, should only be used at the brainstorm stage as you are throwing names up on the whiteboard.

ERA+ would point to Pedro. I think a lot of these pitchers are going to be pretty close together if WAR isnt a factor.

 

[LHG]

ERA+ would point to Pedro. I think a lot of these pitchers are going to be pretty close together if WAR isnt a factor.

Yes, he does have the highest ERA+ among pitchers. Interestingly, Lefty Grove, who is not in the conversation at all yet, is the next highest at 148.

 

[calsnowskier]

ERA+ would point to Pedro. I think a lot of these pitchers are going to be pretty close together if WAR isnt a factor.

I am not going to get too heavy in this discussion right now. It has no (very little) bearing on this spot. I think our efforts here should directed at Musial v Hornsby (though that, too, is looking to be kinda anti-climatic).

 

[calsnowskier]

I haven’t voted yet (I only vote if my vote would make a difference), but as it sits now, my vote would only cause a runoff 2. I am not sure I want to trigger that.

 

[chappee11]

Clemens had multiple primes...

but he is also a modern player, and i just cant believe that all of our best players were before 1960s(except for bonds)

and clemens is probably the best chance for that to happen....

Multiple asterisks to match the “multiple primes”, well. Clemens won’t be getting any love from me for a while. Probably closer to 20ish.

 

[calsnowskier]

Multiple asterisks to match the “multiple primes”, well. Clemens won’t be getting any love from me for a while. Probably closer to 20ish.

We need to be giving love to guys like Bagwell, Piazza, Ortiz, Aaron (oops, he is already in) or ARod instead. These paragons of virtue need to be honored before the clear cheaters like B&C.

 

[Clayton]

I am not going to get too heavy in this discussion right now. It has no (very little) bearing on this spot. I think our efforts here should directed at Musial v Hornsby (though that, too, is looking to be kinda anti-climatic).

I think Hornsby in general is getting dinged because of the era.

Musial also has the year of military service and playing his whole career for one team. If Musial had another season in there he'd be #2 in total bases and probably have Clemens WAR. Musial has more total bases than Bonds with similarish plate appearance. Certainly not the overall player that Bonds was but it does illustrate how good of an offensive player he was.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Since WAR for pitchers is being talked about, here are the career WAR for Top 20 pitchers. The numbers are WAR, WAR7, ERA+ (number of seasons in parenthesis):
Cy Young - 163.6, 78, 138 (22)
Roger Clemens - 139.2, 65.9, 143 (24)
Grover Alexander - 119.6, 69.8, 135 (20)
Kid Nichols - 116.3, 74.5, 139 (15)
Tom Seaver - 109.9, 59.3, 127 (20)
Lefty Grove - 106.8, 65.6, 148 (17)
Christy Matthewson - 106.7, 70.2, 136 (17)
Greg Maddux - 106.6, 56.3, 132 (23)
Randy Johnson - 101.1, 61.5, 135 (22)
Warren Spahn - 100.1, 51.5, 119 (21)
Phil Niekro - 95.9, 54.3, 115 (24)
Bert Blyleven - 94.5, 50.3, 118 (22)
Steve Carlton - 90.2, 54.3, 115 (24)
Gaylord Perry - 90, 52.3, 117 (22)
Bob Gibson - 89.2, 51.2, 127 (17)
Tim Keefe - 86.9, 66.4, 126 (14)
Robin Roberts - 86.1, 55.1, 113 (19)
Fergie Jenkins - 84.2, 51.4, 115 (19)
Pedro Martinez - 83.9, 58.2, 154 (18)
Mike Mussina - 82.8, 44.5, 123 (18)

you got to take the adjusted WAR if you are going to do this...

Name	WAR7Adj	S-JAWS
▼
Walter Johnson HOF	66.2	116.6
Roger Clemens	64.1	101.7
Randy Johnson HOF	60.4	80.8
Lefty Grove HOF	59.7	83.3
Pedro Martinez HOF	58.2	71.1
Greg Maddux HOF	55.6	81.1
Tom Seaver HOF	53.8	81.9
Christy Mathewson HOF	53.1	79.9
Bob Gibson HOF	52.6	70.9
Cy Young HOF	50.8	107.2
Bullet Rogan HOF	50.6	55.9
Grover Alexander HOF	50.1	84.8
Justin Verlander	50.1	65.3
Roy Halladay HOF	50.1	57.2
Clayton Kershaw	49.7	64.5
Zack Greinke	48.4	62.9
Curt Schilling	47.5	63.5
Max Scherzer	47.5	61.5
Wes Ferrell	47.5	53.8
Kid Nichols HOF	47.4	81.9
Steve Carlton HOF	46.6	68.4
Hal Newhouser HOF	45.1	53.9
Warren Spahn HOF	45	72.6
Dazzy Vance HOF	45	52.7
Johan Santana	45	48.3
Bert Blyleven HOF	44.8	69.7
Kevin Brown	44.6	56.2
Mike Mussina HOF	44.5	63.6
Phil Niekro HOF	44.3	70.1
Tom Glavine HOF	44.1	62.4
Robin Roberts HOF	43.4	64.8
Juan Marichal HOF	43.4	53.2

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and this chart is sorted by share of tops in WAR per season(first, top 5, share)

Cy Young HOF	7	14	10.2
Walter Johnson HOF	7	12	8.5
Christy Mathewson HOF	5	10	7.9
Grover Alexander HOF	5	10	7.2
Roger Clemens	4	10	7
Lefty Grove HOF	2	10	6.6
Kid Nichols HOF	4	9	6.3
Bullet Rogan HOF	4	6	5
Randy Johnson HOF	2	6	4.6
Tom Seaver HOF	1	5	4.1
Robin Roberts HOF	2	6	3.8
Greg Maddux HOF	3	3	3.7
Ed Walsh HOF	1	6	3.7
Pedro Martinez HOF	2	5	3.6
Bob Gibson HOF	3	4	3.4
Bert Blyleven HOF	1	4	3.4
Roy Halladay HOF	1	4	3.3
Eddie Plank HOF	0	4	3.2
Bob Feller HOF	2	4	3.2
Warren Spahn HOF	1	4	3.1
Hal Newhouser HOF	1	5	3
Phil Niekro HOF	1	5	3
Clayton Kershaw	2	3	2.9
Steve Carlton HOF	2	3	2.9
Dazzy Vance HOF	1	4	2.8
Carl Hubbell HOF	2	4	2.7
Wes Ferrell	1	4	2.6
Jim Bunning HOF	0	5	2.6
Gaylord Perry HOF	2	4	2.6
Justin Verlander	1	3	2.5
Johan Santana	1	4	2.3
Dave Stieb	0	3	2.3
Max Scherzer	0	3	2.2
Juan Marichal HOF	1	3	2.2
Fergie Jenkins HOF	1	3	2.2
Stan Coveleski HOF	0	3	2.1
Bret Saberhagen	1	4	2.1
Curt Schilling	0	3	1.9
Zack Greinke	1	2	1.8
Kevin Brown	1	2	1.8
Clark Griffith HOF	0	3	1.8
Mike Mussina HOF	0	1	1.7
Urban Shocker	0	2	1.7
Rick Reuschel	1	1	1.6
David Cone	0	2	1.6
Kevin Appier	1	2	1.6
Tom Glavine HOF	1	1	1.4
Luis Tiant	0	2	1.4
Frank Viola	0	3	1.3
Mark Langston	0	2	1.2
Chris Sale	0	0	0.9

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Hornsby in general is getting dinged because of the era.

Musial also has the year of military service and playing his whole career for one team. If Musial had another season in there he'd be #2 in total bases and probably have Clemens WAR. Musial has more total bases than Bonds with similarish plate appearance. Certainly not the overall player that Bonds was but it does illustrate how good of an offensive player he was.

But he was a 1B mainly, LF secondarily. Not that 2B is a hugely defensively important position, but it is miles ahead of 1B/LF. And his numbers, imho, are MILES ahead of Musial. (C, SS, CF, 3B, 2B, RF, LF, 1B, DH)

Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Williams, Cobb, Hornsby…

The fact that Hornsby is still on the board is near criminal imho. Musial is not anywhere near discussion for #6 all time.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yes, he does have the highest ERA+ among pitchers. Interestingly, Lefty Grove, who is not in the conversation at all yet, is the next highest at 148.

there is an obvious problem with ERA+, and you can see it... Longevity kills it...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But he was a 1B mainly, LF secondarily. Not that 2B is a hugely defensively important position, but it is miles ahead of 1B/LF. And his numbers, imho, are MILES ahead of Musial.

Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Williams, Cobb, Hornsby…

The fact that Hornsby is still on the board is near criminal imho. Musial is not anywhere near discussion for #6 all time.

and how is Hornsby getting dinged by his era while Musial is not??

 

[msgkings322]

By the time the top 30 is done, we might have Bonds, Clemens, Pedro, Maddux, Pujols, ARod, Schmidt, and Henderson. Just not much up top.

Joe Morgan is up there too. And Griffey. Maybe Ripken? George Brett?

 

[calsnowskier]

there is an obvious problem with ERA+, and you can see it... Longevity kills it...

Only if you look at it as a career stat. Look at it like a bucket stat instead (akin to WAR7)

 

[MilkSpiller22]

hell, Musial is a lot like Hornsby... where Cobb passed the baton To Ruth and skipped Hornsby

Ted Williams passed the baton to Willie Mays skipping Musial

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Only if you look at it as a carrier stat. Look at it like a bucket stat instead (akin to WAR7)

of course... but most use it as a career number... and that was how it was just used in a previous post to make me post that comment...

 

[calsnowskier]

and how is Hornsby getting dinged by his era while Musial is not??

The only ding that I apply is the lack of accolades for Hornsby. Not sure why you are asking me this question…

 

[Clayton]

If we're talking about pitchers, Maddux had the 2nd and 3rd best seasons ever according to ERA+ and is known for defensive prowess.

 

[LHG]

there is an obvious problem with ERA+, and you can see it... Longevity kills it...

I wouldn't say the difference of three seasons is longevity. Whether its 17 years or 20 years, that is an awfully long career. Clemens' career was unusually long.

 

[msgkings322]

Since WAR for pitchers is being talked about, here are the career WAR for Top 20 pitchers. The numbers are WAR, WAR7, ERA+ (number of seasons in parenthesis):
Cy Young - 163.6, 78, 138 (22)
Roger Clemens - 139.2, 65.9, 143 (24)
Grover Alexander - 119.6, 69.8, 135 (20)
Kid Nichols - 116.3, 74.5, 139 (15)
Tom Seaver - 109.9, 59.3, 127 (20)
Lefty Grove - 106.8, 65.6, 148 (17)
Christy Matthewson - 106.7, 70.2, 136 (17)
Greg Maddux - 106.6, 56.3, 132 (23)
Randy Johnson - 101.1, 61.5, 135 (22)
Warren Spahn - 100.1, 51.5, 119 (21)
Phil Niekro - 95.9, 54.3, 115 (24)
Bert Blyleven - 94.5, 50.3, 118 (22)
Steve Carlton - 90.2, 54.3, 115 (24)
Gaylord Perry - 90, 52.3, 117 (22)
Bob Gibson - 89.2, 51.2, 127 (17)
Tim Keefe - 86.9, 66.4, 126 (14)
Robin Roberts - 86.1, 55.1, 113 (19)
Fergie Jenkins - 84.2, 51.4, 115 (19)
Pedro Martinez - 83.9, 58.2, 154 (18)
Mike Mussina - 82.8, 44.5, 123 (18)

Where's the leader Walter Johnson? 166.9 WAR second only to Babe Ruth