The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[dtgold88]

Who is the last player to be the mvp, finals mvp, first team all D, first team offense, lead the league in scoring, all star mvp in the same season? To each their own but MJ was given goat status by majority of people out there. He didn’t have to insert himself like LeBron does

Glad you could help prove the point the MJ lovers often go with opinions that cannot really be proven like your last 2 comments here. First part of post at least factual, but only one season and hardly proves he's the GOAT.

But maybe he is.

 

[dtgold88]

I would be astonished if another person on this small board read that book from 33 years ago.

Whether or not I buy into the gambling deal doesn't change the fact that it is what it is...A conspiracy.

You're the one that brought up the gambling. You got responded to in kind. *shrugs*

Whether or not it's fair or not in your opinion or whoever else's, I have zero doubt that the OP has any real interest in this topic other than to stoke flames or, at best, push content on this site. Nobody would start an honest, unbiased conversation with the commentary I specifically responded to.

I read it....good book. Read Barkley's "Outrageous" as well.

You get the OP says he can make a case MJ is the GOAT, right? Only DIShonest, biased commentary are those who think this should not be a debate at all.

 

[dtgold88]

Jordan did that 4 times, guess how many other times it’s been done in nba history? Zero

MJ did what 4 times? be all NBA first team, Finals MVP, ASG MVP, etc?

I'll give you a chance to walk it back if that's what you meant before being caught in yet another lie.

 

[dtgold88]

The funny part is with LeBron, Kareem, MJ etc, none of them called themselves the goat, none of them had to hype themselves and be an arrogant prick like LeBron does. None of them cried and flopped anywhere close to anything like LeBron does. None of them needed “load management”. They wanted to play every minute. They had a killer mentality in them on the court. They were feared. Lebron is literally not scaring anyone cause they laugh at him and how he has tantrums so damn much, hence a big reason ratings are down. Game is soft and full of whining and flopping.

wow is that a lot of baseless opinions and lies in just one rant.

 

[dtgold88]

lol

Thanks for proving my point.

It's really not healthy for you to be stuck in the anger phase of your grief process for so long.

Ninjad again.

 

[dtgold88]

What wasn’t true?

It's nearly all baseless opinion. Little to no facts.

 

[dtgold88]

Short career and 4 times. It’s more impressive to do that in a short span let alone the only one to ever do it. Come on, man. Also my bad, not all star mvp, winning a championship. Idk why I put all star mvp.

MJ did not win AS MVP 4X. Caught in yet another lie, Tommy.

Not sure why you feel the need to lie to support your MJ infatuation. He's pretty good without lying.

 

[dtgold88]

Short career and 4 times. It’s more impressive to do that in a short span let alone the only one to ever do it. Come on, man. Also my bad, not all star mvp, winning a championship. Idk why I put all star mvp.

Now you are trying to complain you meant to use 4 for the number of titles for MJ when he really had 6.

I guess props you at least owned this lie. Baby steps.

 

[dtgold88]

Oh, and this has to be said. This is the team Lebron led to a 66-16 Record in 2008-09 with freaking Mike Brown as HC.

No.	Player	Pos	Ht	Wt	Birth Date	Birth	Exp	College
1	Daniel Gibson	PG	6-2	190	February 27, 1986	us US	2	Texas
21	J.J. Hickson	C	6-9	242	September 4, 1988	us US	R	NC State
11	Zydrunas Ilgauskas	C	7-3	238	June 5, 1975	lt LT	10
00	Darnell Jackson	PF	6-9	253	November 7, 1985	us US	R	Kansas
23	LeBron James	SF	6-9	250	December 30, 1984	us US	5
24	Trey Johnson	SG	6-5	218	August 30, 1984	us US	R	Alcorn State, Jackson State University
8	Tarence Kinsey	SG	6-6	185	March 21, 1984	us US	2	South Carolina
3	Sasha Pavlović	SF	6-8	220	November 15, 1983	me ME	5
32	Joe Smith	C	6-10	225	July 26, 1975	us US	13	Maryland
10	Wally Szczerbiak	SF	6-7	244	March 5, 1977	es ES	9	Miami University
17	Anderson Varejão	PF	6-11	273	September 28, 1982	br BR	4
4	Ben Wallace	PF	6-9	240	September 10, 1974	us US	12	Cuyahoga Community College, Virginia Union University
13	Delonte West	SG	6-4	180	July 26, 1983	us US	4	Saint Joseph's
31	Jawad Williams	SF	6-9	218	February 19, 1983	us US	R	UNC
2	Mo Williams	PG	6-1	198	December 19, 1982	us US	5	Alabama
55	Lorenzen Wright	C	6-11	225	November 4, 1975

Can argue that or leading the 2007 team to Finals is most incredible accomplishment.

Not sure why you'd dis Brown as he's a solid coach. Hell, he got a team that team which started some middling to bad defenders to play elite defense.

 

[Wamu]

The guy said he can easily make a case MJ the GOAT.

I have MJ as the GOAT.

But LeBron isn't as far behind as the haters would ever admit.

And like I've tried telling those haters before, but they don't wanna hear it, for any player to only be compared to MJ is a helluva compliment.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

"Stepped back" to remain in spotlight?

as you also noticed… the “Jordan was unable to dedicate himself because of the death of his dad” falls apart due to the fact that he went straight to playing baseball

 

[Jordan23]

Now you are trying to complain you meant to use 4 for the number of titles for MJ when he really had 6.

I guess props you at least owned this lie. Baby steps.

No 4 times he accomplished what I already stated. You got confused. I stated a fact about what he did 4 times in a season that nobody else has ever done

 

[Jordan23]

MJ did not win AS MVP 4X. Caught in yet another lie, Tommy.

Not sure why you feel the need to lie to support your MJ infatuation. He's pretty good without lying.

First off who the fuck is Tommy and 2nd, yet finish reading before making yourself look like a moron, do you see the correction I made in the post you literally just quoted, lol. Reading is hard huh, derp derp

 

[dtgold88]

First off who the fuck is Tommy and 2nd, yet finish reading before making yourself look like a moron, do you see the correction I made in the post you literally just quoted, lol. Reading is hard huh, derp derp

you lied and got caught Tommy - Flanagan from SNL (Jon Lovitz)

 

[Jordan23]

you lied and got caught Tommy - Flanagan from SNL (Jon Lovitz)

Think you need your head checked. You must not know what a lie is.

 

[dtgold88]

Think you need your head checked. You must not know what a lie is.

Oh, the irony if you think you haven't.

 

[MAGA2024]

1) Rookie Jordan inherited a 21-win team whose two (2) best players were cocaine-addicts. He led that team to an 11-win improvement (38 wins). The following year he missed 64 games; however in the 18 games he played the Bulls went 9-9 (vs. 21-43 in the games he missed). His 3rd year saw a completely overhauled Bulls roster with Charles freakin' Oakley as the second-best player on the team. He led the Bulls to a 40-42 season... and remember, this was when the EC was stacked; by far the tougher of the two Conferences vs. LeBron playing in the EC when it was at its all-time weakest. Context matters. Jordan improved the Bulls every season even though the supporting cast was dismal.

2) Jordan shot more than anyone because he was, by far and away, the greatest Scorer in the game (and the greatest non-Center Scorer in the history of the NBA). That's not a knock or a negative BECAUSE he averaged 52% from the field (on 23 FGA per game) during his early/pre-Championship years. He was extremely Efficient for the volume of shooting he did... and yeah, 3-point shooting wasn't a part of the game at the time so its a moot point bringing that up.

3) The Pistons were brutal to everyone, you're right; however during their 2 Championship seasons Jordan/Bulls played them tougher than any team in the playoffs by far. In fact the Bulls were the "only" team in the playoffs (both years) to beat Detroit more than one time... taking the Pistons to 6 and 7 games respectively (in 89 and 90), before sweeping them in 91. During their run the Pistons beat the Celtics in 88, swept them in 89, and swept the Lakers in 89... so essentially you could argue the Bulls were the second-best team in the NBA in 89 and 90. Again... how is this a negative ESPECIALLY when you consider those Pistons teams were stacked with 4-5 HOFERS.

4) There's no evidence to back this up... although the truth is Jordan (literally) SAVED Nike from going under, so let's not pretend Nike put Jordan on the map. It was literally the complete opposite: WithOut Jordan Nike isn't around today and some other brand is making billions off the Air Jordan brand.

5) Neither the Celtics, Pistons nor Lakers dominated "Jordan"... they dominated the "Bulls" because each one of those teams were stacked with 4-5-6 HOFERS on their rosters while Jordan didn't even have an All Star caliber player around him until his 6th year in the league. Win "or" lose Jordan was almost always the best player on the court no matter who he went up against. You simply canNot say the same for LeBron.

6) Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF when Pippen was averaging a mere 14/6/4 as the second-best player on the team. What did LeBron ever win withOut "at least" 2-3 other HOFERS around him?

7) Jordan was the most double-triple teammed player in the game... didn't matter who his SG peers were because he was by far and away the focal point of the opponents entire Defense... and yet he still dominated in record-breaking, unprecedented fashion.

8) The Bulls' first Finals opponent (in 91, not 90) featured three (3) HOFERS including Magic Johnson, who finished #2 in MVP voting (behind Jordan) and was only 31 years old at the time... hardly old. The Bulls, meanwhile, didn't even have an All Star player on their team (aside from Jordan). The 92 Blazers, 93 Suns, 96 Sonics and 97-98 Jazz may not have been as good as the Warriors BUT a) Jordan's EC opponents were MUCH tougher than LeBron's EC opponents, and B) Jordan's Bulls were the Warriors of that Era... so again, this is not a negative or a knock as I'd rather BE the juggernaut than "lose" to the juggernaut year after year (like LeBron... even though LeBron was playing on stacked teams himself).

9) The 94 Jordan-less Bulls played with a chip on their shoulder during the regular season because the entire NBA world figured they'd be a lottery team withOut the GOAT... that's a credit to Pippen of course, for playing the best ball of his career and inspiring the rest of the team; HOWEVER at the end of the day the lost in the second-round. Nice season, but hardly a juggernaut like they were with Jordan.

10) The 1995 series against the Magic is the "only" black eye on Jordan's resume. LeBron's resume is loaded with black eyes... in fact we just witnessed the most recent one: Losing in the first-round to a LOWER seed despite having a Top 3 player in the game by his side (Luka) and another 20-PPG Scorer (Reaves). Jordan "never" lost to a lower seed... LeBron has four (4) times.

11) Jordan wasn't perfect BUT he had more legendary/iconic/record-breaking performances in the Finals than any player in the history of the game.

12) Jordan deciding to retire (after the 98 season) should have absolutely no weigh when determining his GOAT status "on the court". The fact remains MJ accomplished more (in just 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls) than LeBron has accomplished in 22 seasons. That's all that matters.

 

[dtgold88]

1) Rookie Jordan inherited a 21-win team whose two (2) best players were cocaine-addicts. He led that team to an 11-win improvement (38 wins). The following year he missed 64 games; however in the 18 games he played the Bulls went 9-9 (vs. 21-43 in the games he missed). His 3rd year saw a completely overhauled Bulls roster with Charles freakin' Oakley as the second-best player on the team. He led the Bulls to a 40-42 season... and remember, this was when the EC was stacked; by far the tougher of the two Conferences vs. LeBron playing in the EC when it was at its all-time weakest. Context matters. Jordan improved the Bulls every season even though the supporting cast was dismal.

2) Jordan shot more than anyone because he was, by far and away, the greatest Scorer in the game (and the greatest non-Center Scorer in the history of the NBA). That's not a knock or a negative BECAUSE he averaged 52% from the field (on 23 FGA per game) during his early/pre-Championship years. He was extremely Efficient for the volume of shooting he did... and yeah, 3-point shooting wasn't a part of the game at the time so its a moot point bringing that up.

3) The Pistons were brutal to everyone, you're right; however during their 2 Championship seasons Jordan/Bulls played them tougher than any team in the playoffs by far. In fact the Bulls were the "only" team in the playoffs (both years) to beat Detroit more than one time... taking the Pistons to 6 and 7 games respectively (in 89 and 90), before sweeping them in 91. During their run the Pistons beat the Celtics in 88, swept them in 89, and swept the Lakers in 89... so essentially you could argue the Bulls were the second-best team in the NBA in 89 and 90. Again... how is this a negative ESPECIALLY when you consider those Pistons teams were stacked with 4-5 HOFERS.

4) There's no evidence to back this up... although the truth is Jordan (literally) SAVED Nike from going under, so let's not pretend Nike put Jordan on the map. It was literally the complete opposite: WithOut Jordan Nike isn't around today and some other brand is making billions off the Air Jordan brand.

5) Neither the Celtics, Pistons nor Lakers dominated "Jordan"... they dominated the "Bulls" because each one of those teams were stacked with 4-5-6 HOFERS on their rosters while Jordan didn't even have an All Star caliber player around him until his 6th year in the league. Win "or" lose Jordan was almost always the best player on the court no matter who he went up against. You simply canNot say the same for LeBron.

6) Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF when Pippen was averaging a mere 14/6/4 as the second-best player on the team. What did LeBron ever win withOut "at least" 2-3 other HOFERS around him?

7) Jordan was the most double-triple teammed player in the game... didn't matter who his SG peers were because he was by far and away the focal point of the opponents entire Defense... and yet he still dominated in record-breaking, unprecedented fashion.

8) The Bulls' first Finals opponent (in 91, not 90) featured three (3) HOFERS including Magic Johnson, who finished #2 in MVP voting (behind Jordan) and was only 31 years old at the time... hardly old. The Bulls, meanwhile, didn't even have an All Star player on their team (aside from Jordan). The 92 Blazers, 93 Suns, 96 Sonics and 97-98 Jazz may not have been as good as the Warriors BUT a) Jordan's EC opponents were MUCH tougher than LeBron's EC opponents, and B) Jordan's Bulls were the Warriors of that Era... so again, this is not a negative or a knock as I'd rather BE the juggernaut than "lose" to the juggernaut year after year (like LeBron... even though LeBron was playing on stacked teams himself).

9) The 94 Jordan-less Bulls played with a chip on their shoulder during the regular season because the entire NBA world figured they'd be a lottery team withOut the GOAT... that's a credit to Pippen of course, for playing the best ball of his career and inspiring the rest of the team; HOWEVER at the end of the day the lost in the second-round. Nice season, but hardly a juggernaut like they were with Jordan.

10) The 1995 series against the Magic is the "only" black eye on Jordan's resume. LeBron's resume is loaded with black eyes... in fact we just witnessed the most recent one: Losing in the first-round to a LOWER seed despite having a Top 3 player in the game by his side (Luka) and another 20-PPG Scorer (Reaves). Jordan "never" lost to a lower seed... LeBron has four (4) times.

11) Jordan wasn't perfect BUT he had more legendary/iconic/record-breaking performances in the Finals than any player in the history of the game.

12) Jordan deciding to retire (after the 98 season) should have absolutely no weigh when determining his GOAT status "on the court". The fact remains MJ accomplished more (in just 11 "full" seasons with the Bulls) than LeBron has accomplished in 22 seasons. That's all that matters.

Are you really ripping Lebron for playing really well in a series (but his #2 not so much) at age 40? How'd MJ do when he was at or close to that age in that weak Eastern conference?

And once again you try and gloss over MJ leaves team still wins 55 and makes EC semis. Most games MJ won with no Pippen to hold his hand? 42. And when Lebron leaves? Cavs go from title contender to toilet both time. Miami did not drop that far but did not cpme close to 55 and EC semis.

 

[MAGA2024]

Are you really ripping Lebron for playing really well in a series (but his #2 not so much) at age 40? How'd MJ do when he was at or close to that age in that weak Eastern conference?

And once again you try and gloss over MJ leaves team still wins 55 and makes EC semis. Most games MJ won with no Pippen to hold his hand? 42. And when Lebron leaves? Cavs go from title contender to toilet both time. Miami did not drop that far but did not cpme close to 55 and EC semis.

First off, the idea that Luka is the #2 guy on the Lakers is laughable... and FTR Luka averaged 30/7/6 on 45%/35%/89% in the series. Give Jordan (at ANY age) a teammate with that type of production and he'd never lose, let alone get bounced in the first-round in 5 games by a lower seed.

If this was a fluke it wouldn't be an issue... but it's not:

2009: Cavs were the #1 seed but lost to a lower seed
2010: Cavs were the #1 seed but lost to a lower seed
2011: Lost to a lower seed
2019: Failed to make Playoffs
2022: Failed to make Playoffs (with 4 HOF teammates by his side)
2024: Lost to a lower seed (in 5 games, with a Top 3 teammate by his side)

You won't find that consistent pattern of underachievement with Jordan... and no, pointing out how the Bulls' "core" of a 3-Peat team that won 55 games and made it to the second-round (without Jordan) doesn't hold much weight, especially considering the very next year the Bulls were barely a .500 team fighting to make the playoffs (until MJ returned).

As for LeBron's teams before/after he left... it wasn't "just" LeBron who impacted their decline. In Cleveland (circa 2011) the entire team was decimated with injuries, and when he left them the second time Kyrie was also gone, and Love was a mere shadow of his former self... similar to Miami (with Ray Allen gone and Chris Bosh's career essentially over due to blood clotting).

In 1994 the Bulls still had their 3-Peat Championship core intact (save for Jordan) "and" they added the best player in the world outside the NBA (Kukoc) "and" they also added Ron Harper (who averaged 20/6/5 the previous season with the Clippers).

Not exactly apples-to-apples.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

First off, thank you for the detailed reply. I enjoy these, and will try to do my best

1) Rookie Jordan inherited a 21-win team whose two (2) best players were cocaine-addicts. He led that team to an 11-win improvement (38 wins). The following year he missed 64 games; however in the 18 games he played the Bulls went 9-9 (vs. 21-43 in the games he missed). His 3rd year saw a completely overhauled Bulls roster with Charles freakin' Oakley as the second-best player on the team. He led the Bulls to a 40-42 season... and remember, this was when the EC was stacked; by far the tougher of the two Conferences vs. LeBron playing in the EC when it was at its all-time weakest. Context matters. Jordan improved the Bulls every season even though the supporting cast was dismal.

- You saw the stats, Lebron amounted for more wins his rookie year, with arguably the same or more serious team issues. Jordan certainly elevated the Bulls, and had his bad teammates, but so did Lebron. Darius Miles and Ricky Davis hated Lebron, and would talk down on him in the media all the time, and avoid giving him the ball.. and they weren't very good and had legal/drug issues.
- You say "Jordan improved the bulls every season".. well, so did Lebron. So that's not really a point. A factual statement is that Lebron improved the Cavs at a far faster rate than Jordan did. I don't think you can argue that MJ's early career was better than Lebron's, and MJ was able to play college as well, while Lebron came straight from high school (which makes it far more impressive).
- Meanwhile, speaking of supporting casts... Lebron's supporting cast was quite dismal as well. Do yourself a favor and go look at the team Lebron dragged to the NBA Finals. It may arguably be the most impressive feat in NBA history.. or the team Lebron dragged to 66 wins. MJ had some stinkers but didn't come close to dragging them to what Lebron did.

2) Jordan shot more than anyone because he was, by far and away, the greatest Scorer in the game (and the greatest non-Center Scorer in the history of the NBA). That's not a knock or a negative BECAUSE he averaged 52% from the field (on 23 FGA per game) during his early/pre-Championship years. He was extremely Efficient for the volume of shooting he did... and yeah, 3-point shooting wasn't a part of the game at the time so its a moot point bringing that up.

- The term "Volume scorer" is a thing because just because you score a lot doesn't mean it was good for your team. I don't know how old you are, but that was the knock on Mike. He was selfish, he only cared about scoring, and never saw a shot he didn't like. There have been many high scorers in the history of the NBA who at the same time didn't cause major success for their team while doing it, even though they not only scored but had semi-high FG%.
- Jordan was not "extremely efficient".
- The truth is, as great of a scorer as Jordan was, he shot the most too. If you're going to flaunt his points, you have to also bring up how many shots he took, and he lapped the field during his day.

3) The Pistons were brutal to everyone, you're right; however during their 2 Championship seasons Jordan/Bulls played them tougher than any team in the playoffs by far. In fact the Bulls were the "only" team in the playoffs (both years) to beat Detroit more than one time... taking the Pistons to 6 and 7 games respectively (in 89 and 90), before sweeping them in 91. During their run the Pistons beat the Celtics in 88, swept them in 89, and swept the Lakers in 89... so essentially you could argue the Bulls were the second-best team in the NBA in 89 and 90. Again... how is this a negative ESPECIALLY when you consider those Pistons teams were stacked with 4-5 HOFERS.

- I'm sorry, I don't want to be insulting, but this sounds so soft of a defense. They "only" lost 4-2 to Detroit? We're talking GOAT discussion here my man. There's no participation trophies. Come on, you ought to know better to bring that sort of weak rationalization in here.
- And furthermore, just because Chicago gave them the most trouble one series out of the year doesn't elevate them status-wise ahead of other teams. If the Bulls were that good, they'd have proved it during the season, and would have won the series. No more "Well they played really well in losing" talk.

4) There's no evidence to back this up... although the truth is Jordan (literally) SAVED Nike from going under, so let's not pretend Nike put Jordan on the map. It was literally the complete opposite: WithOut Jordan Nike isn't around today and some other brand is making billions off the Air Jordan brand.

There was a triad of the NBA, ESPN, and Nike that all elevated MJ as the single face of the NBA to a mythological status. I don't think you can argue that. That's literally why when Lebron came around they didn't just put all their chips on him.. they featured Kobe, Wade, and Carmelo as well.

5) Neither the Celtics, Pistons nor Lakers dominated "Jordan"... they dominated the "Bulls" because each one of those teams were stacked with 4-5-6 HOFERS on their rosters while Jordan didn't even have an All Star caliber player around him until his 6th year in the league. Win "or" lose Jordan was almost always the best player on the court no matter who he went up against. You simply canNot say the same for LeBron.

- If you're going to give "Jordan" credit for his wins, you have to give "Jordan" credit for his losses, not just pawn the losses off to "The Bulls". This points back to what I said earlier. Jordan couldn't take an average team far, when Lebron could. There's no shame in admitting this. You can rely on 90's Jordan for your argument, but I think it's clear early Lebron has a far greater resume than early MJ.
- You bring up Jordan not having an all-star caliber player until his 6th year in the league, it was the same with Lebron. His #2's were Mo Williams, or Zyndrunus Ilgauskus, or Drew Gooden.

6) Jordan took the Bulls to the ECF when Pippen was averaging a mere 14/6/4 as the second-best player on the team. What did LeBron ever win withOut "at least" 2-3 other HOFERS around him?

Lebron took a Cavs Team of Mo Williams, Sasha Pavolovic, Damon Jones, Eric Snow, Zyndrunas Ilgauskas, Ira Newble, Anderson Varajio, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, and Shannon Brown to the NBA Finals.
Stats of starters:
Lebron 27-7-6
Larry Hughes 14-3-3
Drew Gooden 11-8-1
Zyndrunus 12-7-2
Eric Snow 4-2-4

So just stop right there. You said "when did Lebron ever win without at least 2-3 HOFers around him"? There it is. Again, also look at the following 2 years when he took largely the same crew to 66 win and 60 win seasons.

7) Jordan was the most double-triple teammed player in the game... didn't matter who his SG peers were because he was by far and away the focal point of the opponents entire Defense... and yet he still dominated in record-breaking, unprecedented fashion.

My point remains. Jordan had the weakest opposition at his position in the NBA. When the Bulls played another team, Jordan was not required to be the one to stress on defense to guard Barkley, Malone, Ewing, etc. The Bulls would stick either Horace Grant, Pippen, or Dennis Rodman on the major players so MJ could focus on his offense (which is smart, but context matters)

8) The Bulls' first Finals opponent (in 91, not 90) featured three (3) HOFERS including Magic Johnson, who finished #2 in MVP voting (behind Jordan) and was only 31 years old at the time... hardly old.

I have to stop that right there. While Magic was still good, he was fading, and you can't use ages then as they are today. 31 back then was not a prime age, today's training has allowed 31 to be a prime age, many players now 20-30 years ahead can maintain elite play well into their mid-late 30's (Even 40's for Lebron). But to say "Magic was only 31" and not address the difference in eras is dishonest. Meanwhile, James Worthy was clearly on his last legs, and Kareem could barely walk. So you can technically say "3 HALL OF FAMERS"... you're not being honest as to the situation. I mean, there's a ton of examples of HOF players staying in the game for awhile past their prime. You don't get to say you beat them in their prime if you beat them when they are late in their career.

The Bulls, meanwhile, didn't even have an All Star player on their team (aside from Jordan). The 92 Blazers, 93 Suns, 96 Sonics and 97-98 Jazz may not have been as good as the Warriors

You left out the Spurs. Lebron had to deal with 2 all-time great dynasties. He beat them both. Jordan beat 0.

BUT a) Jordan's EC opponents were MUCH tougher than LeBron's EC opponents

Let's take a peek at that:

MJ's most common Eastern Conference Foes during his peak were
- Ewing Knicks (Starks, Oakley, Mason, etc.)
- Reggie Pacers (Reggie, Davis Bros, Mark Jackson, Rik Smits)
- Price/Nance/Daughrty Cavs
- Shaq/Penny Magic
- Hardaway/Mourning Heat.

Lebron's most common Eastern Conference Foes during his peak were
- Rasheed/Ben/Chancy/Tayshon Pistons
- Jason Kidd, Vince Carter Nets
- Garnett, Pierce, Allen Celtics
- Derrick Rose Bulls
- Paul Geroge/Granger/Bynum/West Pacers
- DeRosan/Lowry Raptors

If you compare the 2 lists. Lebron's teams went through 2 NBA champion squads, MJ went through 0. I'm not sure you can say that. Yes, MJ faced the 80's Celtics and Pistons in the playoffs in his early years... we talked about this. There's admittely an impossible dynamic to truly equate who faced what competition at a better time. If you want me to throw out an olive branch, it would be that yes, MJ was thrown to the fire against early more dominant teams in his playoffs years than Lebron, while Lebron led his team to greater success than Jordan did overall.

To review my deeper convictions... I've addressed this discussion because it's always fun to do with honest debaters, but just know that from my perspective a true comparison of GOAT status between generations is generally impossible, and I'm fine with determining who is the greatest of each "generation". However, I will dabble into the GOAT discussion because I can't help myself.

As for your next multiple points, I'll get to those, but not tonight. I enjoy the thought/consideration, and if you want to reply to what I've said thus far, feel free. I promise to reply to your other points soon.

Have a good one.