The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[rmilia1]

Ill take a Crack

Greatest offensive player of all time- MJ is in the discussion but the only real argument for him is ppg where him and Wilt are tied.

But MJ doesn't have the most points overall ( LeBron ), doesn't have most playoff points ( Lebron ) or the most 60/50/40/30 point games in league history

And MJs offensive game really was not that versatile. He was a great finisher and good in the mid range but his 3 pt game was below average and he was not a great passer

Greatest defensive player of all time- not really much of an argument for MJ here. He was certainly a very awarded defender ( not the most ever or even really close but still very good ) but the actual metrics are just very good not even great

There's an argument for him as a top 10 defensive GUARD ever but not as an overall player

Many people in the top 10 overall debate were better defensively ( Russell, Kareem, Hakeen, Duncan, Kobe ) and others not in the overall top 10 debate were excellent defensively ( KG )

Greatest winner ever- this is pretty clearly Russell but others have an argument. Magic has 5 rings and the best win % ever. Kareem has 6 rings and the most wins ever.

Havlicek had the most rings ever without a Finals loss ( 8 )

Not sure what the argument for MJ is here

Awards and accolades- MJ certainly has an argument here bur he's not at the top of the list. That would be Kareem who has more MVPs than MaJ, more all NBA, more AS nods, more all defensive teams. Im not even sure id have MJ over LeBron here but that's at least a debate. Its really not with Kareem

Athleticism-, this is the first spot id consider having MH #1 but it's close with Wilr. I wouldn't be upset either way

Clutch- this is kind of an opinion based deal so it's tougher to gauge. There isn't really a metric that would lead you to conclude MJ it's the most clutch player ever other than total game winning shots but that is also a function of how many he took. % wise he's not really in the debate but it's fair to say MJ was clutch

Iconic- this is absolutely aMJs best argument. He changed his people viewed the game and exploded its popularity. Add in the Nike stuff ( Jumpman ) and the Dream Team and there's really no debate MJ is the most iconic player ever. And that's a huge monster part of why he's largely seen as maybe slightly better as a player than he really was.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I like advanced statistics. Here's a year by year Player efficiency rating of Lebron vs. MJ. PER is statistics per minute, with pace of play taken into account.

And, I'm going to go by age, because Lebron came straight out of high school while MJ had college to develop.

Age: (Lebron) [MJ]
18: (18.3)
19: (25.7)
20: (28.1)
21: (24.5) [25.8]
22: (29.0) [27.5]
23: (31.7) [29.8]
24: +(31.1) +[31.7]
25: +(27.3) [31.1]
26: (30.7) [31.2]
27: +(31.6) +[31.6]
28: +(29.3) +[27.7]
29: (25.9) [29.7]
30: (27.5)
31: (27.0) [22.1]
32: (28.6) +[29.4]
33: (25.6) [27.8]
34: (25.4) +[25.8]
35: (24.2)
36: (26.1)
37: (23.8)
38: (23.7) [20.7]
39: (26.7) [19.3]

+ = MVP

Just interesting to look at how they compare. If MJ doesn't quit twice he may have been able to make it an NHL Gretzky issue as far as the GOAT and make it unquestioned. However, given what we have, MJ certainly is a prime suspect for GOAT, but he's not clear of Lebron. I'm fine with declaring the greatest players in each era, I don't NEED to declare someone the GOAT like many MJ fans feel the need to fight for MJ. However, there are holes in his claim.

 

[Jordan23]

Holy shit some of the comments in here are just retarded as hell. Derp he quit lol, ok!!!

 

[MAGA2024]

Ill take a Crack

Greatest offensive player of all time- MJ is in the discussion but the only real argument for him is ppg where him and Wilt are tied.

But MJ doesn't have the most points overall ( LeBron ), doesn't have most playoff points ( Lebron ) or the most 60/50/40/30 point games in league history

And MJs offensive game really was not that versatile. He was a great finisher and good in the mid range but his 3 pt game was below average and he was not a great passer

Greatest defensive player of all time- not really much of an argument for MJ here. He was certainly a very awarded defender ( not the most ever or even really close but still very good ) but the actual metrics are just very good not even great

There's an argument for him as a top 10 defensive GUARD ever but not as an overall player

Many people in the top 10 overall debate were better defensively ( Russell, Kareem, Hakeen, Duncan, Kobe ) and others not in the overall top 10 debate were excellent defensively ( KG )

Greatest winner ever- this is pretty clearly Russell but others have an argument. Magic has 5 rings and the best win % ever. Kareem has 6 rings and the most wins ever.

Havlicek had the most rings ever without a Finals loss ( 8 )

Not sure what the argument for MJ is here

Awards and accolades- MJ certainly has an argument here bur he's not at the top of the list. That would be Kareem who has more MVPs than MaJ, more all NBA, more AS nods, more all defensive teams. Im not even sure id have MJ over LeBron here but that's at least a debate. Its really not with Kareem

Athleticism-, this is the first spot id consider having MH #1 but it's close with Wilr. I wouldn't be upset either way

Clutch- this is kind of an opinion based deal so it's tougher to gauge. There isn't really a metric that would lead you to conclude MJ it's the most clutch player ever other than total game winning shots but that is also a function of how many he took. % wise he's not really in the debate but it's fair to say MJ was clutch

Iconic- this is absolutely aMJs best argument. He changed his people viewed the game and exploded its popularity. Add in the Nike stuff ( Jumpman ) and the Dream Team and there's really no debate MJ is the most iconic player ever. And that's a huge monster part of why he's largely seen as maybe slightly better as a player than he really was.

I'll go line-by-line to refute sccordingly:

Offense: What is the object of the game? Exactly, to outSCORE your opponent. Who is more valuable to the team, the guy who Passes TO the Scorer "or" the guy who doesn't need anyone to pass to him because he's the undisputed best, most unstoppable Scorer? The answer should be obvious... it's the Scorer, and aside from Wilt there was no more dominating Scorer than Jordan (and when you include Playoff/Finals Scoring there is no player close to MJ).

"Career" points? Eh... that's longevity. That means you were an great Scorer for a long time... like Malone, Kobe, Jabbar, LeBron, etc. Fair enough.

Also... to say Jordan's Offense was "not" very versitile suggests (respectfully) that you really aren't familiar with his game. He was deadly from 18-20 feet in, including the most unstoppable/unguardable shot outside of Jabbar's Skyhook... that being, his turnaround fade from the post. 3-point shoting wasn't a part of the game when Mike played, so you can't hold that against him; however even with that Jordan shot just as good in the Playoffs (from deep) as LeBron does for their careers... and unless you're simply using "Assists" to measure Passing "ability", Jordan was a fantastic Passer as well; however going back to the first point I made... why "pass" to less talented Scorers when you're winning Championships by being the dominating Scorer?

Point here is that Jordan is absolutely in the GOAT Offense discussion, along with Wilt, Jabbar, LeBron and maybe a few others.

Defense: Really not sure what to say when your claim is that Jordan "might be" a Top 10 Defensive "Guard" except to (once again) believe that you really are not familiar with Jordan's game.. and to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Jordan "is" the GOAT is all these categories, just that he's in the discussion... and yes, with the awards "and" some of the records he set on the Defensive end alone, he's clearly in that discussion overall, and most certaintly among Guards.

Name me all the Guards in history who were more decorated, better perimeters defenders, better at playing the Passing lanes, and better on-ball defenders. "Maybe" Top 10 among Guards. That's just not an accurate statement.

Anyway,... LeBron isn't close to being in the GOAT Defense discussion overall "or" even at his position (Forward). Sure, he had a 4-5 year stretch in his career where he played D at that level, but 4-5 years does not put you on Jordan's level.

Winner: Only Russell has more Rings as a player you might say was the best guy on the team... and even that's debatable because Russ played alongside a boatload of other legit HOFERS. Hondo is undefeated in the Finals yes, but not all his Rings came with him as the best player on the team, or even the second best. Jordan? Without question he was the undisputed best/most valuable player on all 6 Championships... and his undefeated mark in the Finals is the cherry on the top.

This category is clearly between Jordan and Russell... LeBron is nowhere in the discussion... too many losses to Lower seeds (Jordan never lost to a lower seed) and too many losses in the Finals.

Awards/Accolades: I would argue Jordan IS the GOAT in this category when you consider he only played 13 seasons (where he qualified for said awards) and STILL has more overall MVP's than Jabbar or LeBron. He also has more more combined "First" Team All NBA and All Defense selections than those two... and we're talking GOAT here, so while 2nd/3rd team selections definitely do matter, they're not wining any argument over a guy with 19 "first" team selections in just 13 qualifying seasons. But again, we both agree that Jordan is in the GOAT discussion here.

Athleticism: Again, we agree Mike is the GOAT, or certainly in the discussion.

Clutch: There are some metrics used (I mentioned one in my previous post), but again it seems we both agree Jordan is (at least) in the discussion in this category as well.

Iconic: Again we both agree

Skills/Weaknesses: You overlooked this one... and it's important IMO. Jordan literally had no weakness/flaw to his game. The absolute "worst" part of his game was 3-point shooting; however even here he was "average" relative to the league at the time. Skills? do we need to even go-there? Suffice to say Jordan is also in the GOAT discussion in this area as well.

...and I would even add another category:

Peer Dominance: Aside from awards/accolades (already mentioned) no player in history has led the league in as many statistical categories (both raw and advanced stats) as Jordan. Wilt comes close (and was more dominating in the raw stat category during the Regular season) but he falls short in the Advanced metric department AND woefully short in both during the Playoffs.

So now... pick a player (any player) and see how he stacks up to Jordan in all these categories. You won't find one who is at least in the GOAT discussion in as many as Jordan.

LeBron (since this is a LeBron/MJ debate)? In category order, where LeBron is "at least" in the GOAT discussion:

Yes - Offense
No - Defense
No - Winner
Yes - Awards
No - Athleticism
Maybe - Clutch (he's had some very clutch performances BUT also many stinkers)
No - Iconic
No - Skills/Flaws/Weaknesses (he's not very "skilled" beyond Passing if we're being honest, and he has several flaws)
Maybe - Peer (yes on the advanced metrics side, no on raw)

Conclusion: LeBron is far behind Jordan.

 

[MAGA2024]

I like advanced statistics. Here's a year by year Player efficiency rating of Lebron vs. MJ. PER is statistics per minute, with pace of play taken into account.

And, I'm going to go by age, because Lebron came straight out of high school while MJ had college to develop.

Age: (Lebron) [MJ]
18: (18.3)
19: (25.7)
20: (28.1)
21: (24.5) [25.8]
22: (29.0) [27.5]
23: (31.7) [29.8]
24: +(31.1) +[31.7]
25: +(27.3) [31.1]
26: (30.7) [31.2]
27: +(31.6) +[31.6]
28: +(29.3) +[27.7]
29: (25.9) [29.7]
30: (27.5)
31: (27.0) [22.1]
32: (28.6) +[29.4]
33: (25.6) [27.8]
34: (25.4) +[25.8]
35: (24.2)
36: (26.1)
37: (23.8)
38: (23.7) [20.7]
39: (26.7) [19.3]

+ = MVP

Just interesting to look at how they compare. If MJ doesn't quit twice he may have been able to make it an NHL Gretzky issue as far as the GOAT and make it unquestioned. However, given what we have, MJ certainly is a prime suspect for GOAT, but he's not clear of Lebron. I'm fine with declaring the greatest players in each era, I don't NEED to declare someone the GOAT like many MJ fans feel the need to fight for MJ. However, there are holes in his claim.

PER by age?? Eh... ok.

LeBron is up there with Jordan in the Advance Metric department, no question; however this is just one (1) facet/category.

 

[msgkings322]

PER by age?? Eh... ok.

LeBron is up there with Jordan in the Advance Metric department, no question; however this is just one (1) facet/category.

In this particular metric LeBron is way ahead

 

[msgkings322]

I'll go line-by-line to refute sccordingly:

Offense: What is the object of the game? Exactly, to outSCORE your opponent. Who is more valuable to the team, the guy who Passes TO the Scorer "or" the guy who doesn't need anyone to pass to him because he's the undisputed best, most unstoppable Scorer? The answer should be obvious... it's the Scorer, and aside from Wilt there was no more dominating Scorer than Jordan (and when you include Playoff/Finals Scoring there is no player close to MJ).

"Career" points? Eh... that's longevity. That means you were an great Scorer for a long time... like Malone, Kobe, Jabbar, LeBron, etc. Fair enough.

Also... to say Jordan's Offense was "not" very versitile suggests (respectfully) that you really aren't familiar with his game. He was deadly from 18-20 feet in, including the most unstoppable/unguardable shot outside of Jabbar's Skyhook... that being, his turnaround fade from the post. 3-point shoting wasn't a part of the game when Mike played, so you can't hold that against him; however even with that Jordan shot just as good in the Playoffs (from deep) as LeBron does for their careers... and unless you're simply using "Assists" to measure Passing "ability", Jordan was a fantastic Passer as well; however going back to the first point I made... why "pass" to less talented Scorers when you're winning Championships by being the dominating Scorer?

Point here is that Jordan is absolutely in the GOAT Offense discussion, along with Wilt, Jabbar, LeBron and maybe a few others.

Defense: Really not sure what to say when your claim is that Jordan "might be" a Top 10 Defensive "Guard" except to (once again) believe that you really are not familiar with Jordan's game.. and to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Jordan "is" the GOAT is all these categories, just that he's in the discussion... and yes, with the awards "and" some of the records he set on the Defensive end alone, he's clearly in that discussion overall, and most certaintly among Guards.

Name me all the Guards in history who were more decorated, better perimeters defenders, better at playing the Passing lanes, and better on-ball defenders. "Maybe" Top 10 among Guards. That's just not an accurate statement.

Anyway,... LeBron isn't close to being in the GOAT Defense discussion overall "or" even at his position (Forward). Sure, he had a 4-5 year stretch in his career where he played D at that level, but 4-5 years does not put you on Jordan's level.

Winner: Only Russell has more Rings as a player you might say was the best guy on the team... and even that's debatable because Russ played alongside a boatload of other legit HOFERS. Hondo is undefeated in the Finals yes, but not all his Rings came with him as the best player on the team, or even the second best. Jordan? Without question he was the undisputed best/most valuable player on all 6 Championships... and his undefeated mark in the Finals is the cherry on the top.

This category is clearly between Jordan and Russell... LeBron is nowhere in the discussion... too many losses to Lower seeds (Jordan never lost to a lower seed) and too many losses in the Finals.

Awards/Accolades: I would argue Jordan IS the GOAT in this category when you consider he only played 13 seasons (where he qualified for said awards) and STILL has more overall MVP's than Jabbar or LeBron. He also has more more combined "First" Team All NBA and All Defense selections than those two... and we're talking GOAT here, so while 2nd/3rd team selections definitely do matter, they're not wining any argument over a guy with 19 "first" team selections in just 13 qualifying seasons. But again, we both agree that Jordan is in the GOAT discussion here.

Athleticism: Again, we agree Mike is the GOAT, or certainly in the discussion.

Clutch: There are some metrics used (I mentioned one in my previous post), but again it seems we both agree Jordan is (at least) in the discussion in this category as well.

Iconic: Again we both agree

Skills/Weaknesses: You overlooked this one... and it's important IMO. Jordan literally had no weakness/flaw to his game. The absolute "worst" part of his game was 3-point shooting; however even here he was "average" relative to the league at the time. Skills? do we need to even go-there? Suffice to say Jordan is also in the GOAT discussion in this area as well.

...and I would even add another category:

Peer Dominance: Aside from awards/accolades (already mentioned) no player in history has led the league in as many statistical categories (both raw and advanced stats) as Jordan. Wilt comes close (and was more dominating in the raw stat category during the Regular season) but he falls short in the Advanced metric department AND woefully short in both during the Playoffs.

So now... pick a player (any player) and see how he stacks up to Jordan in all these categories. You won't find one who is at least in the GOAT discussion in as many as Jordan.

LeBron (since this is a LeBron/MJ debate)? In category order, where LeBron is "at least" in the GOAT discussion:

Yes - Offense
No - Defense
No - Winner
Yes - Awards
No - Athleticism
Maybe - Clutch (he's had some very clutch performances BUT also many stinkers)
No - Iconic
No - Skills/Flaws/Weaknesses (he's not very "skilled" beyond Passing if we're being honest, and he has several flaws)
Maybe - Peer (yes on the advanced metrics side, no on raw)

Conclusion: LeBron is far behind Jordan.

About half of this long obsessed desperate post is total bullshit LOL

 

[MAGA2024]

In this particular metric LeBron is way ahead

By age, sure... that's because LeBron skipped College and has played 22 "full" seasons to Jordan's 13.

If we take PER from the 13 sesons in which Jordan qualified for league leadership he beats LeBron in 8 of those seasons... and Jordan owns the higher career PER.

 

[MAGA2024]

About half of this long obsessed desperate post is total bullshit LOL

I'm afraid YOU are full of bullshit unless you can refute what I wrote with facts/substance, instead of just an empty opinion.

 

[msgkings322]

By age, sure... that's because LeBron skipped College and has played 22 "full" seasons to Jordan's 13.

If we take PER from the 13 sesons in which Jordan qualified for league leadership he beats LeBron in 8 of those seasons... and Jordan owns the higher career PER.

Playing great for a lot more years counts towards overall greatness. In the past I’ve done this comparison (who hasn’t?) and it really comes down to better career vs better peak. I personally put MJ a little ahead. Where you are getting so much pushback is your ridiculous claim that there’s no comparison between them and that’s stupid

 

[msgkings322]

I'm afraid YOU are full of bullshit unless you can refute what I wrote with facts/substance, instead of just an empty opinion.

Don’t care that you’re wrong. I loved the part where you said LeBron didn’t have great athleticism though. Kills your credibility to be honest.

 

[rmilia1]

I'll go line-by-line to refute sccordingly:

Offense: What is the object of the game? Exactly, to outSCORE your opponent. Who is more valuable to the team, the guy who Passes TO the Scorer "or" the guy who doesn't need anyone to pass to him because he's the undisputed best, most unstoppable Scorer? The answer should be obvious... it's the Scorer, and aside from Wilt there was no more dominating Scorer than Jordan (and when you include Playoff/Finals Scoring there is no player close to MJ).

"Career" points? Eh... that's longevity. That means you were an great Scorer for a long time... like Malone, Kobe, Jabbar, LeBron, etc. Fair enough.

Also... to say Jordan's Offense was "not" very versitile suggests (respectfully) that you really aren't familiar with his game. He was deadly from 18-20 feet in, including the most unstoppable/unguardable shot outside of Jabbar's Skyhook... that being, his turnaround fade from the post. 3-point shoting wasn't a part of the game when Mike played, so you can't hold that against him; however even with that Jordan shot just as good in the Playoffs (from deep) as LeBron does for their careers... and unless you're simply using "Assists" to measure Passing "ability", Jordan was a fantastic Passer as well; however going back to the first point I made... why "pass" to less talented Scorers when you're winning Championships by being the dominating Scorer?

Point here is that Jordan is absolutely in the GOAT Offense discussion, along with Wilt, Jabbar, LeBron and maybe a few others.

Defense: Really not sure what to say when your claim is that Jordan "might be" a Top 10 Defensive "Guard" except to (once again) believe that you really are not familiar with Jordan's game.. and to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Jordan "is" the GOAT is all these categories, just that he's in the discussion... and yes, with the awards "and" some of the records he set on the Defensive end alone, he's clearly in that discussion overall, and most certaintly among Guards.

Name me all the Guards in history who were more decorated, better perimeters defenders, better at playing the Passing lanes, and better on-ball defenders. "Maybe" Top 10 among Guards. That's just not an accurate statement.

Anyway,... LeBron isn't close to being in the GOAT Defense discussion overall "or" even at his position (Forward). Sure, he had a 4-5 year stretch in his career where he played D at that level, but 4-5 years does not put you on Jordan's level.

Winner: Only Russell has more Rings as a player you might say was the best guy on the team... and even that's debatable because Russ played alongside a boatload of other legit HOFERS. Hondo is undefeated in the Finals yes, but not all his Rings came with him as the best player on the team, or even the second best. Jordan? Without question he was the undisputed best/most valuable player on all 6 Championships... and his undefeated mark in the Finals is the cherry on the top.

This category is clearly between Jordan and Russell... LeBron is nowhere in the discussion... too many losses to Lower seeds (Jordan never lost to a lower seed) and too many losses in the Finals.

Awards/Accolades: I would argue Jordan IS the GOAT in this category when you consider he only played 13 seasons (where he qualified for said awards) and STILL has more overall MVP's than Jabbar or LeBron. He also has more more combined "First" Team All NBA and All Defense selections than those two... and we're talking GOAT here, so while 2nd/3rd team selections definitely do matter, they're not wining any argument over a guy with 19 "first" team selections in just 13 qualifying seasons. But again, we both agree that Jordan is in the GOAT discussion here.

Athleticism: Again, we agree Mike is the GOAT, or certainly in the discussion.

Clutch: There are some metrics used (I mentioned one in my previous post), but again it seems we both agree Jordan is (at least) in the discussion in this category as well.

Iconic: Again we both agree

Skills/Weaknesses: You overlooked this one... and it's important IMO. Jordan literally had no weakness/flaw to his game. The absolute "worst" part of his game was 3-point shooting; however even here he was "average" relative to the league at the time. Skills? do we need to even go-there? Suffice to say Jordan is also in the GOAT discussion in this area as well.

...and I would even add another category:

Peer Dominance: Aside from awards/accolades (already mentioned) no player in history has led the league in as many statistical categories (both raw and advanced stats) as Jordan. Wilt comes close (and was more dominating in the raw stat category during the Regular season) but he falls short in the Advanced metric department AND woefully short in both during the Playoffs.

So now... pick a player (any player) and see how he stacks up to Jordan in all these categories. You won't find one who is at least in the GOAT discussion in as many as Jordan.

LeBron (since this is a LeBron/MJ debate)? In category order, where LeBron is "at least" in the GOAT discussion:

Yes - Offense
No - Defense
No - Winner
Yes - Awards
No - Athleticism
Maybe - Clutch (he's had some very clutch performances BUT also many stinkers)
No - Iconic
No - Skills/Flaws/Weaknesses (he's not very "skilled" beyond Passing if we're being honest, and he has several flaws)
Maybe - Peer (yes on the advanced metrics side, no on raw)

Conclusion: LeBron is far behind Jordan.

I don't have LeBron as the GOAT. He'd be 3rd for me behind Kareem 1 and MJ 2

The case for Kareem resume wise is the best. To argue anyone else you need to hey into opinion and whataboutism

I'll also add that playing great for a long time is 100% part of the GOAT debate. If you want to talk best prime ever that a different debate ( one in which id have Wilt 1st and Kareem 2nd with MJ 3rd but that's actually a closer debate than overall resume )

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Playing great for a lot more years counts towards overall greatness. In the past I’ve done this comparison (who hasn’t?) and it really comes down to better career vs better peak. I personally put MJ a little ahead. Where you are getting so much pushback is your ridiculous claim that there’s no comparison between them and that’s stupid

MJs PER is only 1 higher than Lebrons also. LeBron is a better facilitator and gives you more defensive flexibility, ended up a better 3 pt shooter also. MJs peak was a little better, more explosive in terms of scoring, better on ball defender to a degree.

As you said MJ being top dog is very fair, saying he is light years over LeBron is ridiculous.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

By age, sure... that's because LeBron skipped College and has played 22 "full" seasons to Jordan's 13.

If we take PER from the 13 sesons in which Jordan qualified for league leadership he beats LeBron in 8 of those seasons... and Jordan owns the higher career PER.

27.9 to 26.9 lol. Yea, not close at all lol.

 

[MAGA2024]

Playing great for a lot more years counts towards overall greatness. In the past I’ve done this comparison (who hasn’t?) and it really comes down to better career vs better peak. I personally put MJ a little ahead. Where you are getting so much pushback is your ridiculous claim that there’s no comparison between them and that’s stupid

LeBron has the Longevity edge on Jordan... and? So does Karl Malone, Jabbar, Kobe, etc. Why aren't we vehemently arguing GOAT status for all of them? Because there's a LOT more than just longevity to the GOAT equation... and as I detailed THOROUGHLY in this thread, LeBron isn't close to Jordan as a "total package".

If you disagree, refute what I wrote.

 

[msgkings322]

LeBron has the Longevity edge on Jordan... and? So does Karl Malone, Jabbar, Kobe, etc. Why aren't we vehemently arguing GOAT status for all of them? Because there's a LOT more than just longevity to the GOAT equation... and as I detailed THOROUGHLY in this thread, LeBron isn't close to Jordan as a "total package".

If you disagree, refute what I wrote.

Already told you I don’t care if you’re wrong lol

 

[MAGA2024]

Don’t care that you’re wrong. I loved the part where you said LeBron didn’t have great athleticism though. Kills your credibility to be honest.

"You're wrong because I said so."
Signed,
LeBron fans

LOLOLOL

...and I never said LeBron didn't have great athleticism (just about every player has to have great athleticism to make it to the profesion al level). I said LeBron doesn't have GOAT level athleticism... and he doesn't. He relies on power, strength and size much moreso than athleticism.

Fact.

 

[msgkings322]

"You're wrong because I said so."
Signed,
LeBron fans

LOLOLOL

...and I never said LeBron didn't have great athleticism (just about every player has to have great athleticism to make it to the profesion al level). I said LeBron doesn't have GOAT level athleticism... and he doesn't. He relies on power, astrength and size much moreso than athleticism.

Fact.

Adorable lol

 

[MAGA2024]

Already told you I don’t care if you’re wrong lol

"You're wrong because I said so."
Signed,
LeBron fans

Come on back "when" you have some facts/substance to back up your empty opinion.

 

[Wamu]

(1)Jordan was the best in my opinion. If he went team shopping like Hames dies he’d have won 10 championships

Why is it that only LeBron gets criticized for playing for multiple teams? It's no different than how he gets blamed for flopping yet flopping in the league goes back to the 1960's.

KD joined a team he couldn't beat that were the 2x defending WC champs with the 2x league MVP. Then he leaves a dynasty to team up with Harden & Kyrie. Gets the HC fired then demanded a trade.

AD quit on New Orleans. Jimmy Buckets quit on the Heat. Harden quit on the Rockets, Nets & 76ers. Kyrie quit on the Cavs, Celtics and Nets.

All players mentioned are HOFers. Odd you only gotta issue with one player though.

1. Has anyone said MJ isn't the GOAT? I haven't seen that yet.

I got MJ as the GOAT.