Ted Ginn resigned

[Southern9er]

Great news!

Now can we trade Crabtree? Last year I felt Williams had the best hands on the team and among the WRs the most dangerous after catching the ball. I really hope he breaks out this year.

 

[BINGO]

Those are the kinds of plays where Ginn is valuable, but there are others. Did you see how far the DB was off him on a slant (think it was a slant) in the playoff game against the Saints where he got the first down?

He's a good weapon to have, IMO, but Kyle hasn't proven anything to me yet (except that he's a good route runner & shouldn't be allowed within 500 yards of a punt).

I agree with EVERYTHING you have said, especially the bold part. There isn't one corner in the NFL who in their right mind would want to press Ginn. Not even Revis, if he had a QB to suit his skills as a deep threat, he'd be potent talent to have in your offense. I was afraid that he was going to end up in Detroit. Detroit make the mistake of their life by not signing Ginn to a cheap a$$ contract. He has become a pretty good route runner too, so he can beat you on the underneath stuff. Of course he would be do to drop 3 of 7 passes thrown to him, but heh...that's why he's not "elite". If he ended up in Detroit, New Orleans, or even Carolina...man would he have flourished.

Like Sick pointed out, there was a reason why DBs give him a lot of cushion. He can eat you up in slants, comeback routes, post, or go routes. The man basically is close to mastering the entire tree routes. But his success is contingent to the type of QB he plays with. And for that, he's not a # 1 receiver in the leauge. Ever since he has entered the league, he has never played alongside with a great QB.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

I agree with EVERYTHING you have said, especially the bold part. There isn't one corner in the NFL who in their right mind would want to press Ginn. Not even Revis, if he had a QB to suit his skills as a deep threat, he'd be potent talent to have in your offense. I was afraid that he was going to end up in Detroit. Detroit make the mistake of their life by not signing Ginn to a cheap a$$ contract. He has become a pretty good route runner too, so he can beat you on the underneath stuff. Of course he would be do to drop 3 of 7 passes thrown to him, but heh...that's why he's not "elite". If he ended up in Detroit, New Orleans, or even Carolina...man would he have flourished.

Like Sick pointed out, there was a reason why DBs give him a lot of cushion. He can eat you up in slants, comeback routes, post, or go routes. The man basically is close to mastering the entire tree routes. But his success is contingent to the type of QB he plays with. And for that, he's not a # 1 receiver in the leauge. Ever since he has entered the league, he has never played alongside with a great QB.

Sure he hasn't played with a great QB but then can't we say the same for Crabtree?? I just feel like if Ginn gets so much cushion and he can eat all these guys up with those routes...why hasn't he done it?? If he can catch the ball I agree that he can be dangerous, but first things first.

 

[deep9er]

like Ginn because he's a dangerous returner, he also took care of the ball while making his returns. [said this before KW's famous game]

but as a receiver, he won't get many opportunities and quite frankly.....shouldn't. Moss is now the primary deep threat, along with Manningham. i'd have more confidence these two will catch the long balls.

then of course we use Vernon Davis more on 'sprint' routes.

where's the 'slot' receiver? where's the guy who's good in shorter space? are we going to tweak our offense so its more (not only) RB's in short space?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

A few thoughts on the discussions here:

As for re-signing Ginn, I'm fairly lukewarm on it. I like him as a returner, but I think he's of very little use as a receiver. We've seen some people defend him, most notably MW49ers5, who apparently believes Ginn was the best receiver in every appreciable category except size (but he's still the toughest), but I just don't see it. Even to be an effective decoy, a WR needs to make plays. Two years into his Niners career, and he hasn't done it. He may get the cushion to be effective on slants and other quick passes, but he's so rarely used on those. He's probably our worst blocking WR. And even as a deep threat he's 50/50 to catch a well-thrown ball, much less make adjustments to tough balls. He has blazing speed, but he rounds his cuts and isn't precise in the short area. I'm particularly amazed that people who criticize Crabtree would defend Ginn.

As for Williams, I still think he's a really interesting guy. I'm not entirely comfortable using him as a return man at this point, but Ginn had a problem with fumbling early in his career, too (10 fumbles in his first two seasons, seven returning punts at which point he was basically removed as a PR in Miami). And Williams has had some nice returns, including two that led to points against the Giants. The fumble and muff were inexcusable, but not a reason to cut a guy.

As a receiver, I think Williams is interesting. He's got very good straight-line speed, running his 40 in 4.4 (4.34 at his pro day). It's not elite, but it's quite good, comparing favorably with Eddie Royal and Percy Harvin, who are the two slot-type guys Sick mentioned. He's not a Moss/Wallace/Knox outside deep threat (not saying that's all these guys are, but that's how they started), but he's certainly fast enough.

It's Williams' quickness that is more impressive to me, though. He's very explosive in and out of his breaks. He's also shown nice, soft hands, though he did have one or two drops in limited action this season. He's a young, developing player, but he brings quickness that we don't otherwise have at the spot. I'd like to see what he can do given a more sustained look.

Oh, and saying Williams didn't do much as "basically a starter" is pretty rich when comparing him to Ginn, who was "basically a starter" until he got injured and yet did less than Williams.

 

[NinerSickness]

Oh, and saying Williams didn't do much as "basically a starter" is pretty rich when comparing him to Ginn, who was "basically a starter" until he got injured and yet did less than Williams.

I liked everything you said except this. You're implying that I think Ginn is a good WR. He's not a good WR. I think he's a good specialty player. That's all. He's good in certain packages and on special teams.

I agree that Williams COULD develop into a good WR, but I don't agree that he's yet to show anything to make me believe he will.

 

[deep9er]

A few thoughts on the discussions here:

As for re-signing Ginn, I'm fairly lukewarm on it. I like him as a returner, but I think he's of very little use as a receiver. We've seen some people defend him, most notably MW49ers5, who apparently believes Ginn was the best receiver in every appreciable category except size (but he's still the toughest), but I just don't see it. Even to be an effective decoy, a WR needs to make plays. Two years into his Niners career, and he hasn't done it. He may get the cushion to be effective on slants and other quick passes, but he's so rarely used on those. He's probably our worst blocking WR. And even as a deep threat he's 50/50 to catch a well-thrown ball, much less make adjustments to tough balls. He has blazing speed, but he rounds his cuts and isn't precise in the short area. I'm particularly amazed that people who criticize Crabtree would defend Ginn.

As for Williams, I still think he's a really interesting guy. I'm not entirely comfortable using him as a return man at this point, but Ginn had a problem with fumbling early in his career, too (10 fumbles in his first two seasons, seven returning punts at which point he was basically removed as a PR in Miami). And Williams has had some nice returns, including two that led to points against the Giants. The fumble and muff were inexcusable, but not a reason to cut a guy.

As a receiver, I think Williams is interesting. He's got very good straight-line speed, running his 40 in 4.4 (4.34 at his pro day). It's not elite, but it's quite good, comparing favorably with Eddie Royal and Percy Harvin, who are the two slot-type guys Sick mentioned. He's not a Moss/Wallace/Knox outside deep threat (not saying that's all these guys are, but that's how they started), but he's certainly fast enough.

It's Williams' quickness that is more impressive to me, though. He's very explosive in and out of his breaks. He's also shown nice, soft hands, though he did have one or two drops in limited action this season. He's a young, developing player, but he brings quickness that we don't otherwise have at the spot. I'd like to see what he can do given a more sustained look.

Oh, and saying Williams didn't do much as "basically a starter" is pretty rich when comparing him to Ginn, who was "basically a starter" until he got injured and yet did less than Williams.

when he was drafted, it looked to me he was that "slot" receiver type. but don't think he's been used that way.......so far? we'll see how it goes this season, whether we add someone for that role, or try KW at it?

btw -can we afford a roster spot for 'just' a returner in Ginn? IF we consider him a receiver too, that makes Moss, Crabtree, Manningham, KW, and Ginn. thats five and we typically keep five WR's.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

A few thoughts on the discussions here:

As for re-signing Ginn, I'm fairly lukewarm on it. I like him as a returner, but I think he's of very little use as a receiver. We've seen some people defend him, most notably MW49ers5, who apparently believes Ginn was the best receiver in every appreciable category except size (but he's still the toughest), but I just don't see it. Even to be an effective decoy, a WR needs to make plays. Two years into his Niners career, and he hasn't done it. He may get the cushion to be effective on slants and other quick passes, but he's so rarely used on those. He's probably our worst blocking WR. And even as a deep threat he's 50/50 to catch a well-thrown ball, much less make adjustments to tough balls. He has blazing speed, but he rounds his cuts and isn't precise in the short area. I'm particularly amazed that people who criticize Crabtree would defend Ginn.

As for Williams, I still think he's a really interesting guy. I'm not entirely comfortable using him as a return man at this point, but Ginn had a problem with fumbling early in his career, too (10 fumbles in his first two seasons, seven returning punts at which point he was basically removed as a PR in Miami). And Williams has had some nice returns, including two that led to points against the Giants. The fumble and muff were inexcusable, but not a reason to cut a guy.

As a receiver, I think Williams is interesting. He's got very good straight-line speed, running his 40 in 4.4 (4.34 at his pro day). It's not elite, but it's quite good, comparing favorably with Eddie Royal and Percy Harvin, who are the two slot-type guys Sick mentioned. He's not a Moss/Wallace/Knox outside deep threat (not saying that's all these guys are, but that's how they started), but he's certainly fast enough.

It's Williams' quickness that is more impressive to me, though. He's very explosive in and out of his breaks. He's also shown nice, soft hands, though he did have one or two drops in limited action this season. He's a young, developing player, but he brings quickness that we don't otherwise have at the spot. I'd like to see what he can do given a more sustained look.

Oh, and saying Williams didn't do much as "basically a starter" is pretty rich when comparing him to Ginn, who was "basically a starter" until he got injured and yet did less than Williams.

Well put Crimson.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I liked everything you said except this. You're implying that I think Ginn is a good WR. He's not a good WR. I think he's a good specialty player. That's all. He's good in certain packages and on special teams.

I agree that Williams COULD develop into a good WR, but I don't agree that he's yet to show anything to make me believe he will.

That's fair. I just think Ginn's inconsistencies as a receiver hurt him even as a specialty receiver (obviously he's still valuable as a returner).

 

[Crimsoncrew]

when he was drafted, it looked to me he was that "slot" receiver type. but don't think he's been used that way.......so far? we'll see how it goes this season, whether we add someone for that role, or try KW at it?

btw -can we afford a roster spot for 'just' a returner in Ginn? IF we consider him a receiver too, that makes Moss, Crabtree, Manningham, KW, and Ginn. thats five and we typically keep five WR's.

I'm fairly sure Williams did get quite a bit of action from the slot. With better outside options, he would presumably get more looks there.

As for Ginn, he brings some other things to the table, but I think he's a 4th or even 5th receiver ideally. But I think there's a pretty good chance we keep six guys this year given the relative lack of talent at the position (even with the additions, we lack top-end talent) and the injuries we endured last year. I expect one or two draft picks, one probably in the first three or four rounds.

 

[deep9er]

I'm fairly sure Williams did get quite a bit of action from the slot. With better outside options, he would presumably get more looks there.

As for Ginn, he brings some other things to the table, but I think he's a 4th or even 5th receiver ideally. But I think there's a pretty good chance we keep six guys this year given the relative lack of talent at the position (even with the additions, we lack top-end talent) and the injuries we endured last year. I expect one or two draft picks, one probably in the first three or four rounds.

i could see us keeping six counting Ginn as one, so that MAY leave one spot for a draft pick. but if i had to bet on it now, don't see us drafting two.

if we do fine, but that more than likely puts the second guy on the PS. does this make sense? i guess it would if this second guy competes against KW and Ginn for two spots?

 

[maniax]

I was just thinking that the only reason Ginn might be back, is because of KW's fumbles in the NFC championship game. If KW does not fumble, regardless of win or lose, Ginn is probably not back.

I think KW and Ginn will probably both make the team. KW as a receiver, Ginn solely as a return specialist.

Ginn might be unseated by Cox as the return guy and the Ginn gets cut. It's possible. I'm sure in preseason they will be trying out Cox and KW and others as return guys. Ginn is going to have to make the team by being the best return guy in preseason.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

i could see us keeping six counting Ginn as one, so that MAY leave one spot for a draft pick. but if i had to bet on it now, don't see us drafting two.

if we do fine, but that more than likely puts the second guy on the PS. does this make sense? i guess it would if this second guy competes against KW and Ginn for two spots?

I've got no problem putting a later-round WR on the PS. Moss is very old. Ginn is limited as a receiver. Crabtree may not be worth his contract in the next few years. As deep as our team is right now, it's somewhat unrealistic to expect six or seven draft picks to make the active roster every year.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Ugh. Ginn is pretty much taking a roster spot up at wideout. Perrish Cox or Kyle Williams or a draft pick will suffice returning the ball while actually contributing to the team outside of special teams.

 

[dredinis21]

Ugh. Ginn is pretty much taking a roster spot up at wideout. Perrish Cox or Kyle Williams or a draft pick will suffice returning the ball while actually contributing to the team outside of special teams.

If we draft a WR and he seems to light it up in preseason, I am guessing that the Niners, if pressed to cut someone, would cut Ginn vs. Williams based on the management's propensity to keep guys that contribute to more then just ST. If we just wanted ST specialists, we would have kept Constanzo. But I agree with the assessment of keeping Ginn if you can. Williams has not shown the ability to make good decisions in PR and Cox hasn't PLAYED in a year, let alone field punts and kickoffs, so the overriding fear of regressing in our potent ST game is probably what drove the decision to re-sign.

 

[deep9er]

for all we know Randy Moss is the one who gets cut? anyways, guess the receivers have to do what everyone else does.......compete.

they have to compete at WR and some at returning.

 

[numone9er]

Ugh. Ginn is pretty much taking a roster spot up at wideout. Perrish Cox or Kyle Williams or a draft pick will suffice returning the ball while actually contributing to the team outside of special teams.

Yeah, that's pretty much how i feel about it as well. He isn't able to contribute much in the passing game. I'd be more comfortable with a draft pick who can return and get a chance to show what he can do.

I think there is a good chance we may end up keeping 6 WR's on the roster depending on how the draft turns out.

 

[tallglassofwater007]

If we draft a WR and he seems to light it up in preseason, I am guessing that the Niners, if pressed to cut someone, would cut Ginn vs. Williams based on the management's propensity to keep guys that contribute to more then just ST. If we just wanted ST specialists, we would have kept Constanzo. But I agree with the assessment of keeping Ginn if you can. Williams has not shown the ability to make good decisions in PR and Cox hasn't PLAYED in a year, let alone field punts and kickoffs, so the overriding fear of regressing in our potent ST game is probably what drove the decision to re-sign.

The bold isn't true. In the Giants game the ball that hit his leg was for sure 100% on him. Other than that, what poor decisions has he made returning punts?? The second fumble wasn't a bad decision, the guy had a seem and was going for it. The poor decision was on the coaching staff for not having him fair catch any other punt that went his way.

People are basing too much off of a shitty game. It was the biggest game in the franchises history, the last 15 or so years, but still one game. I get it that people no longer like him, but I don't think you are losing that much with him returning kicks. He looked good during the regular season back there.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

The bold isn't true. In the Giants game the ball that hit his leg was for sure 100% on him. Other than that, what poor decisions has he made returning punts?? The second fumble wasn't a bad decision, the guy had a seem and was going for it. The poor decision was on the coaching staff for not having him fair catch any other punt that went his way.

People are basing too much off of a shitty game. It was the biggest game in the franchises history, the last 15 or so years, but still one game. I get it that people no longer like him, but I don't think you are losing that much with him returning kicks. He looked good during the regular season back there.

Against the Giants, he dove for one punt that he barely brought in. And against the Saints he picked one up off the bounce going full speed that was VERY dicey. I think he's shown some great burst and instincts in the return game, but I would agree that his decision-making has been extremely suspect.

 

[clyde_carbon]

Against the Giants, he dove for one punt that he barely brought in. And against the Saints he picked one up off the bounce going full speed that was VERY dicey. I think he's shown some great burst and instincts in the return game, but I would agree that his decision-making has been extremely suspect.

Those things should improve with time, though. I'm assuming Ginn was taking most practice reps for the returns anyways. If KW takes them he should be much better from a decision standpoint.