The Posey done for the year thread

[gp956]

I understand that Posey's career could be over, but I don't think it is. I'm certainly not a doctor, but I have seen many people recover much quicker than expected from broken ankles and ligament damage. If his career is over, that is definitely a huge bummer for Buster the person, player and member of a would-be weakened Giants organization. I am also a firm believer that any athletes career could end on any play. Ken Griffey, Jr. pulled his hamstring from the bone chasing down a fly ball. Extenuating circumstances, but Dave Dravecky broke his arm throwing a pitch... twice.

I don't think Cousins was head-hunting. He was trying to score a run. There is a big difference between the player you described in your question and a guy trying to continue playing Major League Baseball. He knows Nate Schierholtz has a great arm. He knows Buster Posey will do whatever he can to apply the tag. He knew he was going to have to run into Posey to score. Every time I watch that replay, despite the bad hop, I am certain that Cousins would have been out if tried to take that outside path. The impending contact and the eventual contact made it a certainty that the Marlins would get that run. He made a smart play, in my opinion. I didn't like any part of the outcome, but I would expect a teammate to make the same decision, star player or not.

I'm just saying with that much money on the table for stars, and given the overall fraternal nature of current players, rogue gunslingers are a thing being left in the past. The Code evolves.

 

[Mr. Teal]

I understand that Posey's career could be over, but I don't think it is. I'm certainly not a doctor, but I have seen many people recover much quicker than expected from broken ankles and ligament damage. If his career is over, that is definitely a huge bummer for Buster the person, player and member of a would-be weakened Giants organization. I am also a firm believer that any athletes career could end on any play. Ken Griffey, Jr. pulled his hamstring from the bone chasing down a fly ball. Extenuating circumstances, but Dave Dravecky broke his arm throwing a pitch... twice.

Dave Dravecky had cancer and lost his arm so that's not an applicable comparison to make in this situation.

As for "injuries happen" that doesn't fly in this case.
Cousins had a clear path to the plate that he never intended to take. He went low with the head and shoulder. That's not even an attempted slide. That's intent to take out a defenseless player which he did spectacularly.

There needs to be disciplinary action taken by the league because if they do not, the Giants will take disciplinary action of their own. Is that wrong or right? Irrelevant. That's how it works in baseball.

 

[Heathbar012]

I'm just saying with that much money on the table for stars, and given the overall fraternal nature of current players, rogue gunslingers are a thing being left in the past. The Code evolves.

Absolutely, but I don't look at Cousins as a rogue gunslinger. He is a dude trying to make a living playing baseball. Stakes are purely circumstantial and measured only by the individual.

 

[Heathbar012]

Dave Dravecky had cancer and lost his arm so that's not an applicable comparison to make in this situation.

As for "injuries happen" that doesn't fly in this case.
Cousins had a clear path to the plate that he never intended to take. He went low with the head and shoulder. That's not even an attempted slide. That's intent to take out a defenseless player which he did spectacularly.

There needs to be disciplinary action taken by the league because if they do not, the Giants will take disciplinary action of their own. Is that wrong or right? Irrelevant. That's how it works in baseball.

I know Dave Dravecky had cancer. The point was that things happen in life and baseball. Guys play hard, they get hurt. Dravecky could've quit after the first arm break that effectively diagnosed his cancer. He kept going. Buster will try, too.

Yes, Cousins knew he was going to run into Posey when he was half-way home. Did he know he was going to be completely defense-less when he got there? No. Did he see the clear path? Probably. Did that path give him the best chance to score the run? No.

I am just as upset as everyone else that Buster is out for the season, but I just don't see how an ump can be expected to consistently make those split-second decisions, correctly. With how much we bag on these guys for their inconsistent strike zones, imagine the uproar from actual scoring chances.

I agree that the Giants will take their own justice, and yes, I believe that is perfectly justified. All things considered, I'm sure the Marlins will take the punishment... and the victory. To quote Herm Edwards, "Hello? You play to win the game."

 

[Mr. Teal]

I know Dave Dravecky had cancer. The point was that things happen in life and baseball. Guys play hard, they get hurt. Dravecky could've quit after the first arm break that effectively diagnosed his cancer. He kept going. Buster will try, too.

Yes, Cousins knew he was going to run into Posey when he was half-way home. Did he know he was going to be completely defense-less when he got there? No. Did he see the clear path? Probably. Did that path give him the best chance to score the run? No.

I am just as upset as everyone else that Buster is out for the season, but I just don't see how an ump can be expected to consistently make those split-second decisions, correctly. With how much we bag on these guys for their inconsistent strike zones, imagine the uproar from actual scoring chances.

I agree that the Giants will take their own justice, and yes, I believe that is perfectly justified. All things considered, I'm sure the Marlins will take the punishment... and the victory. To quote Herm Edwards, "Hello? You play to win the game."

He had a clear path to the plate and was ahead of the throw. The hit was totally unnecessary. He went out of his way to hit Posey and he hit him dirty.

I'm sure the whichever Giant pitcher tags a Marlin in the earhole, will claim it was an accident too. Part of the game right? Injuries happen.

 

[calsnowskier]

Carl Stewart just posted on Baggs (he is filling in for him today) that the G's are adamant that there is a lot of bad info out there and that nothing should be trusted. Could it be that Posey's knee is OK and it is only a break?

That would be GREAT news!!

 

[Heathbar012]

He had a clear path to the plate and was ahead of the throw. The hit was totally unnecessary. He went out of his way to hit Posey and he hit him dirty.

I'm sure the whichever Giant pitcher tags a Marlin in the earhole, will claim it was an accident too. Part of the game right? Injuries happen.

I agree with the bolded. I don't agree that Cousins went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey was between him and a run. He may not have been blocking the plate, but I firmly believe, after watching replays that a clean hop and Cousins taking an outside path to the plate would've led to an out. I also firmly believe that in real time, there was no way for Cousins to change his course. He knew he had to take him out to score a run when he was half-way down the line and thinking about Nate's arm. It is a lot more difficult to change course on a big hit at full speed than most people realize, which is why we see so much uproar about helmet-to-helmet hits. Sometimes after thorough analysis of a clip, you can judge intent, but it's virtually impossible in real time.

 

[tzill]

I agree with the bolded. I don't agree that Cousins went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey was between him and a run. He may not have been blocking the plate, but I firmly believe, after watching replays that a clean hop and Cousins taking an outside path to the plate would've led to an out. I also firmly believe that in real time, there was no way for Cousins to change his course. He knew he had to take him out to score a run when he was half-way down the line and thinking about Nate's arm. It is a lot more difficult to change course on a big hit at full speed than most people realize, which is why we see so much uproar about helmet-to-helmet hits. Sometimes after thorough analysis of a clip, you can judge intent, but it's virtually impossible in real time.

Cousins himself admitted he intentionally blew up Posey. You're trying to quibble over "out of his way." The rule book is plain on this. It's interference.

 

[gp956]

Cousins himself admitted he intentionally blew up Posey. You're trying to quibble over "out of his way." The rule book is plain on this. It's interference.

Yes he did. He seemed quite proud of it, in fact.

 

[gp956]

I agree with the bolded. I don't agree that Cousins went out of his way to hit Posey. Posey was between him and a run. He may not have been blocking the plate, but I firmly believe, after watching replays that a clean hop and Cousins taking an outside path to the plate would've led to an out. I also firmly believe that in real time, there was no way for Cousins to change his course. He knew he had to take him out to score a run when he was half-way down the line and thinking about Nate's arm. It is a lot more difficult to change course on a big hit at full speed than most people realize, which is why we see so much uproar about helmet-to-helmet hits. Sometimes after thorough analysis of a clip, you can judge intent, but it's virtually impossible in real time.

Actually, it's pretty easy to change course for a well conditioned athlete. Most couch potatoes wouldn't know that.

 

[Heathbar012]

Actually, it's pretty easy to change course for a well conditioned athlete. Most couch potatoes wouldn't know that.

I think you might be giving well-conditioned athletes super-human credit that they may or may not deserve.

 

[Heathbar012]

Cousins himself admitted he intentionally blew up Posey. You're trying to quibble over "out of his way." The rule book is plain on this. It's interference.

I'm not quibbling over language. I disagree that, in real time, Cousins actions resembled interference.

"Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play."

His intent was clear: score a run. There is almost no way for a catcher to not block at least a small portion of the plate on a good throw. He has to get where the ball is before it gets there. That is fair. It is also fair to run in a straight line through to the back of the plate. You disagree and say that you saw Cousins veer towards Posey. I don't think you could've seen that in real time unless you were set to the home plate camera and specifically looking for it. The umpire is looking for the ball, the plate the tag and the timing of it all (in nano-seconds). I don't think adding a finer point to seek out is wise unless we want to review all plays at the plate, too. In that case, it will almost always be interference or obstruction. That doesn't seem like a good way to settle things.

They might as well just stop half-way down the line and have a thumb war to decide who gets the run or the out. No one will get hurt then either. That would let the players decide the outcome on the field, too.

 

[gp956]

I think you might be giving well-conditioned athletes super-human credit that they may or may not deserve.

I'm riffing on "It is a lot more difficult to change course on a big hit at full speed than most people realize". In discussions with peers, you should assume they are at least as knowledgeable as you are about the issues being discussed, until proven otherwise.

 

[Heathbar012]

I'm riffing on "It is a lot more difficult to change course on a big hit at full speed than most people realize". In discussions with peers, you should assume they are at least as knowledgeable as you are about the issues being discussed, until proven otherwise.

I didn't use the "most people realize" reference with the intention to suggest that I am more knowledgeable because I am not. I just think people see football and basketball players stop on a dime, make great cuts and assume that most athletes can do the same. I disagree.

In general, I believe our society (or "most people") has unreasonable expectations for professional athletes both on and off the field. If anyone decides that they are going to run into someone 45 feet or more before doing so, noticing that person is not fully blocking the plate 10 feet before impact will not significantly change their original course.

 

[gp956]

I'm not quibbling over language. I disagree that, in real time, Cousins actions resembled interference.

"Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play."

His intent was clear: score a run. There is almost no way for a catcher to not block at least a small portion of the plate on a good throw. He has to get where the ball is before it gets there. That is fair. It is also fair to run in a straight line through to the back of the plate. You disagree and say that you saw Cousins veer towards Posey. I don't think you could've seen that in real time unless you were set to the home plate camera and specifically looking for it. The umpire is looking for the ball, the plate the tag and the timing of it all (in nano-seconds). I don't think adding a finer point to seek out is wise unless we want to review all plays at the plate, too. In that case, it will almost always be interference or obstruction. That doesn't seem like a good way to settle things.

They might as well just stop half-way down the line and have a thumb war to decide who gets the run or the out. No one will get hurt then either. That would let the players decide the outcome on the field, too.

I think you are making it way too complex. Simply apply the interpretations that exist now for infielders applying a tag on steal attempts. You're also missing the language of the rule as applied to intentional acts intended to dislodge a ball from the fielder.

 

[gp956]

I'm not quibbling over language. I disagree that, in real time, Cousins actions resembled interference.

"Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play."

His intent was clear: score a run. There is almost no way for a catcher to not block at least a small portion of the plate on a good throw. He has to get where the ball is before it gets there. That is fair. It is also fair to run in a straight line through to the back of the plate. You disagree and say that you saw Cousins veer towards Posey. I don't think you could've seen that in real time unless you were set to the home plate camera and specifically looking for it. The umpire is looking for the ball, the plate the tag and the timing of it all (in nano-seconds). I don't think adding a finer point to seek out is wise unless we want to review all plays at the plate, too. In that case, it will almost always be interference or obstruction. That doesn't seem like a good way to settle things.

They might as well just stop half-way down the line and have a thumb war to decide who gets the run or the out. No one will get hurt then either. That would let the players decide the outcome on the field, too.

Are comments like that really necessary? Give us some credit for knowing the game, and seeing that play is evolving away from collisions at home plate being routine. Give it another decade, max.

 

[gp956]

...and lest anyone think I'm being a homer abut this. Last week Posey rolled up a bit on the legs of the SS on a take out slide at second base. I was critical of that as well.

 

[Heathbar012]

I think you are making it way too complex. Simply apply the interpretations that exist now for infielders applying a tag on steal attempts. You're also missing the language of the rule as applied to intentional acts intended to dislodge a ball from the fielder.

If a fielder is blocking the bag or plate, should the runner slide in and hope the ump calls the block, or attempt to dislodge the ball and hope the ump doesn't call interference? Why not let them figure it out themselves?

Outside of general terms, in this specific instance, everyone on this board has now seen the replay close to 100 times, if not more. We all have an emotional response to our guy going down. We all have an emotional response to any player's career possibly being over based on a situation that, if the rules were strictly followed all season, might not have happened.

I understand that players are much bigger and faster than when a lot of these rules were written, so a more strict interpretation might be necessary. Stop and think how many home plate collisions that we've all seen in our lives. I'm pretty sure a majority of those didn't end with serious injuries (longer than a 15-day DL stint). An even smaller percentage of those involved star players getting injured. That shouldn't have a bearing on if the rule is enforced or not (I believe they should follow the rule book as closely as human error will allow). But if questions of monetary investment are factored into the reasons for strict enforcement, then the fact that these situations rarely involve an expensive player need to be factored in as well. I'm not saying everything is hunky-dorey and all umps should ignore instances of obstruction and interference. Those rules are there for good reason, and I am always in favor of keeping athletes as safe as possible. That's what it comes down to, though. These guys know what they're getting into. They know what it takes to win games. I still don't see how, in real time, an ump can make a definitive decision on that one play. How much of the plate needs to be blocked for obstruction? Is attempting to dislodge the ball during minor obstruction considered interference? Can an ump make that determination accurately while seeing if the tag was made in time?

I think there has been an immediate call to action because a star player got hurt. Furthermore, it was a star player that everyone on this board really likes. Had all of us only seen this play in real time, with a rule book in front of us, involving two players we don't care about it, I think everyone would have said, "Wow. That was a helluva play at the plate. I hope that guy is okay." And moved on.

 

[Heathbar012]

Are comments like that really necessary? Give us some credit for knowing the game, and seeing that play is evolving away from collisions at home plate being routine. Give it another decade, max.

Comments like that are necessary for humor. I'm not talking down to anyone. Don't paint it that way.

It looks like this boils down to the fact that I believe collisions at home plate are a part of the game and now, all of the sudden, other Giants fans do not. That is fine. I understand it. There is a rule about attempting to dislodge the ball being interference. There are also many other rules that the umps have to be cognizant of that I am much more worried about. Like most rulings, umps should take on obstruction and interference calls on a case by case basis. If an ump thought Posey's slide into second was too high, it is well within his rights to call the other base runner out at first. It's also well within the rules to call obstruction on a fielder blocking any base. I'm just of the opinion that switching the focus of an umpire (during a bang-bang play) when they rarely are consistent with other facets of the game is a bad idea. I think this seems like an important and just cause because of this injury, but the amount of bad calls and speculation that would be avoided by letting them settle it on the field is immense.

 

[ColinCoby]

No. Haven't heard that. But, worst case, assuming he has a torn acl and meniscus damage, I could see him not catching in 2012, or ever again. Gonna be tough to do much rehab until the broken leg/foot heals.

Marcus makes one really good point though:

My point: If Any of the big money players had run into Posey odds are they slide or try to go around the throw. Cousins had nothing to lose Posey has everything to lose.

Don't give him too much credit. Kuip said more or less the same thing on KNBR this morning.