Top 10 greatest Mariners

[NWinAZ]

I still hate ARod because I still feel he is the main reason Junior didn't stay. The Mariners were negotiating both of them and were offering ARod more, the whole crash thing happened and it was a nice excuse. Junior would've been a Brave instead of a Red had Atlanta been willingly to deal Andruw Jones.

So true.

I remember the Jones offer and they said why would we trade a guy who is younger, cheaper, and at this stage better than Jr.? Can't argue that.

 

[blstoker]

So true.

I remember the Jones offer and they said why would we trade a guy who is younger, cheaper, and at this stage better than Jr.? Can't argue that.

Well, Jones was younger, and cheaper - but there was no way he was better than Griffey at the time. Now, the deal turned out good for them - but that's only in hindsight.

Man, those Cincinnati years for Griffey were brutal (injury wise). Side not - the 2000 Cincinnati Red scored at least 1 run in every game of the season. They were the first (and as far as I know, only) team to achieve that.

 

[broncosmitty]

He didn't have the special juice that gave AFraud his power. So in actuality, AFraud never truly had that power either...the juice did.

I assume he juiced in high school.

 

[NWinAZ]

I assume he juiced in high school.

Nothing he does/did would surprise me.

 

[NWinAZ]

Well, Jones was younger, and cheaper - but there was no way he was better than Griffey at the time. Now, the deal turned out good for them - but that's only in hindsight.

Man, those Cincinnati years for Griffey were brutal (injury wise). Side not - the 2000 Cincinnati Red scored at least 1 run in every game of the season. They were the first (and as far as I know, only) team to achieve that.

Griffey: 12.2 WAR from 2000-2008 with Reds
Jones: 41.4 WAR from 2000-2008 with Braves & 1 year in LA.

 

[blstoker]

Griffey: 12.2 WAR from 2000-2008 with Reds
Jones: 41.4 WAR from 2000-2008 with Braves & 1 year in LA.

Yes, but that's all in hindsight. Hell, even the Mariners couldn't screw up trades if they knew how both players would perform for the next 9 years (probably). My statement was that at the time of the trade there was no comparing which player was the better of the two,

Griffey: 30.3 WAR from 1996-1999 (Seattle)
Jones: 17.9 WAR from 1996-1999 (Atlanta)

Granted, I dislike WAR as a benchmark, as it's too inconsistent from source to source, team to team and year to year. Hell, according to WAR (baseball-reference), Randy Velarde was better in 1999 than Griffey, Edgar and ARod.

 

[Beaker]

10. Christopher Columbus
9. Ferdninan Migelian
8. Marco Polo

Wait. . .I think I missed the meaning here. . .

 

[wazzu31]

So true.

I remember the Jones offer and they said why would we trade a guy who is younger, cheaper, and at this stage better than Jr.? Can't argue that.

I just remember my uncle was from Atlanta and they were almost all but assured he was going there, and they still at the time were WS contenders. I don't blame them, he was suppose to be the next Junior.

 

[NWinAZ]

Yes, but that's all in hindsight. Hell, even the Mariners couldn't screw up trades if they knew how both players would perform for the next 9 years (probably).

But the Braves knew, so they either have a hindsight machine or they knew talent.

 

[NWinAZ]

My statement was that at the time of the trade there was no comparing which player was the better of the two,

Evaluating players purely on what they did vs what are they projected to do is a costly way of doing baseball business.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Trout has been Injury free until this season. (DL worthy injuries anyway. Cabrera avoided that until he was 33.)Athletic ability a huge part of his game. His speed and ability to bounce back has been there because of youth. He gets a ton of infield hits(only 6 this year). He's only a couple years away from the point when normal humans start to feel the accumulation of nicks and dings and just age.

ARod was a psychopath with his pursuit to avoid aging and maintain his body. I'm not knocking Trouts desire in any way what so ever. But he won't have all the means available to him that ARod did to keep his body at near 100%.

The 90's and 00's saw guys maintaining and improving as players in their mid thirties and even late thirties. That isn't going to happen for Trout.

All valid points. I can't argue with any of that.

 

[seahawksfan234]

He didn't have the special juice that gave AFraud his power. So in actuality, AFraud never truly had that power either...the juice did.

But did A-Rod start juicing while he was in Seattle?

His explosion in HRs came after he left Seattle while he was in Texas. I could be wrong but I don't believe he ever (got caught) juicing while he was in Seattle. I recall him saying that the pressure of living up to his contract is what made him start juicing in Texas.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I still hate ARod because I still feel he is the main reason Junior didn't stay. The Mariners were negotiating both of them and were offering ARod more, the whole crash thing happened and it was a nice excuse. Junior would've been a Brave instead of a Red had Atlanta been willingly to deal Andruw Jones.

That's interesting. I was just a kid back then so I didn't know any of that.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Evaluating players purely on what they did vs what are they projected to do is a costly way of doing baseball business.

I don't think it would've been reasonable to expect Griffey to fall off like he did. A good talent evaluator would be able to project diminishing skills, which didn't appear to be the issue with Griffey - the problem was injuries. His 162 game average from 2000-2007 was .273/.363/.363 with 38 HRs 106 RBIs. Had he stayed healthy, it would've been a pretty good acquisition. Hell, it's easy to forget that he actually had a pretty good season in 2007 when he hit 30 HRs at 37 years old.

 

[blstoker]

Evaluating players purely on what they did vs what are they projected to do is a costly way of doing baseball business.

Of course it is. But, it isn't an exact science of how a player will produce in the future.

The Braves didn't "know" anything about how this was going to play out. Griffey had one major thing against him going into the deal with Atlanta - and that was age. No matter what you do - you can't stop aging. He was 7 years older, $5 million more expensive and the odds were that his body would break down before Jones' did. And it did, in just the second season into the deal.

Atlanta couldn't trade one of their promising young talents right then, as if they had - then only Furcal would have been under the age of 28 on the entire roster (fielders - though the pitchers were not much younger). They felt that they couldn't just keep getting older if they wanted to stay competitive (something a few M's front offices could have taken note of). They gambled that Jones would only continue to get better (which I would argue he peaked in 2000) while Griffey would inevitably start to decline.

Surprisingly enough - the only real way that Jones was better during the 8 seasons he played in Atlanta and Griffey was in Cincinnati is that Jones was healthier. Over that 8 year span, Griffey's per162 numbers are surprisingly similar to Jones' despite losing nearly 3 years to injuries, as well as losing physical abilities due to age and injury as well as losing plate appearances due to injury concerns keeping him from starting during some stretches. But, despite all the injuries - Griffey's numbers didn't truly start to diminish until 2008 - pretty much the same times as Jones'.

I don't know why the Braves didn't want to make the deal - but I know why I wouldn't have made that deal. I also know why I wouldn't have offered the deal had I been in charge of the Mariners. The fact the Braves wouldn't make the trade (if it was ever offered) doesn't mean they had some crystal ball into the future - but would most likely be more along the lines of the M's not trading Felix Hernandez after 2008 for Roy Halladay.

 

[blstoker]

I don't think it would've been reasonable to expect Griffey to fall off like he did. A good talent evaluator would be able to project diminishing skills, which didn't appear to be the issue with Griffey - the problem was injuries. His 162 game average from 2000-2007 was .273/.363/.363 with 38 HRs 106 RBIs. Had he stayed healthy, it would've been a pretty good acquisition. Hell, it's easy to forget that he actually had a pretty good season in 2007 when he hit 30 HRs at 37 years old.

I was putting this exact sentiment into my novel at the time you posted this....

 

[seahawksfan234]

Of course it is. But, it isn't an exact science of how a player will produce in the future.

The Braves didn't "know" anything about how this was going to play out. Griffey had one major thing against him going into the deal with Atlanta - and that was age. No matter what you do - you can't stop aging. He was 7 years older, $5 million more expensive and the odds were that his body would break down before Jones' did. And it did, in just the second season into the deal.

Atlanta couldn't trade one of their promising young talents right then, as if they had - then only Furcal would have been under the age of 28 on the entire roster (fielders - though the pitchers were not much younger). They felt that they couldn't just keep getting older if they wanted to stay competitive (something a few M's front offices could have taken note of). They gambled that Jones would only continue to get better (which I would argue he peaked in 2000) while Griffey would inevitably start to decline.

Surprisingly enough - the only real way that Jones was better during the 8 seasons he played in Atlanta and Griffey was in Cincinnati is that Jones was healthier. Over that 8 year span, Griffey's per162 numbers are surprisingly similar to Jones' despite losing nearly 3 years to injuries, as well as losing physical abilities due to age and injury as well as losing plate appearances due to injury concerns keeping him from starting during some stretches. But, despite all the injuries - Griffey's numbers didn't truly start to diminish until 2008 - pretty much the same times as Jones'.

I don't know why the Braves didn't want to make the deal - but I know why I wouldn't have made that deal. I also know why I wouldn't have offered the deal had I been in charge of the Mariners. The fact the Braves wouldn't make the trade (if it was ever offered) doesn't mean they had some crystal ball into the future - but would most likely be more along the lines of the M's not trading Felix Hernandez after 2008 for Roy Halladay.

Haha, pointed out the same thing I did.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I was putting this exact sentiment into my novel at the time you posted this....

This is weird.

 

[NWinAZ]

I don't think it would've been reasonable to expect Griffey to fall off like he did. A good talent evaluator would be able to project diminishing skills, which didn't appear to be the issue with Griffey - the problem was injuries. His 162 game average from 2000-2007 was .273/.363/.363 with 38 HRs 106 RBIs. Had he stayed healthy, it would've been a pretty good acquisition. Hell, it's easy to forget that he actually had a pretty good season in 2007 when he hit 30 HRs at 37 years old.

Health history is part (a big part) of the evaluation though. He did it when he was young and it doesn't get easier to stay healthy as you get older plus the fact that he was never known for his vigorous workout regime. Health factors into numbers and not just because of lack of games played but it also takes away from power and speed.

 

[NWinAZ]

The Braves didn't "know" anything about how this was going to play out. Griffey had one major thing against him going into the deal with Atlanta - and that was age. No matter what you do - you can't stop aging. He was 7 years older, $5 million more expensive and the odds were that his body would break down before Jones' did. And it did, in just the second season into the deal.

No shit! That was the factor and you can't negate that no matter how much you love Griffey. They were dead on and said at the time so it wasn't hindsight. It really isn't that hard to understand unless you close your eyes and plug your ears.