Thoughts on Last Night

[CrashDavisSports]

Damn..... That's hard to do when you didn't throw a pick.

Especially since he had 157 yards passing, over 60% completion and 7.4 avg per pass attempt.

Sounds kinda like a bullshit scoring on Dalton last week. But it is what it is. He was working behind the 8 ball the entire half.

 

[DanBengalfan]

maybe they figured he should have done better against the Cardinals.

 

[ckhokie]

Per PFF, Dalton was a -1.9.

In a single half of play. His play was very subpar.

So my eyes didn't lie to me.

Spin 60% any way you want, D-boy was nothing more than lackluster the entire 1st half, and by no means did he pass an eye test. Whatever advanced statistics PFF is using these days for QBs show that too.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

So my eyes didn't lie to me.

Spin 60% any way you want, D-boy was nothing more than lackluster the entire 1st half, and by no means did he pass an eye test. Whatever advanced statistics PFF is using these days for QBs show that too.

It must be a pay service to know each player not highlighted by the general article. I couldn't find Dalton's score.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I heard Terrance Newman had a negative score for the game too. Granted, two passes going his direction should have been TD's, but neither one were thanks to a bump that threw off timing on the first pass play. Second, there was a little miscommunication in the secondary he said. Maybe that was his fault in the miscommunication part, but the defense has only allowed 1 1st down so far in the preseason out of 12 attempts. He also had a pick 6. So how accurate are the numbers for PFF? Makes you think negative numbers for players at times is really not that bad of a game, when one of your key pieces to your secondary who has helped stop 11 of 12 first downs and has a pick 6 is getting negative scores.

 

[flamingrey]

Newman probably didn't get much credit, if any, for the pick 6 as he did nothing to make it happen. He didn't make a great play on the ball or anything. He squatted in position where he was supposed to be, and the ball was thrown directly to him with no receiver in between due to miscommunication. Then he proceeded to run untouched into the endzone. Another way to look at it is there isn't a player in the league that doesn't make the same play in his place. Maybe he got a + score for it, maybe not.

He was beat on the first TD pass to Floyd. Even with the bump, the ball went off Floyd's hands.

He was also beat badly on the 2nd TD pass to Floyd. Maybe he should've had safety help over top, but regardless, he was nowhere near the receiver. He gambled and lost. Regardless of the end result of the play, he gets a bad score on the play for being beat.

Spin it however you like, but a negative rating is a negative rating. Overall, there are more bad plays than good plays. He was a -1.0 with a -1.6 in pass coverage and +0.6 against the run.

 

[bengaldoug]

Newman probably didn't get much credit, if any, for the pick 6 as he did nothing to make it happen. He didn't make a great play on the ball or anything. He squatted in position where he was supposed to be, and the ball was thrown directly to him with no receiver in between due to miscommunication. Then he proceeded to run untouched into the endzone. Another way to look at it is there isn't a player in the league that doesn't make the same play in his place. Maybe he got a + score for it, maybe not.

He was beat on the first TD pass to Floyd. Even with the bump, the ball went off Floyd's hands.

He was also beat badly on the 2nd TD pass to Floyd. Maybe he should've had safety help over top, but regardless, he was nowhere near the receiver. He gambled and lost. Regardless of the end result of the play, he gets a bad score on the play for being beat.
Spin it however you like, but a negative rating is a negative rating. Overall, there are more bad plays than good plays. He was a -1.0 with a -1.6 in pass coverage and +0.6 against the run.

This is why I like the PFF ratings. They point out all mistakes and poor plays no matter the final team result of the play, and they don't award unwarranted credit for just simply being the beneficiary of good fortune. They are the best reflectors of personal play I have ever found.

 

[alf8478]

/

This is why I like the PFF ratings. They point out all mistakes and poor plays no matter the final team result of the play, and they don't award unwarranted credit for just simply being the beneficiary of good fortune. They are the best reflectors of personal play I have ever found.

Mike Zimmer disagrees.

http://blogs.twincities.com/vikings/2014/08/25/vikings-coach-mike-zimmer-rips-pro-football-focus-website

 

[bengaldoug]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/08/24/refo-bengals-cardinals-preseason-week-3/

Here's the PFF refocus article on the Arizona game.....

 

[bengaldoug]

/

Mike Zimmer disagrees.

http://blogs.twincities.com/vikings/2014/08/25/vikings-coach-mike-zimmer-rips-pro-football-focus-website

I doubt you'll find many coaches that approve of the PFF ratings because they make public things that teams like to keep private, among other things.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

I doubt you'll find many coaches that approve of the PFF ratings because they make public things that teams like to keep private, among other things.

Now you are just assuming shit man. Be honest, you have no idea, you just like the fact that some place, somewhere, holds a player accountable even if the accountability is unwarranted, positive or negative.

PFF is trying to make their site more viable of a source of information, to sell services, to make money. This is their system strictly, and an average fan like myself, or even them for that instance do not know what the assignments are. They built up point values based off what THEY THINK happened during that play. If they were close to actual accountability, then I doubt you have a coach go out of his way to speak against it.

It is a good starting point, but I am not going to say their word is Gospel. They are a starting mark for data, which may or may not be flawed, and who knows by how much.

 

[bengaldoug]

Now you are just assuming shit man. Be honest, you have no idea, you just like the fact that some place, somewhere, holds a player accountable even if the accountability is unwarranted, positive or negative.

PFF is trying to make their site more viable of a source of information, to sell services, to make money. This is their system strictly, and an average fan like myself, or even them for that instance do not know what the assignments are. They built up point values based off what THEY THINK happened during that play. If they were close to actual accountability, then I doubt you have a coach go out of his way to speak against it.

It is a good starting point, but I am not going to say their word is Gospel. They are a starting mark for data, which may or may not be flawed, and who knows by how much.

You don't think the ratings may expose a player teams are trying to hide? I do. Jmho of course.......

 

[CrashDavisSports]

You don't think the ratings may expose a player teams are trying to hide? I do. Jmho of course.......

I don't really know either. It is safe to assume neither one of us know the truth, and IMO, I doubt if it is any different from a source "outside" the NFL.

 

[Cincyfan78]

I believe I heard that several teams use them for their analytics. Collinsworth just became an investor with them, as he backs what they do and how they do it.

However, I will say that sometimes, it's hard to get every grade 100%. Sure, when looking at a specific play it may seem like Dalton (or any QB) made a bad read, etc..etc..but I am sure that there are times where the read was actually correct per the actual play called, or audible. Without actually knowing each play 100%, there is still a lot of subjectivity with their rankings. However, I think they do a good job, and more often that not, they are pretty close to what I think the actual grades should be.

Maybe some things that could be tweaked would be how certain things are weighted. Such as, how Palmer and Dalton had similar grades, yet Dalton was clearly better (ok, ok, he didn't suck as hard as Palmer did, I digress). Sure, some of the reads may have been poor, but ultimately, they didn't cost the team. Palmer's mistake did. Add in more completions, more yards, and you wonder what is weighted more...the pick 6 or a poor decision that didn't hurt the team.

 

[cincygrad]

I believe I heard that several teams use them for their analytics. Collinsworth just became an investor with them, as he backs what they do and how they do it.

However, I will say that sometimes, it's hard to get every grade 100%. Sure, when looking at a specific play it may seem like Dalton (or any QB) made a bad read, etc..etc..but I am sure that there are times where the read was actually correct per the actual play called, or audible. Without actually knowing each play 100%, there is still a lot of subjectivity with their rankings. However, I think they do a good job, and more often that not, they are pretty close to what I think the actual grades should be.

Maybe some things that could be tweaked would be how certain things are weighted. Such as, how Palmer and Dalton had similar grades, yet Dalton was clearly better (ok, ok, he didn't suck as hard as Palmer did, I digress). Sure, some of the reads may have been poor, but ultimately, they didn't cost the team. Palmer's mistake did. Add in more completions, more yards, and you wonder what is weighted more...the pick 6 or a poor decision that didn't hurt the team.

Believe me, I'm sick of hearing about how many INTs are NOT Carson's fault....... BUT, in this case I think it's true. Arians immediately alluded to it after the game. The receiver was supposed to cut on that INT - Palmer read it correctly and threw it correctly. Maybe that's why he wasn't penalized by PFF?

 

[bengaldoug]

I believe I heard that several teams use them for their analytics. Collinsworth just became an investor with them, as he backs what they do and how they do it.

However, I will say that sometimes, it's hard to get every grade 100%. Sure, when looking at a specific play it may seem like Dalton (or any QB) made a bad read, etc..etc..but I am sure that there are times where the read was actually correct per the actual play called, or audible. Without actually knowing each play 100%, there is still a lot of subjectivity with their rankings. However, I think they do a good job, and more often that not, they are pretty close to what I think the actual grades should be.

Maybe some things that could be tweaked would be how certain things are weighted. Such as, how Palmer and Dalton had similar grades, yet Dalton was clearly better (ok, ok, he didn't suck as hard as Palmer did, I digress). Sure, some of the reads may have been poor, but ultimately, they didn't cost the team. Palmer's mistake did. Add in more completions, more yards, and you wonder what is weighted more...the pick 6 or a poor decision that didn't hurt the team.

The pick six wasn't Palmer's fault this time.....even Fitzgerald admitted he ran the wrong route, cutting behind Newman instead of across his face. Palmer just threw the ball where Fitz should have been......

 

[Cincyfan78]

The pick six wasn't Palmer's fault this time.....even Fitzgerald admitted he ran the wrong route, cutting behind Newman instead of across his face. Palmer just threw the ball where Fitz should have been......

I get that, but it still happened. It still leads to 6 points the other way.

That means that a bad read that leads to an incompletion is weighted worse than a pass that is picked off. And to be honest, since Newman was playing the under, Palmer shouldn't have thrown that pass to start with, even if LF cuts it's still most likely an incompletion or pass defensed. I mean, we'll never know, but Newman was in position to make a play one way or another.

 

[bengaldoug]

I get that, but it still happened. It still leads to 6 points the other way.

That means that a bad read that leads to an incompletion is weighted worse than a pass that is picked off. And to be honest, since Newman was playing the under, Palmer shouldn't have thrown that pass to start with, even if LF cuts it's still most likely an incompletion or pass defensed. I mean, we'll never know, but Newman was in position to make a play one way or another.

The negative number belonged to Fitz on that play. If he runs the right route it was a completion unless Newman had been able to strip him of making the catch. I agree that sometimes PFF analysis can be subjective, and it's also true that sometimes they may make analytical mistakes because they didn't understand the formation or plan of the play, or the particular assignment of the player, but they still point out problem areas that players consistently struggle with, and make it much easier for average fans like us to understand why plays succeed or fail.

 

[CrashDavisSports]

The negative number belonged to Fitz on that play. If he runs the right route it was a completion unless Newman had been able to strip him of making the catch. I agree that sometimes PFF analysis can be subjective, and it's also true that sometimes they may make analytical mistakes because they didn't understand the formation or plan of the play, or the particular assignment of the player, but they still point out problem areas that players consistently struggle with, and make it much easier for average fans like us to understand why plays succeed or fail.

Like I said, it is a good starting point, but I wouldn't rely so hard on the grades and think of them as the end all. I use Dalton mostly as an example, because it is easier to see with our eyes when QB's do well or not so well. It is much harder to grade lineman, and what not. I imagine that WR's do not get graded when not involved in a play, because how would an average observer know whether the WR ran the correct route.

Dalton was not great the other night, but he was not bad either. I think his grade in general should have been closer to the 0.0 mark, as nothing was bad, but nothing was great. He had over 60% completion, nothing was nearly picked offhe threw for over 7 ypp avg. Arizona has a strong defense. I never felt like anything he did was putting us in jeopardy. He had the intentional grounding. Hue said take the sack for now on in that case. So I am sure he would have got dinged bad for that too. All in all, nothing to write home about, but nothing bad either, which is why I feel his rating was closer to the 0 mark than -1.9.

 

[bengaldoug]

Just watch Dalton under pressure vs good defenses.....that's pretty much all you'll need to see to judge if he's improving this year, or just the same old mediocre Andy.......hell, just watch him v the ratbirds, since he really has never played well against them and we know they'll bring the kitchen sink to try and get to him......