POLL The Lakers, Spurs, Leonard, DeRozan, and the idiot Raptors

[WiggyRuss]

the main driver behind rookie stats is of course opportunity.

It is rare to see a rookie with both great stats and good efficiency. One of the reasons Kyrie Irving is so special is how amazing his rookie season was stat wise.

 

[Mecca]

honestly...i know I will be labeled a lakers hater for saying this- and i am without a doubt a Lakers hater--- but i fucking hate what they did besides the LeBron signing.

Stephenson has never done anything outside of Indiana. The Pacers basically turned down the same thing the Lakers gave Stephenson. He cant shoot and needs the ball in his hands. He at least is a solid defender when motivated.

McGee is simply awful and should not be playing anything but a bit role. Right now I see ESPN.com has him as a starter on the depth chart and that is a disaster waiting to happen.

Kuzma is a guy I like- and while I think power forwards that can score a little are a dime a dozen- he does seem athletic enough to not get torn up switching the pick and roll. He has a decent/solid three point shot that should hopefully only get better. He is an average rebounder. While he prob. doesnt start on a majority of teams in the NBA- I think he is a solid fit with LeBron and should be a useful player.

Ingram is a good talent. Like I said- i dont see him ever becoming a top 25. To me he seems like a little bit of DeMar DeRozan. He is not an athletic guy that gets to the rim and rocks it with his pure talent. He is not a pure shooter. He is kind of a crafty mid range guy that gets his scoring all over the place. He is a twig defensively and can get pushed around the court. I do like his ability to pass though. He is a guy that has the scorer's mentality but is also a willing passer which is rare out of a young guy.

Rondo used to be good on defense a half-decade ago but he is living on his name now. To quote "Pelicans’ defensive rating with Rondo on the floor is 116.1, a putrid mark which would easily result in the worst defense in the league over the course of the season. Over the past couple of seasons, Rondo’s teams were slightly worse defensively with him on the court vs. off, but nothing nearly as drastic as what we have seen so far this season. "-- that was very early in the season though just to be clear. He is a terrible 3 pt shooter.

Ball is actually a pretty good defender-----"Last season, the Lakers rookie ranked third among point guards in ESPN's defensive real plus-minus with a plus-2.31 figure. Rondo checked in at No. 46 with a minus-0.37. The best you can say about Rondo's D in 2017-18 is it wasn't quite as awful as it was the year before: minus-0.49.". I think he should start over Rondo. Ball's shooting is a real problem though. In today's NBA having 2 non-shooters on the floor hurts. Having 3 non-shooters on the floor is death to an offense- all the other team has to do is pack the paint.

Ball has great size, and is a very good rebounder for a guard and has the tools to be a good defender- but offensively he is atrocious. The thing is- we know Ball cant shoot- but he is also a bad pick and roll point guard too. He is not athletic enough to turn on the jets and get by a defender and finish at the rim. His pick and roll numbers were terrible. You basically do not have to guard the guy.

KCP spent a decent portion of last season IN JAIL because he refused to show up to court to deal with his DUI from what I read. He is okay- but its not like he is anything better than a decent role player. 12M is the LeBron Tax.

Meh....I don't see the Finals for them.

I don't think they have a shot against the top 2 teams in the West nor the Celtics.

Everyone else?

I give them a punchers chance and would not bat an eye if they get 50 wins and to the 2nd round.

LeBron is good enough to beat the 3rd seed on down by himself.

I don't like some of their moves. But...

They have LeBron.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

honestly...i know I will be labeled a lakers hater for saying this- and i am without a doubt a Lakers hater--- but i fucking hate what they did besides the LeBron signing.

Stephenson has never done anything outside of Indiana. The Pacers basically turned down the same thing the Lakers gave Stephenson. He cant shoot and needs the ball in his hands. He at least is a solid defender when motivated.

McGee is simply awful and should not be playing anything but a bit role. Right now I see ESPN.com has him as a starter on the depth chart and that is a disaster waiting to happen.

Kuzma is a guy I like- and while I think power forwards that can score a little are a dime a dozen- he does seem athletic enough to not get torn up switching the pick and roll. He has a decent/solid three point shot that should hopefully only get better. He is an average rebounder. While he prob. doesnt start on a majority of teams in the NBA- I think he is a solid fit with LeBron and should be a useful player.

Ingram is a good talent. Like I said- i dont see him ever becoming a top 25. To me he seems like a little bit of DeMar DeRozan. He is not an athletic guy that gets to the rim and rocks it with his pure talent. He is not a pure shooter. He is kind of a crafty mid range guy that gets his scoring all over the place. He is a twig defensively and can get pushed around the court. I do like his ability to pass though. He is a guy that has the scorer's mentality but is also a willing passer which is rare out of a young guy.

Rondo used to be good on defense a half-decade ago but he is living on his name now. To quote "Pelicans’ defensive rating with Rondo on the floor is 116.1, a putrid mark which would easily result in the worst defense in the league over the course of the season. Over the past couple of seasons, Rondo’s teams were slightly worse defensively with him on the court vs. off, but nothing nearly as drastic as what we have seen so far this season. "-- that was very early in the season though just to be clear. He is a terrible 3 pt shooter.

Ball is actually a pretty good defender-----"Last season, the Lakers rookie ranked third among point guards in ESPN's defensive real plus-minus with a plus-2.31 figure. Rondo checked in at No. 46 with a minus-0.37. The best you can say about Rondo's D in 2017-18 is it wasn't quite as awful as it was the year before: minus-0.49.". I think he should start over Rondo. Ball's shooting is a real problem though. In today's NBA having 2 non-shooters on the floor hurts. Having 3 non-shooters on the floor is death to an offense- all the other team has to do is pack the paint.

Ball has great size, and is a very good rebounder for a guard and has the tools to be a good defender- but offensively he is atrocious. The thing is- we know Ball cant shoot- but he is also a bad pick and roll point guard too. He is not athletic enough to turn on the jets and get by a defender and finish at the rim. His pick and roll numbers were terrible. You basically do not have to guard the guy.

KCP spent a decent portion of last season IN JAIL because he refused to show up to court to deal with his DUI from what I read. He is okay- but its not like he is anything better than a decent role player. 12M is the LeBron Tax.

You're quoting numbers and stats for players on a new team, with new team mates, playing under a completely different system.

Michael Jordan averaged 30ppg over his career in the NBA but only averaged 16ppg playing for Team USA - why do you think that was?

I'm not saying the Lakers are miraculously going to win all their games and the entire team will be all-stars, but players are going to average COMPLETELY different stats this year compared to last.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Dude, Tyreke Evans Shit all over Lonzo's rookie stats.

That's off the top of my head.

I don't actually care enough to go look up anyone else because this argument has been done before.

Lonzo had a good Rookie year.

But, his numbers weren't earth shattering.

He wasn't even the best rookie on his own team.

Sure, he could turn out to be J Kidd.

But, MCW is a possibility too.

And again, we're arguing over a rookie who only played 50 games over the season.

This guys numbers will probably look completely different playing with Lebron next year.

 

[Mecca]

the main driver behind rookie stats is of course opportunity.

It is rare to see a rookie with both great stats and good efficiency. One of the reasons Kyrie Irving is so special is how amazing his rookie season was stat wise.

Agree.

That was my point.

It's obvious Lonzo has a higher ceiling.

But, he's not the better player today.

 

[Mecca]

And again, we're arguing over a rookie who only played 50 games over the season.

This guys numbers will probably look completely different playing with Lebron next year.

Whose arguing that?

I'm saying Rozier is better than Lonzo.

You posted their rookie comparisons as if that's a indication of who's best.

Lonzo played more games than Terry and 4 times the minutes per game as a rookie.

1996 Draft....

Player A puts up 15, 9 with 1.5 blocks.

Player B puts up 10,6 with 1.5 blocks.

Player A is better right?

Wrong

Player A turned out to be Joe Smith, Player B Kevin Garnett.

CJ McCollum averaged 6ppg his first 2 years being buried behind Dame, Matthews and Batum....

Look at him now.

Court time and opportunity.

Lonzo had it, Rozier didn't.

Yes, age and experience is a factor.

 

[Mecca]

Dear God, TY.

My power is finally back on.

We had a hell of a monsoon last night.

I can finally leave this damn hotel and go home.

Good debate @Shaqdaddy11

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

Whose arguing that?

I'm saying Rozier is better than Lonzo.

You posted their rookie comparisons as if that's a indication of who's best.

Lonzo played more games than Terry and 4 times the minutes per game as a rookie.

1996 Draft....

Player A puts up 15, 9 with 1.5 blocks.

Player B puts up 10,6 with 1.5 blocks.

Player A is better right?

Wrong

Player A turned out to be Joe Smith, Player B Kevin Garnett.

CJ McCollum averaged 6ppg his first 2 years being buried behind Dame, Matthews and Batum....

Look at him now.

Court time and opportunity.

Lonzo had it, Rozier didn't.

Yes, age and experience is a factor.

I fuckin loved Joe Smith

 

[trojanfan12]

I don't remember hearing any rumors saying we want all the Celtics young guys EXCEPT ROZIER.

To be fair, that had more to do with Lavar than Lonzo. I remember hearing that Pop actually liked Lonzo's game...but didn't want to deal with Lavar's shit.

Having said that, if I'm making a trade for one or the other right now...I'm taking Rozier.

I think Lonzo will ultimately be the better player. But right now, it's Rozier.

 

[tlance]

Dude, Tyreke Evans Shit all over Lonzo's rookie stats.

That's off the top of my head.

I don't actually care enough to go look up anyone else because this argument has been done before.

Lonzo had a good Rookie year.

But, his numbers weren't earth shattering.

He wasn't even the best rookie on his own team.

Sure, he could turn out to be J Kidd.

But, MCW is a possibility too.

Not all these guys were better than Lonzo, but as rookies they all showed promise, then utterly failed.

Off the top of my head:

Brandon Jennings
Jahlil Okafor
Emmanuel Mudiay
Johnny Flynn

Rookies drafted early tend to get the benefit of the doubt and get a lot of PT. After a couple years, when their efficiency hasn't gotten much better, they end up benched or even out of the league entirely.

Lonz's rookie stats are meaningless because he had opportunity to play a lot of minutes and his efficiency was awful. Rozier's rookie stats are meaningless because he played 8 minutes a game. You can't use per 36 stats for a guy so Sporadically used. Just doesn't work.

Lonzo might end up being an allstar, but he might suck.

I can guarantee Terry Rozier doesn't suck. Worst case he is a high quality backup or a low quality starter. Lonzo's floor is lower, but his ceiling is defintely higher.

 

[Inimical]

Meh....I don't see the Finals for them.

I don't think they have a shot against the top 2 teams in the West nor the Celtics.

Everyone else?

I give them a punchers chance and would not bat an eye if they get 50 wins and to the 2nd round.

LeBron is good enough to beat the 3rd seed on down by himself.

I don't like some of their moves. But...

They have LeBron.

 

[thunderc]

If I had to bet right now on if Ball will ever be an all star it’s definitely a no for me.

 

[flyerhawk]

If I had to bet right now on if Ball will ever be an all star it’s definitely a no for me.

A few of the Lakers fans here think that Kuzma, Ball, Ingram and Hart will all be all-stars someday.

 

[WiggyRuss]

A few of the Lakers fans here think that Kuzma, Ball, Ingram and Hart will all be all-stars someday.

they should be happy if one of them is an all star someday.

 

[Mecca]

I fuckin loved Joe Smith

Me too.

I was Stationed at FT Meade when he went to College at Maryland.


Weird draft class.

Garnett was obviously the best player. But, folks weren't taking High Schoolers all Willy nilly back then.

Hard to say who was 2nd best.

Rasheed, Damon Stodimire, Stackhouse, Mcdyess?

 

[WiggyRuss]

Me too.

I was Stationed at FT Meade when he went to College at Maryland.


Weird draft class.

Garnett was obviously the best player. But, folks weren't taking High Schoolers all Willy nilly back then.

Hard to say who was 2nd best.

Rasheed, Damon Stodimire, Stackhouse, Mcdyess?

Ft. Meade is where most of the codebreaking is isnt it?

 

[Mecca]

Ft. Meade is where most of the codebreaking is isnt it?

Yup.

I was a crypto tech when I was active duty.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Yup.

I was a crypto tech when I was active duty.

thats pretty cool. very interesting.

What did that job entail, if you can even asnwer that question, lol.

 

[shopson67]

Dude, Tyreke Evans Shit all over Lonzo's rookie stats.

That's off the top of my head.

I don't actually care enough to go look up anyone else because this argument has been done before.

Lonzo had a good Rookie year.

But, his numbers weren't earth shattering.

He wasn't even the best rookie on his own team.

Sure, he could turn out to be J Kidd.

But, MCW is a possibility too.

Tyreke: 37.2 min, 20.1 pts on 16.2 att, .458/.255/.748, 5.3 reb, 5.8 ast, .4 blk, 1.5 stl, 2.8 PF, 3.0 TO
Ball: 34.2 min, 10.2 pts on 10.8 att, .360/.305/.451, 6.9 reb, 7.2 ast, .8 blk, 1.7 stl, 2.3 PF, 2.6 TO

Tyreke scored more with better shooting percentages except from 3. Ball was better in every other phase of the game in fewer minutes. Your definition of "shit all over" is very different from mine. MCW is much the same, scored more on better shooting percentages and more attempts (except from 3) and lagged behind Ball in everything else other than steals, albeit in similar minutes.

Both Tyreke and MCW have talent, they just haven't had consistent opportunity. Tyreke has moved all over the place, and MCW can't stay healthy.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Tyreke: 37.2 min, 20.1 pts on 16.2 att, .458/.255/.748, 5.3 reb, 5.8 ast, .4 blk, 1.5 stl, 2.8 PF, 3.0 TO
Ball: 34.2 min, 10.2 pts on 10.8 att, .360/.305/.451, 6.9 reb, 7.2 ast, .8 blk, 1.7 stl, 2.3 PF, 2.6 TO

Tyreke scored more with better shooting percentages except from 3. Ball was better in every other phase of the game in fewer minutes. Your definition of "shit all over" is very different from mine. MCW is much the same, scored more on better shooting percentages and more attempts (except from 3) and lagged behind Ball in everything else other than steals, albeit in similar minutes.

Both Tyreke and MCW have talent, they just haven't had consistent opportunity. Tyreke has moved all over the place, and MCW can't stay healthy.

do you realize HOW GOOD it is for a rookie guard to score 20 pts with a .458 FG%? Its practically unheard of.

do you realize HOW BAD you have to shoot to shoot 36% from the floor? Lonzo was arguably the worst shooter in the entire NBA last season.

For JUST the purposes of this year- of course you would take Rozier- a guy who just got done averaging 17-5-5 in 19 playoff games going against great competition when it matters.

I obviously think Ball is going to not deliver on being the #2 pick- but I can without a doubt say he has better potential than Rozier---- having said that- for THIS year? I really do not see how its particularly close unless Ball substantially raises his shooting percentage to something that does not make him a significant liability on the offensive end. I dont think you truly appreciate how horrid a 36% shooting percentage is.

Not only that- but you act like 30.5% is "better than" the 25.5% Evans shot from 3---- but Ball shot almost 6 shots a game behind the 3 pt line, while Evans had less than 2 attempts per game- prob. because he realized he sucks at that shot and hsouldnt take it. Id MUCH rather have a guy take less than 2 attempts per game and shoot 25.5% from 3, instead of just continuing to chuck up almost 6 three's a game and shoot 30.5% from 3.

Also, when you shoot .451 from the free throw line- you become almost unplayable. Will Ball even be able to stay on the court in crunch time situations this year? Its not like they can afford to just say- "Hey let the rookie keep chucking em up its not like we are doing anything this year anyway like last year". Evans at almost 75% a game was solid. I wouldnt have pulled Ball off the court in a lost season either- but if you are going to try and make the playoffs this year you cant have a guy shoointg 50% from the line on the court- usually its big men that have no shot we are discussing like this- but we are talking about a GUARD- in today's NBA where shooting has NEVER been more important.

and .4 blocks per game. .5 less fouls? some of this stuff is just materially irrelevant.