The Hammer Question

[sychmd]

Woah, woah, woah. There is an extraordinarily short list which I would even entertain the thought of trading Cutch. He's future top 5 player in the league material. He's pretty freaking high up there already, under control for 6 years. Now, if they trade Cutch, I'm done.

i love cutch and the fact that he signed.
but he is ave in CF, poor routes and no arm.
hitting he will always be an allstar.

the point is, for the right superstud, which we dont have, i would consider trading anyone, esp hammer.

with that said, i do believe that closing out games you have worked hard to have a lead is really important to morale and to growing a winning attitude. it's ashame to work hard for 8 innings and let it get away. very demoralizing to the team, starters, hitters, and pushes other FA away.

 

[element1286]

we do not have a 5 tool superstar,
if we can get one that is young and no injury history, i would be willing to trade cutch, let alone anyone else.

If Cutch isn't a five tool superstar, then there is no such thing.

 

[thecrow124]

I would actually be ok going a different route, because I just don't see teams with bats to spare that would want a closer with 1.5 years of control. I would be ok with trading prospects to teams to get bats in return. I am not sure if anyone has noticed or not, but the NL Central sucks......bad, we actually have a shot at winning it, if we can get some offense. I believe we can get some offense at the major league level, without decimating our minor league system.

The Cubs are looking for anything to add to their minor leagues, a couple C level minor league pitchers could probably return Sean LaHair, this also allows them to save face and still get Rizzo to the major leagues.

The Royals are also looking for pitching, and still have a slew of young talent in the minors. It may take JMac, Cole or Taillon plus a couple more prospects, but I think they would listen on Wil Myers, and yes I would do that trade in a heartbeat. I would also ask on Brett Butler, but would not give up nearly as much.

I just think that with the new playoff structure this year, we are going to have to be creative to add anything, there are just to many teams looking to add this year. There are other major league ready players at AAA we could target, but I don't feel like doing to research right now. This is the only way I can see us actually adding anything is if it is a top prospect in the upper minors.

 

[pixburgher66]

I would actually be ok going a different route, because I just don't see teams with bats to spare that would want a closer with 1.5 years of control. I would be ok with trading prospects to teams to get bats in return. I am not sure if anyone has noticed or not, but the NL Central sucks......bad, we actually have a shot at winning it, if we can get some offense. I believe we can get some offense at the major league level, without decimating our minor league system.

The Cubs are looking for anything to add to their minor leagues, a couple C level minor league pitchers could probably return Sean LaHair, this also allows them to save face and still get Rizzo to the major leagues.

The Royals are also looking for pitching, and still have a slew of young talent in the minors. It may take JMac, Cole or Taillon plus a couple more prospects, but I think they would listen on Wil Myers, and yes I would do that trade in a heartbeat. I would also ask on Brett Butler, but would not give up nearly as much.

I just think that with the new playoff structure this year, we are going to have to be creative to add anything, there are just to many teams looking to add this year. There are other major league ready players at AAA we could target, but I don't feel like doing to research right now. This is the only way I can see us actually adding anything is if it is a top prospect in the upper minors.

We don't have many top prospects at the upper levels yet. Marte is about it really.

 

[sychmd]

If Cutch isn't a five tool superstar, then there is no such thing.

5 tools - means EXCELLENT in these 5 areas
1. hit for ave, 2. hit for power, 3 speed, 4. field, 5. arm.

1. hit for average - this is the first year we are seeing that. hasnt hapened the other years. 3+ and hopefully a 4+ if maintains this years productivity.
2. power - not sure 25 HR constitutes 5 tool power. 3+
3. speed is excellent but cant steal bases. 5+
4. cutch is an average fielder. no arm, poor routes. 3+
did you see that guy get a double on a ball hit in front of cutch toward left center. should never have happened.
he makes some nice sliding catches but a third are from slow jump or looping route.
5. average arm at best. no gun there and not real acccurate either. never throws a rope and hits the target at the knee.2+ - 3-

so no, not a 5 tool guy

 

[element1286]

I agree crow, I don't see a match with a team that needs a reliever, and has a ML ready bat to trade. But I'd have a hard time trading Cole/Taillon/Bell for anyone.

But I wouldn't have a problem with them trading the mid range guys for a mid range bat.

 

[element1286]

5 tools - means EXCELLENT in these 5 areas
1. hit for ave, 2. hit for power, 3 speed, 4. field, 5. arm.

1. hit for average - this is the first year we are seeing that. hasnt hapened the other years. 3+ and hopefully a 4+ if maintains this years productivity.
2. power - not sure 25 HR constitutes 5 tool power. 3+
3. speed is excellent but cant steal bases. 5+
4. cutch is an average fielder. no arm, poor routes. 3+
did you see that guy get a double on a ball hit in front of cutch toward left center. should never have happened.
he makes some nice sliding catches but a third are from slow jump or looping route.
5. average arm at best. no gun there and not real acccurate either. never throws a rope and hits the target at the knee.2+ - 3-

so no, not a 5 tool guy

Unless I'm mistaken, 5 tool players are guys that are at least average across all 5 tools. The arm is debatable but I can't agree that he is an average fielder.

 

[SFNL]

The Pirates have been involved in a ton of 1 run games.... I cant help but think that isnt going to change much going forward (even with 1 more bat) and I also cant help but think that any closer less than Hanrahan already has us 5 games under 500. You can't give that up on this team.

Just my opinion

 

[sychmd]

we have to be willing to send several minor leaguers for one bat stud. we have pitching abundant at the big leagues and the minors. we have to send some decent quality.

i would hold on to taillon and cole unless they each get 2 above average major league starters that are 1 or 2 years away at most. last to be traded as aces have the highest value and will always be needed by the bucs and they are close to ml ready.

bell, i would trade in a package if it brings a stud that can play now. he is so young and already hurt. never know if young hitters can hit the offspeed stuff and be selective enough and make adjustments.

my biggest fear is we get someone not quite finished and we rely on our development team. we just dont develop hitters very well. not sure if we know how to evaluate our minor league talent to know who still has more potential and who is maxed out.

i think we should sell on walker if he starts to spurt as he isnt going to be more than average but to the outside might seem to have a high ceiling.

 

[thecrow124]

I agree crow, I don't see a match with a team that needs a reliever, and has a ML ready bat to trade. But I'd have a hard time trading Cole/Taillon/Bell for anyone.

But I wouldn't have a problem with them trading the mid range guys for a mid range bat.

Hard time pulling the trigger, yes, for someone like Myers, not that big of a deal. For someone like Profar, again not a big deal. I am not saying we should trade them for Billy Butler, think i said brett earlier.
I would not even condone trading any of them away for a package of players, I would trade them for an impact player though.

 

[thecrow124]

We don't have many top prospects at the upper levels yet. Marte is about it really.

Why did you quote me? I didn't say anything about top prospects in our upper minors. I was referring to top prospects in other teams minor league systems as players we should target.

 

[26 elroy face]

Okay...so...the deadline approacheth. And most Pirate fans would agree that outside of our big guys (Cutch, Pedro, etc. etc.), Hanrahan would garner the greatest return. So, even though there's a small chance we'll be in the postseason picture, there's quite a good chance that the team overall would benefit greatly from trading Hammer. With a guy like Jason Grilli showing off how he has this season, and a guy like Cruz developing into a good 7/8 inning guy, and just the rest of our bullpen being amazing, you have to think they could actually afford to move him and still have success in the pen. Of course this all depends on the return, but would you do it? I know he's a fan favorite, but that means little to me, and should mean little to NH.

Why is Pedro a big guy?

 

[pixburgher66]

Why did you quote me? I didn't say anything about top prospects in our upper minors. I was referring to top prospects in other teams minor league systems as players we should target.

Just mis-read. Sorry.

Why is Pedro a big guy?

Because if this team decides to give up on him now, they're insane. And he'd have little valuable return most likely. I know that sounds contradictory, but you can't give up on him yet. Far too much potential.

 

[thecrow124]

Just mis-read. Sorry.



Because if this team decides to give up on him now, they're insane. And he'd have little valuable return most likely. I know that sounds contradictory, but you can't give up on him yet. Far too much potential.

For the record, I gave up on him after his signing fiasco, and I believe every game he plays for us his trade value goes down. I also believe that he will go to another team and be the productive player that we all envisioned when he was drafted. That being said, if I were the GM I would not hesitate to trade him at the deadline for any type of return.

 

[pixburgher66]

For the record, I gave up on him after his signing fiasco, and I believe every game he plays for us his trade value goes down. I also believe that he will go to another team and be the productive player that we all envisioned when he was drafted. That being said, if I were the GM I would not hesitate to trade him at the deadline for any type of return.

 

[26 elroy face]

5 tools - means EXCELLENT in these 5 areas
1. hit for ave, 2. hit for power, 3 speed, 4. field, 5. arm.

1. hit for average - this is the first year we are seeing that. hasnt hapened the other years. 3+ and hopefully a 4+ if maintains this years productivity.
2. power - not sure 25 HR constitutes 5 tool power. 3+
3. speed is excellent but cant steal bases. 5+
4. cutch is an average fielder. no arm, poor routes. 3+
did you see that guy get a double on a ball hit in front of cutch toward left center. should never have happened.
he makes some nice sliding catches but a third are from slow jump or looping route.
5. average arm at best. no gun there and not real acccurate either. never throws a rope and hits the target at the knee.2+ - 3-

so no, not a 5 tool guy

Are you saying that players like Roberto Clemente, Dave Parker, and Barry Bonds weren't five tool players? Clemente, and Parker did it a lot of HRs, and Bonds' arm was considered average.

 

[sychmd]

5 tool players are rare.
you can be a HOF and not be a 5 tool player.
obviously the babe was not a 5 tool player.
sure, a lot start out with the potential, but they become average in many areas when facing real competition.
for some, a player is so great in some areas that scouts exaggerate the weaker elements to hope for a great one with some tutelage.
Bonds(pre juice): speed=5, field=4, power=3+, average=3+, arm=2-
Parker(pre drugs): arm=5, Power=4+, ave=5, speed=5-, field=5-
Clemente: arm=5, ave=5, field=5, speed=4+, power=3 (hard to tell a righty in forbes hitting for average.

ARod is probably the best contemporary example is a 5 in all areas.

IMHO

 

[thecrow124]

Read through all the Pedro threads on this board, I am very serious.

 

[WVUinVegas]

5 tools - means EXCELLENT in these 5 areas
1. hit for ave, 2. hit for power, 3 speed, 4. field, 5. arm.

1. hit for average - this is the first year we are seeing that. hasnt hapened the other years. 3+ and hopefully a 4+ if maintains this years productivity.
2. power - not sure 25 HR constitutes 5 tool power. 3+
3. speed is excellent but cant steal bases. 5+
4. cutch is an average fielder. no arm, poor routes. 3+
did you see that guy get a double on a ball hit in front of cutch toward left center. should never have happened.
he makes some nice sliding catches but a third are from slow jump or looping route.
5. average arm at best. no gun there and not real acccurate either. never throws a rope and hits the target at the knee.2+ - 3-

so no, not a 5 tool guy

By this definition, Willie Mays is the only 5 tool player in major league history. lol

 

[sychmd]

Willie Mays, Mantle, ARod, Griffey Jr,
Parker really was close as was strawberry, what a shame they took the path they did.
Yes it is rare, many are touted, few fulfill.
so we now water it down to who has average of these. well what does that mean, average.
average 5 tool player line - 15 - 22 HR, 280 ave, 12-15 SB, fielding is ....... average.
what the heck is this.
that is why the criteria is excellent in all 5.
if you want to make it excellent in 3 and above average in 2 to expand the category and water it down, that is ok, but then call it the 4 TOOL Player with icing, not a 5 tool player. just my soapbox.
when a person says 5 tool, i dont want to have to figure out which 2 or 3 are really level 5, which ones are + and which one is average or below.
5 tool means no explanation. they are a 5 on all of the tools.