The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Albuquerque Rams]

He made a finals 5 years before MJ age wise and 3 nba seasons. Sorry this FACT troubles you.

Helps that he didn't face anyone good until the Finals. Sorry if that FACT troubles you.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You are the one playing IF games here. Again the FACTS are those Pistons teams from the 2000s accomplished more than any team Jordan beat from 93 on.

*YAWN* All of this is just a distraction from the FACT that LeBron, depsite playing way longer, is less accomplished and decorated than the guy he's most frequently compared to. All he has going for him is empty cumulative stats.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Helps that he didn't face anyone good until the Finals. Sorry if that FACT troubles you.

You thinking that is a fact shows how little you know about basketball. Go look up game 5 of the 2007 eastern conf finals and let me know how many points LeBron's teammates scored of the 18 in double OT.

The next year that "shitty" Pistons team won 59 games and once again lost to the team that won it all.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You thinking that is a fact shows how little you know about basketball. Go look up game 5 of the 2007 eastern conf finals and let me know how many points LeBron's teammates scored of the 18 in double OT.

The next year that "shitty" Pistons team won 59 games and once again lost to the team that won it all.

What they did the year after is irrelevant. The fact is THAT year, they would have only been good enough for the No. 4 seed. Both of these teams are second round exits in the West.

That Detroit team wasn't even better than the '89 Knicks, let alone the '89 Pistons.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

What they did the year after is irrelevant. The fact is THAT year, they would have only been good enough for the No. 4 seed. Both of these teams are second round exits in the West.

That Detroit team wasn't even better than the '89 Knicks, let alone the '89 Pistons.

You're a fucking clown. Tell us more how the 47 win 89 Bulls that needed a miracle to win round one are evidence of anything. Answer the question, how many points did Lebrons teammates score in OT in game 5 of the 2007 ECF ?

The consistent issue with MJ homers such as yourself is you constantly have to try and run down teams LeBron beat or things LeBron accomplished.

Notice how non MJ homers don't do this? MJ was amazing, can easily argue he was the GOAT. But when you have to say absolutely dumb shit like the 89 Knicks were better than the 07 Pistons to make a point, you are arguing 100 percent from emotion and hate and nothing else.

Giving LeBron his due takes nothing away from MJ. None of us ever bicker with @thunderc about this because he doesnt then try shitting all over LeBron to make his case.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

The next year that "shitty" Pistons team won 59 games and once again lost to the team that won it all.

And who did that team beat in the prior round? Cleveland.

So in other words, when LeBron actually faced someone worth a damn in the East - which wasn't very often - he didn't make the Finals.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

If MJs punk ass would come out and say "I think I'm better than LeBron, of course, but I don't like that we spend all this time running down current players to make that case" it would do a lot for the game. But he doesnt. Even though it would benefit HIM directly.

MJ is a fucking asshole. Likely got his dad killed. If nothing else LeBron is a better human being than MJ could ever hope to be.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

And who did that team beat in the prior round? Cleveland.

So in other words, when LeBron actually faced someone worth a damn in the East - which wasn't very often - he didn't make the Finals.

Answer the question I've asked you 3 times now.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

You're a fucking clown. Tell us more how the 47 win 89 Bulls that needed a miracle to win round one are evidence of anything. Answer the question, how many points did Lebrons teammates score in OT in game 5 of the 2007 ECF ?

The consistent issue with MJ homers such as yourself is you constantly have to try and run down teams LeBron beat or things LeBron accomplished.

Notice how non MJ homers don't do this? MJ was amazing, can easily argue he was the GOAT. But when you have to say absolutely dumb shit like the 89 Knicks were better than the 07 Pistons to make a point, you are arguing 100 percent from emotion and hate and nothing else.

Giving LeBron his due takes nothing away from MJ. None of us ever bicker with @thunderc about this because he doesnt then try shitting all over LeBron to make his case.

Pot meet kettle. All we're doing is retaliation against you guys for doing the same thing. When LeBron's finals losses started piling up like corpses at a concentration camp, his Stans had to resort to denigrating every aspect of Jordan's career. So we respond in kind. You brought this on yourselves. You guys made it acceptable for players to lose as long as they had nice stats and we simply aren't lowering our standard to that.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

Answer the question I've asked you 3 times now.

Your question is irrelevant.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Your question is irrelevant.

No it isn't. You said he had really good teammates so they should have scored at least half right? How many of those 18 did they put up?

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Pot meet kettle. All we're doing is retaliation against you guys for doing the same thing. When LeBron's finals losses started piling up like corpses at a concentration camp, his Stans had to resort to denigrating every aspect of Jordan's career. So we respond in kind. You brought this on yourselves. You guys made it acceptable for players to lose as long as they had nice stats and we simply aren't lowering our standard to that.

I literally just said MJ has a strong case to be GOAT lol. In fact almost all of us say this. I don't have to resort to make absolutely awful takes like the 89 Knicks are better than the 07 Pistons to put Lebrons name in the discussion. I honestly give zero fucks if someone says MJ is the GOAT if they can do it without all the extra bs of running down Lebron and today's era.

 

[Albuquerque Rams]

No it isn't. You said he had really good teammates so they should have scored at least half right? How many of those 18 did they put up?

No, the question is actually irrelevant. For several reasons

1. Game 5 was a major outlier. Aside from that one game, he averaged just 21 PPG on 39% shooting. Cleveland won the series anyway.

2. Boobie Gibson had 31 in the clincher, a game where Bron couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He also has 21 in their Game 4 win, another game in which Bron didn't exactly set the world on fire.

3. LeBron was outright trash in the first two games, but Detroit only won both of those games by three points.

Ultimately, these details undermine any claims that his teammates were "bums" and render your question irrelevant.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

No, the question is actually irrelevant. For several reasons

1. Game 5 was a major outlier. Aside from that one game, he averaged just 21 PPG on 39% shooting. Cleveland won the series anyway.

2. Boobie Gibson had 31 in the clincher, a game where Bron couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He also has 21 in their Game 4 win, another game in which Bron didn't exactly set the world on fire.

3. LeBron was outright trash in the first two games, but Detroit only won both of those games by three points.

Ultimately, these details undermine any claims that his teammates were "bums" and render your question irrelevant.

It must be painful to work this hard to hate on a guy lol. We saw what happened when LeBron was no longer on the Cavs, same holds true here, whether he shot well or not his presence made all the difference in the world. Those Pistons teams wore out opposing offenses. Game 5 tilted the series and that was all LeBron. Again, this is you not giving him any due because you perceive it a slight on your bf MJ. Take LeBron off the 07 Cavs they might win 28 games.

Notice how I can make that point without running down MJ? I don't need to slight the 96 Sonics to talk about LeBron being great.

 

[tlance]

Cop out excuse for people who have lost the argument.

No.

You cherry picked one stat that seems to support the BS agenda you want to push.

That isn’t how advanced stats work.

Helps that he didn't face anyone good until the Finals. Sorry if that FACT troubles you.

I think you may need to do some research and learn what a fact is.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

No.

You cherry picked one stat that seems to support the BS agenda you want to push.

That isn’t how advanced stats work.



I think you may need to do some research and learn what a fact is.

I love me a bad hot take now and then though. The 89 Knicks being better than the 07 Pistons is a fun one.

I really only get caught up in this MJ shit because it is sooooo bad for the league. Look no further than nearly 3 million salty, crusty white dudes watching a 35 point blowout WNBA game because they've somehow convinced themselves Caitlin is the new it deal.

Last night the Fever and Atlanta combined for 57 free throws but all we hear is they play "real ball"

Maybe an odd transition from MJ to shitting on the WNBA but the NBA has the absolute worst support system from former players imaginable. MJ being first and foremost despite being an owner.

Clearly people still like basketball, but they perceive the NBA a certain way, missed a heck of a game last night and it was light years better than anything Caitlin Clark has ever produced.

 

[MAGA2024]

Why are you using Pippen’s first 3 years?

The Bulls were very clearly not championship caliber until Pippen rose to all star level.

Neither won without a top supporting cast.

But LeBron came a lot closer.

You could argue LeBron got "closer" to a Championship (in 2007) by virtue of making it TO the Finals, however let's look at the competition he faced in the EC that year:

- Beat the lower seed 41-win Wiz (with the 28th ranked Defense) in the first-round
- Beat the lower seed 41-win Nets (15th ranked D) in the Semi's
- Beat the higher seed 53-win Pistons (#7 Defense) in the ECF

Now let’s look at the Bulls during Pippen's first 3 years in the league... and FTR I use his first 3 years because of the narrative that critics love to spew against Jordan (ie; he owes his success to Pippen because he didn't have a winning season or win a playoff series until Scottie arrived).

Well let's put that narrative to the test.

1987-88, Pippen's rookie season. Bulls win 50 games (MJ's first "winning" season) with Scottie averaging a whopping 8/4/2 on 46% in 21-min off the bench. Bulls beat Cavs in first-round (MJ's first playoff series win), before losing to the Bad Boys in the Semis. In the playoffs Jordan averaged 36/7/5 on 53%. Pippen? 10/5/2 on 47%

THANK GOD for Scottie, right?

1988-89, Pippen's second year. Bulls win 47-games with Pippen averaging 14/6/4 on 48% as the Bulls' second-best player on the team:

- First round: Beat the "higher" seed (57 win) Cavs. MJ: 40/6/8 on 52% vs. Cleveland's #2 Defense. Pippen? 15/9/4 on 40%
- Semi's: Beat the "higher"seed (52 win) Knicks. MJ: 36/10/8 on 55% vs. Knicks #10 Defense. Pippen? 15/7/5 on 58%
- ECF: Lost to eventual NBA Champion, 63-win Pistons. MJ: 30/6/7 on 46% vs. Pistons' #3 ranked Defense. Pippen? 10/7/3 on 40%

(NOTE: What's interesting about that Detroit series is the fact that the Bulls were the only team to win a Playoff game against the Pistons that year, and they beat the Bad Boys twice, losing in 6 games.)

Hence, I would argue that the Bulls (well, Jordan really) established themselves as a legit contender during these Playoffs, and at that point in his career Pippen was putting up "role-player" numbers (13/8/4 on 46% in the Playoffs)

But again, THANK GOD for Scottie saving Jordan!

By 1989-90 (Pip's 3rd season) the Bulls won 55 games and Scottie was beginning to come into his own, averaging 17/7/5 on 49% in the regular season, and putting up stellar performances in the first 2 rounds of the Playoffs. In the ECF, however, he struggled mightily against the thug Bad Boys, including an embarrassing 2/4/2 stat-line in 42-min of the infamous "migraine" game... a Game 7 with the defending Champion Pistons, who held the Bulls' Starters (not including MJ) to a dismal 10-43 from the field ("led" by Pip's 1-10 shooting) while Jordan dropped 31/8/9 on 48% against arguably the most physically punishing Defense in NBA history.

Once again, GREAT Scottie to Jordan’s rescue!!

LOL

Anyway, it’s clear the Bulls’ EC competition was vastly superior to what LeBron’s Cavs faced in 2007... which is why James got "closer" to a Championship. Plus this was a Cavs team that featured five (5!!!) players (not named LeBron) who had as many or more Win Shares than Scottie Pippen had in either of his first 3 years with the Bulls, challenging the notion that James was dragging tomato cans to the Finals while Pippen rescued Jordan and enabled him to finish above .500 and start winning playoff series’.

 

[MAGA2024]

I love the narrative that the 2014 Spurs were an "elite juggernaut" because LeBron couldn't beat them despite having three (3) future HOF teammates by his side YET the (2-time defending Champion) 91 Pistons were (allegedly) "old and washed up" because Jordan beat them with just one (1) HOF teammate.

Good stuff... lol

 

[MAGA2024]

Nope.

Those Spurs were better than any team Jordan ever beat.

And that isn’t even debatable

Based on what, the fact that they embarrassed LeBron/Cavs in the Finals?

Yes, it certainly IS (easily) debatable given the fact that the 07 Cavs were one of the weakest Finals representatives in NBA history.