this goes against the grain

[skinsdad62]

Dad, Danny is not bringing any HC in here that doesn't believe that RG3 is the franchise QB.

So you are telling me that if someone offered us a 1st for Kirk, you wouldn't take it?

Rex is gone the day after Kyle leaves. Actually Rex is gone no matter if Kyle is here or not.

Dad its has nothing to do with what we think, and every thing to do with what Snyder thinks. And he likely thinks RG3 is a franchise QB. He also likely doesnt want to see another year of questioning IF RG3 starts off slow. KC will be traded provided we get any kind of offer. Only way I see this not happening is if Shanahan is still the coach.

we dont know any of that now do we ? we suspect many things but we dont know anything
if you asked me 4 years ago that snyder would give up total power of football operations to anyone i would say no , but he did

no one is offering a 1st rounder to us for KC but if they did then yes , why wouldnt i

snyder will have to give ground for a decent HC or else we will get a stiff for a HC , and in which case it wont matter anyway

so i believe the HC is going to want to "see' what he has at qb and make choices there

 

[Sharkinva]

we dont know any of that now do we ? we suspect many things but we dont know anything
if you asked me 4 years ago that snyder would give up total power of football operations to anyone i would say no , but he did

no one is offering a 1st rounder to us for KC but if they did then yes , why wouldnt i

snyder will have to give ground for a decent HC or else we will get a stiff for a HC , and in which case it wont matter anyway

so i believe the HC is going to want to "see' what he has at qb and make choices there

I go off of Snyders patterns. He gave up control and his pet monkey Vinny to get Marty in here. Then he brought in Spurrier. When Gibbs came in, he pretty much had roster control. Then he got Zorn. He gave Shanahan "total" power, so according to his usual pattern, the next coach will be some one much more pliable.

 

[skinsdad62]

I go off of Snyders patterns. He gave up control and his pet monkey Vinny to get Marty in here. Then he brought in Spurrier. When Gibbs came in, he pretty much had roster control. Then he got Zorn. He gave Shanahan "total" power, so according to his usual pattern, the next coach will be some one much more pliable.

no more grassy knoll things

 

[Sharkinva]

no more grassy knoll things

Its not grassy knoll. Its a pattern. And until such time as he breaks the pattern, what should we really expect?? Every one says he will hire a GM, a real GM. Which is something he has NEVER done. And in fact the first thing he did when he bought the team was fire the last true GM we had and put Vinny in his place. We went to the playoffs with Brad Johnson, and what did he do?? Go out and get Jeff George. He cut bait on a very good safety in order to sign Adam Archuletta. The man likes his toys. RG3 is his latest toy. And lets be honest.. I see a whole lot of Jerry Jones in Dan Snyder. Sure he wants to win, but only if its done his way.

 

[skinsdad62]

Its not grassy knoll. Its a pattern. And until such time as he breaks the pattern, what should we really expect?? Every one says he will hire a GM, a real GM. Which is something he has NEVER done. And in fact the first thing he did when he bought the team was fire the last true GM we had and put Vinny in his place. We went to the playoffs with Brad Johnson, and what did he do?? Go out and get Jeff George. He cut bait on a very good safety in order to sign Adam Archuletta. The man likes his toys. RG3 is his latest toy. And lets be honest.. I see a whole lot of Jerry Jones in Dan Snyder. Sure he wants to win, but only if its done his way.

i doubt snyder even knows the pattern . so who is a real GM ? cerrato no , allen NO , then who ? you have smith on board as a consultant but is he a mouthpiece too ?

i see a guy like a whisenhunt getting a good look a jay gruden and a roman maybe even a zimmer getting a shot at HC

 

[Sharkinva]

i doubt snyder even knows the pattern . so who is a real GM ? cerrato no , allen NO , then who ? you have smith on board as a consultant but is he a mouthpiece too ?

i see a guy like a whisenhunt getting a good look a jay gruden and a roman maybe even a zimmer getting a shot at HC

Allen is a mouth piece. But here is what I expect. Allen will maintain his role as "GM" Brown might get a bump in pay and title but will defacto be chief consultant. Dan will reinsert himself in player acquisition. As far as coach, I expect he might get some one half decent provided they are willing to let some one else have final say on the players brought in.

 

[j_y19]

we dont know any of that now do we ? we suspect many things but we dont know anything
if you asked me 4 years ago that snyder would give up total power of football operations to anyone i would say no , but he did

no one is offering a 1st rounder to us for KC but if they did then yes , why wouldnt i

snyder will have to give ground for a decent HC or else we will get a stiff for a HC , and in which case it wont matter anyway

so i believe the HC is going to want to "see' what he has at qb and make choices there

So you are willing to trade Cousins, its just a matter of the price. Thats been my position all along. If we can get a quality starter to fill a glaring hole, either thru trade or 2nd round draft pick and above, then you have to take that deal. In an ideal world, I would love to have kirk in camp and competing for the QB starting job. But we aren't in an ideal situation and can neither afford the luxury of 2 starting caliber QBs when we have so many weaknesses nor is it going to be an open competition. RG3 will be the starter for the Skins on opening day next year.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Allen is a mouth piece. But here is what I expect. Allen will maintain his role as "GM" Brown might get a bump in pay and title but will defacto be chief consultant. Dan will reinsert himself in player acquisition. As far as coach, I expect he might get some one half decent provided they are willing to let some one else have final say on the players brought in.

So based on some random articles (none of which have been proven to be correct) that basically stated that Snyder is buddy-buddy with RG3 - you take it all the way to the point where Dan Snyder wants total control & will again make most/all of the personnel decisions? WTF?

Jeez - you are assuming a lot. I can understand yourself or any Redskins fan being a little jaded right now but lets not get carried away. You also discount the fact that Snyder knows that he is being watched & too many arrogant moves could likely result in big revenue losses & also the fact that in the end he does want a winning team in DC & knows that it involves him not having a major role in these decisions. He has his flaws - no doubt. However - I believe that he is smarter than you think (don't confuse this with me being a Snyder apologist - just trying to look at the situation unemotionally).

 

[Sharkinva]

So based on some random articles (none of which have been proven to be correct) that basically stated that Snyder is buddy-buddy with RG3 - you take it all the way to the point where Dan Snyder wants total control & will again make most/all of the personnel decisions? WTF?

Jeez - you are assuming a lot. I can understand yourself or any Redskins fan being a little jaded right now but lets not get carried away. You also discount the fact that Snyder knows that he is being watched & too many arrogant moves could likely result in big revenue losses & also the fact that in the end he does want a winning team in DC & knows that it involves him not having a major role in these decisions. He has his flaws - no doubt. However - I believe that he is smarter than you think (don't confuse this with me being a Snyder apologist - just trying to look at the situation unemotionally).

Socal... as I stated Im just looking at the mans patterns. And nothing to this point that he has done suggests that he will infact hire a GM and give him control. I could be dead wrong on this one, but you must admit he has alot of the same traits as Jerry Jones. I agree he wants to win desperately. I just dont believe he will step back. Its not a matter of him being smart or not. Its a matter of him thinking he is smarter than he actually is in this area. But again I could be wrong, but would any of us really be shocked if I wasnt??

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Socal... as I stated Im just looking at the mans patterns. And nothing to this point that he has done suggests that he will infact hire a GM and give him control. I could be dead wrong on this one, but you must admit he has alot of the same traits as Jerry Jones. I agree he wants to win desperately. I just dont believe he will step back. Its not a matter of him being smart or not. Its a matter of him thinking he is smarter than he actually is in this area. But again I could be wrong, but would any of us really be shocked if I wasnt??

Agree to disagree & he is significantly different than Jones in many respects. You rarely see Snyder on TV or being interviewed individually - he generally remains in the background. Compare that to Jones who appears to have never seen a camera or microphone that he didn't like. Jones is also on record as stating that he will always make the personnel decisions as long as he owns the team. Snyder makes no such claims & appeared to be totally uninvolved in these decisions the last few years.

The only thing contradicting these are a series of recent WP articles that suspiciously appeared just as Shanahan's job was in jeopardy. I believe that Snyder does perhaps coddle to RG3 too much. However - I see no concrete evidence from anyone that he has been involved in player personnel decisions over the last several years. Do you have any proof?

My statement about Snyder's intelligence was meant to convey the fact that he realizes that he must leave most/all of the personnel decisions to other people. I believe that he realizes this for the most part (unlike Jones). No - I would not be completely shocked if Snyder regains some or a lot of control in this area. However - I don't expect it & certainly I am not worried about it at this time. If I do worry about it - it will only be after the offseason decisions are made about the coaches, GM, etc. No reason to get concerned about it now since it is a complete unknown.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

BTW Shark, j_y, etc,

I love these type of conversations since - hopefully - they get each of us to see various points of view on the subject. Hopefully - we can then see various potential outcomes & come to grips with them if/when they occur. Good stuff.

 

[Sharkinva]

Socal... Its apparent we look at him from different angles. And thats cool. I choose to plan for the worst, and hope for a better outcome. You, Skinsdad and a few others Expect him to improve and hope you arent wrong. Nothing wrong with that. And Im not overly worried, because i expect him to to handle this a certain way and will be pleased if Im actually wrong. I realize that our owner and fanbase are a rather impatient lot (me included) and as such we are pron to the quick fix mentality. Seven coaches in 14 years averaging a new coach every two years doesnt give on much confidence that the new coach basically rebuilding and likely making alot of changes will survive. Again I hope Im wrong and we bring in a new GM (not a front man) a Solid new coach, and we dont go into the habits of shopping based on name value in free agency. But I will believe he has actually changed his spots when I see it.

 

[j_y19]

Agree to disagree & he is significantly different than Jones in many respects. You rarely see Snyder on TV or being interviewed individually - he generally remains in the background. Compare that to Jones who appears to have never seen a camera or microphone that he didn't like. Jones is also on record as stating that he will always make the personnel decisions as long as he owns the team. Snyder makes no such claims & appeared to be totally uninvolved in these decisions the last few years.

The only thing contradicting these are a series of recent WP articles that suspiciously appeared just as Shanahan's job was in jeopardy. I believe that Snyder does perhaps coddle to RG3 too much. However - I see no concrete evidence from anyone that he has been involved in player personnel decisions over the last several years. Do you have any proof?

My statement about Snyder's intelligence was meant to convey the fact that he realizes that he must leave most/all of the personnel decisions to other people. I believe that he realizes this for the most part (unlike Jones). No - I would not be completely shocked if Snyder regains some or a lot of control in this area. However - I don't expect it & certainly I am not worried about it at this time. If I do worry about it - it will only be after the offseason decisions are made about the coaches, GM, etc. No reason to get concerned about it now since it is a complete unknown.

Socal, I agree that these types of intelligent debates are what makes these forums so interesting...now, to your posts.....

I don't think its so much that snyder coddles RG3, but empowers him, by setting him on a pedestal, to question his coaches and their schemes/play calling. Even if he does have concerns, no player should ever let those questions out in public, especially one that calls himself a leader. This, I believe, is what started the issues that Shanahan has with the RG3/Snyder relationship. When a player can publicly question the coach and it goes unaddressed, anarchy will soon rule. And that's where we are. If snyder would have supported Shanahan as soon as direct or indirect statements from RG3 or his Dad arose, we would not be here where we are now.

As far as has Snyder learned, maybe, maybe not. As evidenced by my point above, snyder is still meddling, if even indirectly, and I think he truly doesn't understand this. Do I think he will revert back to the days where he and vinny were making personnel decisions directly? No, I don't . But I do think that he will make it perfectly clear to whomever is the next coach that RG3 is the starting QB. So that is still being involved. I also think that if he falls in love with a FA, he will once again pull out Redskins 1 and wine and dine the guy to the point that the FA realizes that they can get whatever they want from Snyder. I like the fact that he is willing to pull out his checkbook. But sometimes you need to keep your hand a secret, every dollar counts. Shanahan/Allen did a good job of this, I fear that any weaker personality won't be able to fight that urge Danny has.

Finally, he and Jerry are very much alike. True, Jerry is more of a public personality, Snyder has never been comfortable as a public persona. But they both are ego maniacs that are used to getting their way and bristle at anyone that questions them. They both want instant satisfaction. Unfortunately, building a football team doesn't happen over night, no matter how much money you are willing to throw at it.

 

[skinsdad62]

Socal, I agree that these types of intelligent debates are what makes these forums so interesting...now, to your posts.....

I don't think its so much that snyder coddles RG3, but empowers him, by setting him on a pedestal, to question his coaches and their schemes/play calling. Even if he does have concerns, no player should ever let those questions out in public, especially one that calls himself a leader. This, I believe, is what started the issues that Shanahan has with the RG3/Snyder relationship. When a player can publicly question the coach and it goes unaddressed, anarchy will soon rule. And that's where we are. If snyder would have supported Shanahan as soon as direct or indirect statements from RG3 or his Dad arose, we would not be here where we are now.

As far as has Snyder learned, maybe, maybe not. As evidenced by my point above, snyder is still meddling, if even indirectly, and I think he truly doesn't understand this. Do I think he will revert back to the days where he and vinny were making personnel decisions directly? No, I don't . But I do think that he will make it perfectly clear to whomever is the next coach that RG3 is the starting QB. So that is still being involved. I also think that if he falls in love with a FA, he will once again pull out Redskins 1 and wine and dine the guy to the point that the FA realizes that they can get whatever they want from Snyder. I like the fact that he is willing to pull out his checkbook. But sometimes you need to keep your hand a secret, every dollar counts. Shanahan/Allen did a good job of this, I fear that any weaker personality won't be able to fight that urge Danny has.

Finally, he and Jerry are very much alike. True, Jerry is more of a public personality, Snyder has never been comfortable as a public persona. But they both are ego maniacs that are used to getting their way and bristle at anyone that questions them. They both want instant satisfaction. Unfortunately, building a football team doesn't happen over night, no matter how much money you are willing to throw at it.

ok break it down for me

what real proof do we have that Rg3 did what you say he did ? give me one credible source RG3 says he doesnt have that relationship and the players agree (cofield being one ) so what are we basing this on ? blog reports and unnamed sources ?

when did he question a coach in public ? are you referring to his praise of the eagles which is what he said it was ? what are you referring too ? again is this unnamed sources

as for snyder it appears he has stayed mostly out of the way with the football operation . are you of the opinion that he just needs to sign the checks and has no obligation to to check on things ?

i know snyders past , but why do we assume he hasnt changed ? has he had any chance to prove otherwise since his alleged new outlook ? we have possibly gone through one coach and it didnt work out so now he reverts to old ways . he hasnt learned anything ?

my attitude is the let this play out and see what happens then support or bash it

 

[j_y19]

ok break it down for me

what real proof do we have that Rg3 did what you say he did ? give me one credible source RG3 says he doesnt have that relationship and the players agree (cofield being one ) so what are we basing this on ? blog reports and unnamed sources ?

when did he question a coach in public ? are you referring to his praise of the eagles which is what he said it was ? what are you referring too ? again is this unnamed sources

as for snyder it appears he has stayed mostly out of the way with the football operation . are you of the opinion that he just needs to sign the checks and has no obligation to to check on things ?

i know snyders past , but why do we assume he hasnt changed ? has he had any chance to prove otherwise since his alleged new outlook ? we have possibly gone through one coach and it didnt work out so now he reverts to old ways . he hasnt learned anything ?
my attitude is the let this play out and see what happens then support or bash it

Simple. I'll give you 2 examples where he, or his team, called out the coaches. First, after the seattle game, mid spring, he was asked about the injury and who was at fault. His statement was something along the line, we all know what happened and who was at fault. Inference was that we was putting some of the blame on Shanahan. Maybe rightfully so, but he was as culpable as shanahan was for him being on that field. That's what he should have said and left it at that. Talk about your involvement, not a teammate's or choach's shortcomings. This statement, I believe, started the rift.

Second, later in the spring, his Dad came out and directly questioned the use of his son. While one could say that he can't control what his dad says, he can control how he responds to it. He was silent. So it was very easy to infer that he supported the opinion of his Father. If he didn't, he should have come out and said, that his dad has every right to his opinion and is logically concerned about his health, but the coach makes the decisions on strategy, scheme, and play calling and he supports the Shanahan's 100%. Even if he doesn't. That's what he should have said, or something like it. He is very intelligent and he knows how his silence was to be interpreted.

There have been other side comments which have made it seem he was questioning the coaching or his teammates. You can't stick your head in the sand and ignore the significance of these type of statements. If they happen once, you give him some latitude in lack of experience or misspeaking. But when they happen multiple times, they are intended to send a message.

 

[j_y19]

And yes, I am of the opinion that Snyder, especially snyder, should set the overall expectations and then step back and sign the checks. He should not be a practice every day, he shouldn't even have an office at Redskins Park. Give 100% public support to your HC and GM and do so continuously until you replace them. If he wants to check on things, as you President of Operations for a status update.

 

[skinsdad62]

Simple. I'll give you 2 examples where he, or his team, called out the coaches. First, after the seattle game, mid spring, he was asked about the injury and who was at fault. His statement was something along the line, we all know what happened and who was at fault. Inference was that we was putting some of the blame on Shanahan. Maybe rightfully so, but he was as culpable as shanahan was for him being on that field. That's what he should have said and left it at that. Talk about your involvement, not a teammate's or choach's shortcomings. This statement, I believe, started the rift.

Second, later in the spring, his Dad came out and directly questioned the use of his son. While one could say that he can't control what his dad says, he can control how he responds to it. He was silent. So it was very easy to infer that he supported the opinion of his Father. If he didn't, he should have come out and said, that his dad has every right to his opinion and is logically concerned about his health, but the coach makes the decisions on strategy, scheme, and play calling and he supports the Shanahan's 100%. Even if he doesn't. That's what he should have said, or something like it. He is very intelligent and he knows how his silence was to be interpreted.

There have been other side comments which have made it seem he was questioning the coaching or his teammates. You can't stick your head in the sand and ignore the significance of these type of statements. If they happen once, you give him some latitude in lack of experience or misspeaking. But when they happen multiple times, they are intended to send a message.

you didnt mention anything about his relationship with snyder

but let me address the coaching thing . he said " we all know what happened " about the seatle game . and you inferred he was taking a swipe at the coaches . i dont see it that way at all . the press had commented for months about what went down in that game and who was at fault . pretty much the med staff Rg3 , and the HC were all involved in that . i think his statement reaffirmed that . i dont derive anything sinister from that . i also dont believe that "we" doesnt include "me" when you talk about we as a team . i dont need a coloring book and crayons to get what he said and he explained that after the moss thing , (which moss later back tracked on )

now for his dad . i said Rg3 i didnt say his dad . his dad is a grown man Rg3's silence could mean lots of things not the least of which is to challenge my ex army sgt dad in public . none of my kids would do that to me without my foot being planted in their ass. it could mean he addressed it in private and his dad still isnt listening

the other comments you have are from unnamed sources or bloggers that could be or couldnt be true

i have watched virtually every presser Rg3 has had since he came here . i dont see a lot of diva in him . i see lots of honesty and that gets him into trouble

but you havent built a case for me to believe yet that RG3 has the ear of snyder and snyder would sell his soul for Rg3 .

that could change and i could be wrong but i am used to that . its the price you pay for being fair and waiting till all the facts are in

 

[j_y19]

you didnt mention anything about his relationship with snyder

but let me address the coaching thing . he said " we all know what happened " about the seatle game . and you inferred he was taking a swipe at the coaches . i dont see it that way at all . the press had commented for months about what went down in that game and who was at fault . pretty much the med staff Rg3 , and the HC were all involved in that . i think his statement reaffirmed that . i dont derive anything sinister from that . i also dont believe that "we" doesnt include "me" when you talk about we as a team . i dont need a coloring book and crayons to get what he said and he explained that after the moss thing , (which moss later back tracked on )

now for his dad . i said Rg3 i didnt say his dad . his dad is a grown man Rg3's silence could mean lots of things not the least of which is to challenge my ex army sgt dad in public . none of my kids would do that to me without my foot being planted in their ass. it could mean he addressed it in private and his dad still isnt listening

the other comments you have are from unnamed sources or bloggers that could be or couldnt be true

i have watched virtually every presser Rg3 has had since he came here . i dont see a lot of diva in him . i see lots of honesty and that gets him into trouble

but you havent built a case for me to believe yet that RG3 has the ear of snyder and snyder would sell his soul for Rg3 .

that could change and i could be wrong but i am used to that . its the price you pay for being fair and waiting till all the facts are in

Well, you are one of a few that don't see diva characteristics in his statements and actions. Once is a misspeak. More than once is message. You asked for things that Rg3 has done that makes me feel he has undermined the coach. I gave them to you. I could have also mentioned the statement that he made before the season about how mike promised him he would start. He did that knowing it put mike on the spot by challenging his truthfulness. Clearly at that time mike must have been wavering about starting rg3 the first game. Again, you don't air this in the press, especially if you are a leader.

I didn't mention Snyder because there is nothing I could say to you that would convince you otherwise. You purposely give them all the benefit of the doubt. I don't. Snyder has not earned that. As someone else pointed out, Snyder has a pattern of behavior that could easily lead one to believe he has given RG3 treatment that allows him to question the coaches.

 

[skinsdad62]

Well, you are one of a few that don't see diva characteristics in his statements and actions. Once is a misspeak. More than once is message. You asked for things that Rg3 has done that makes me feel he has undermined the coach. I gave them to you. I could have also mentioned the statement that he made before the season about how mike promised him he would start. He did that knowing it put mike on the spot by challenging his truthfulness. Clearly at that time mike must have been wavering about starting rg3 the first game. Again, you don't air this in the press, especially if you are a leader.

I didn't mention Snyder because there is nothing I could say to you that would convince you otherwise. You purposely give them all the benefit of the doubt. I don't. Snyder has not earned that. As someone else pointed out, Snyder has a pattern of behavior that could easily lead one to believe he has given RG3 treatment that allows him to question the coaches.

i see a young qb with tons of talent that is 23 yrs old and is wading his way on how to deal with the press

i have given numerous options on what can could be viables reasons for what is being reported

sure Rg3 could have some diva in him but not the sinister amount being portrayed . the players say snyder isnt coddling him the press and the fan base say he is . how much of it is snyder hate ?

shanny has maintained all along that Rg3 was the starter so what is new there ? if shanny promised him that then so be it . shanny could have played KC if he felt he needed to . who cares if Rg3's feelings were hurt or what the fan base thought ?

i believe that RG3 and shanahan did everything they could so he could be ready for opening day and i dont see any sin ister CSI BS there at all . what i do see is hindsight 20/20 BS because where was all this week one ? or 2 or 3 or 4 ? no where that is why . now after the fact we want to decipher what happened and all these sinister plots come to light by the evil Rg3 and snyder

i am not a fan of snyder . as a man he is a bully . and i hope he sells the team . but if you think any owner isnt going to be involved in the team then your expectations are out of whack .

 

[Sharkinva]

i see a young qb with tons of talent that is 23 yrs old and is wading his way on how to deal with the press

i have given numerous options on what can could be viables reasons for what is being reported

sure Rg3 could have some diva in him but not the sinister amount being portrayed . the players say snyder isnt coddling him the press and the fan base say he is . how much of it is snyder hate ?

shanny has maintained all along that Rg3 was the starter so what is new there ? if shanny promised him that then so be it . shanny could have played KC if he felt he needed to . who cares if Rg3's feelings were hurt or what the fan base thought ?

i believe that RG3 and shanahan did everything they could so he could be ready for opening day and i dont see any sin ister CSI BS there at all . what i do see is hindsight 20/20 BS because where was all this week one ? or 2 or 3 or 4 ? no where that is why . now after the fact we want to decipher what happened and all these sinister plots come to light by the evil Rg3 and snyder

i am not a fan of snyder . as a man he is a bully . and i hope he sells the team . but if you think any owner isnt going to be involved in the team then your expectations are out of whack .

Openly or covertly calling out the guy who writes the checks is the quickest way to ensure you dont get another check. Any one with half a brain would know if they are asked does the owner play favorites, the correct answer is no even if its not true. And I believe RG3 is smart enough to know that Snyder bet the farm on him, so if he isnt happy with the coaches, odds are he wins any fight on that level. He knows what he said, and how it would or could have been taken. So Im not buying the innocent 23 year old bit because there have been too many slips of the tongue.