Suh's new contract??????

[Old Lion]

Austin is the reason that this is the number 1 defense in the league. Not Suh. Suh was been on this team a few years when the D was barely average or worse. The scheme works. DT is not a huge part of what makes it work. I think we could plug in any decent player and get the same results. Love to keep Suh, but if he is intent on breaking the bank then I don't want it to be here.


I am sure if the coaches feel he is the reason they will overpay, if not then they will not.


In Austin we trust.

 

[Old Lion]

Fire Mayhew, and Suh might decide to stay.

I hope they give all of Suh's money to Mayhew just to irritate the shit out of most of you who do not contribute anything meaningful to the discussions.

Fire Mayhew in every post is wasting space on here. It is not going to happen this year at least so no sense polluting every thread with it.

 

[TwoCents22]

Austin is the reason that this is the number 1 defense in the league. Not Suh. Suh was been on this team a few years when the D was barely average or worse. The scheme works. DT is not a huge part of what makes it work. I think we could plug in any decent player and get the same results. Love to keep Suh, but if he is intent on breaking the bank then I don't want it to be here.


I am sure if the coaches feel he is the reason they will overpay, if not then they will not.


In Austin we trust.

I definitely won't disagree with you on Austin. But, again, let's look at what impact Suh has had on this team. His first year, with those same incompetent coaches who had this team coming off last place performances in yards and points allowed, we jumped up to middle of the pack. That can not be undermined.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

But, again, let's look at what impact Suh has had on this team. His first year, with those same incompetent coaches who had this team coming off last place performances in yards and points allowed, we jumped up to middle of the pack. That can not be undermined.

He was on a team that was one year removed from 0-16 and they had to basically clean house and start over. If you add a player of Suh's caliber, of course the stats will improve. If he were making the players around him that much better though -- wouldn't we have seen an improvement each year as more talent is added to the defense, which was basically baron before he arrived.

In his 2nd year -- we were in the 20's in total defense and ppg (24). In his third year, the total defense was 13th, but we actually gave up over 27 ppg.

Our rush defense didn't see a jump until Levy came out of nowhere and started playing like all-pro LB and the Lions drafted Ansah and Taylor, who were light years better against the run than the two pass rushing specialists we had before (avril and kvb). Prior to the addition of those two and Levy's elevation in his play -- teams would run directly at Suh.

I do think Suh is the leader of the defense and he makes life easier on others. Detroit would be vastly overpaying him if they go anywhere near 17 million. Unless Suh is going to play like Warren Sapp in 2000 for the duration of the contract -- no DT should be the highest paid defensive player. If Detroit's DL was built with late round picks surrounded by Suh and they were putting up the numbers they are -- I'd say maybe. Detroit's DL is really good because they have spent numerous draft picks building that line.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Not being a fan of the Lions but I do live in the area and support the team some what, I think that giving him any kind of a big contract is not too smart. He is dead money waiting to happen because of off field issues and it will set back many of the other things the lions can do with that kind of cash.

Just MHO. Let him go to the redskinz and let them over pay for him, because you know they will.

I think this is exactly the kind of thing 2cents was talking about with the whole media altering people's perceptions thing.

What off the field issues have been a problem for Suh that would lead you to feel this way?

 

[TwoCents22]

If you add a player of Suh's caliber, of course the stats will improve. If he were making the players around him that much better though -- wouldn't we have seen an improvement each year as more talent is added to the defense, which was basically baron before he arrived.

In his 2nd year -- we were in the 20's in total defense and ppg (24). In his third year, the total defense was 13th, but we actually gave up over 27 ppg.

Our rush defense didn't see a jump until Levy came out of nowhere and started playing like all-pro LB and the Lions drafted Ansah and Taylor, who were light years better against the run than the two pass rushing specialists we had before (avril and kvb). Prior to the addition of those two and Levy's elevation in his play -- teams would run directly at Suh.

I do think Suh is the leader of the defense and he makes life easier on others. Detroit would be vastly overpaying him if they go anywhere near 17 million. Unless Suh is going to play like Warren Sapp in 2000 for the duration of the contract -- no DT should be the highest paid defensive player. If Detroit's DL was built with late round picks surrounded by Suh and they were putting up the numbers they are -- I'd say maybe.

I don't see how its even a question whether or not he makes the guys around him better. Ever since he's been here we've been in conversation of teams with the best Dline. That was even with KVB, Corey Williams, and Cliff Avril as the starters. Even undrafted guys and lesser known free agent pickups have been looking decent. Is Mayhew just a superior D-line talent evaluator? If Suh is gone after this year, let's pray that's the case.

 

[TwoCents22]

Also, TrustMe, why are your arguments so reliant on unrealistic comparisons? Ebron was a bad pick because he's not Graham or Gronk? Suh doesn't make his teammates better because he's not Sapp? I don't get it.

 

[Godstree]

I think this is exactly the kind of thing 2cents was talking about with the whole media altering people's perceptions thing.

What off the field issues have been a problem for Suh that would lead you to feel this way?

The things I know are not in the media and I wish not to go into it. The media does not know some hush hush stuff and I can't go into it as the person who told me could loose his job (and I do trust him as a sorce). But something I do know is, he an asshole and I have witnessed that first hand.

I am not sure the media has "altered" peoples perception of him. He is a hometown hero for Detroit so I understand how people on here would like the guy more than they really should. Afterall I am a Cowboy fan and I want to believe that the recent dust up at Dillards in Frisco is a misunderstanding.

 

[gandydancer]

Also, TrustMe, why are your arguments so reliant on unrealistic comparisons? Ebron was a bad pick because he's not Graham or Gronk? Suh doesn't make his teammates better because he's not Sapp? I don't get it.

I will ask if you look at other stout defenses at least by stats. Do they have a Suh? Jets Sheldon Richardson is helluva ball player. Suh he is not. Look at Bills and Browns. Teams have a damn good front fours just not
Suh caliber of players. IMO this is what I see Meow talking about. Adding talent that meshes as a unit to make each other better. Who added to this unit from last year? George Johnson and healthy JJ. Suh did not elevate this defense to number #1. The one added that may be the difference maker is Austin.

I will hate seeing Suh in any other colors. For 17 million a year will be glad it is not Lions. Austin is proving his scheme makes all players look better.

 

[TwoCents22]

I will ask if you look at other stout defenses at least by stats. Do they have a Suh? Jets Sheldon Richardson is helluva ball player. Suh he is not. Look at Bills and Browns. Teams have a damn good front fours just not
Suh caliber of players. IMO this is what I see Meow talking about. Adding talent that meshes as a unit to make each other better. Who added to this unit from last year? George Johnson and healthy JJ. Suh did not elevate this defense to number #1. The one added that may be the difference maker is Austin.

I will hate seeing Suh in any other colors. For 17 million a year will be glad it is not Lions. Austin is proving his scheme makes all players look better.

True. You could ask that question about a lot of elite players, though. We don't have a Richard Sherman. Doesn't diminish his value on that Seahawks team, in that system.

Im basically trying to counter the notion that "we can't afford to overpay". If you look at salary, we should be an offensive juggernaut. QB, 2 WRs, and 2 RBs at what, Like $52 million? At least on defense we have the production to match. Going from Suh to a marginal player with a value contract, IMO, will be worse for the team.

If Suh doesn't want to be here, we can't stop him. But honestly, I wouldn't be upset if we made him the highest paid player.

 

[tpaulus_2]

The things I know are not in the media and I wish not to go into it. The media does not know some hush hush stuff and I can't go into it as the person who told me could loose his job (and I do trust him as a sorce). But something I do know is, he an asshole and I have witnessed that first hand.

I am not sure the media has "altered" peoples perception of him. He is a hometown hero for Detroit so I understand how people on here would like the guy more than they really should. Afterall I am a Cowboy fan and I want to believe that the recent dust up at Dillards in Frisco is a misunderstanding.

Naturally. I forget sometimes that random 'SportsHoopla posters have the inside scoop on NFL superstars via their own, personal, super-secret sources... My bad.

 

[lionstop1]

Im still not willing to invest that type of money in a DT, especially when there's more value in replacing him than to spend all those resources on him. I like the odds of addition by subtraction in this case. Take the cap space and draft picks and make it happen.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Also, TrustMe, why are your arguments so reliant on unrealistic comparisons? Ebron was a bad pick because he's not Graham or Gronk? Suh doesn't make his teammates better because he's not Sapp? I don't get it.

Maybe my post came off the wrong way. Suh makes players around him better because he takes on double teams. That being said -- the defensive line didn't go to the next level until Levy's game did and we spent the #5 pick in the draft on Ansah. We paired Suh up with the #13 pick in the draft in Fairley.

All I'm saying is -- it isn't like the Lions defensive line is filled with cast offs or mid to late round picks and Suh is taking their games to the next level. When your starting 4 has 3 guys drafted #2, #5 and #13 overall in the draft -- You are surrounded by talent. Add in a nice pick of Taylor, a couple nice finds in FA -- and you get what you are seeing.

I actually think the biggest difference in our defense is Levy. He came out of nowhere to set a career high in tackles, had more passes defensed last year than he had his 1st 4 years combined, same as interceptions. I have no idea why his game jumped like that, but I'm happy it did.

As far as comparisons -- you talked about paying a DT 5 million dollars more a year than any other DT in the NFL and more than JJ Watt just signed for. Why would it be unrealistic to say he would need to play like Warren Sapp of 2000 to live up to that type of contract? Are you saying if he were getting 5.5 or 6 sacks with 35-40 tackles -- you'd be fine with making him the highest paid defensive player?

And with Ebron -- I said, the only TE's in the NFL worthy of spending a top 10 pick on is Graham and Gronk. Ebron will never be Graham unless he hits a growth spurt and he could be like Gronk, but he needs to get exponentially better at blocking and catching the ball, which could happen.

So i wasn't comparing Ebron to either of them -- I just stated they are the only two TE's in the NFL worthy of a pick that high.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Im still not willing to invest that type of money in a DT, especially when there's more value in replacing him than to spend all those resources on him. I like the odds of addition by subtraction in this case. Take the cap space and draft picks and make it happen.

I can see both sides on this one.

For me it all comes down to $$. If he's willing to take an average of $13 to $15 million per year range, then I'm all about re-signing him, but there has to be a limit on what we're willing to pay him, and, imo, that limit should be relative to J.J. Watt's average of $17 million per season.

 

[gandydancer]

14 is my ceiling for Suh. JMO... I also do not think he wants to be here. That story of New York may be bullshit or true. Somebody will pay huge money. I just might have to praise Mayhew for righting his wrong by letting him walk if he wants 17 or more.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Watt's deal sounds like its a lot more than it really is. I started this thread showing its effectively a 5 yr deal worth $62m. The years that follow are all salary and the Texans can walk away free and clear or sign him to a new deal.

It's not that difficult for the Lions to give Suh an even better deal, with a bigger guarantee, more immediate $, and more than the Watt deal. And at the same time keep the cap hits within a very reasonable range.

Certainly the market price has been set with the Watt contract. Unless Suh and his agent are so full of themselves in thinking he deserves even more the bar has been set. I think he simply does not want to play in Detroit. I personally think he is a self serving piece of shit. But he wears my teams colors so I root for him. He'll be one of my most hated players next season when he is in a different uniform.

I hope that Golden Tate bangs his girlfriend, sister, mom, and grandma.

 

[Godstree]

Naturally. I forget sometimes that random 'SportsHoopla posters have the inside scoop on NFL superstars via their own, personal, super-secret sources... My bad.

I understand your pessimistic view of what I wrote. But, one day after you have signed the guy and he does something that the league deems bannable, on or off the field, and he is gone for a lengthy amount of time you will understand why I wouldn't do his contract. The ripple effect alone would kill the Lions. Look at what Calvin's contract is doing to them and will continue to do to them.

BTW, I don't have inside scoop of anybody else. Him I do about a certain situation. In my job I meet all kinds of celebrities though for very brief amounts of time.

 

[TwoCents22]

I understand your pessimistic view of what I wrote. But, one day after you have signed the guy and he does something that the league deems bannable, on or off the field, and he is gone for a lengthy amount of time you will understand why I wouldn't do his contract. The ripple effect alone would kill the Lions. Look at what Calvin's contract is doing to them and will continue to do to them.

BTW, I don't have inside scoop of anybody else. Him I do about a certain situation. In my job I meet all kinds of celebrities though for very brief amounts of time.

Did you talk to his sister?

 

[Brasky]

Suh wants to become a brand. Detroit is not the easiest place to accomplish that. However, the media attention that he would receive from such a contract would be some great advertising.

I don't know that it would have to be that much more than Watt as long as he gets the title highest paid defensive player ever. I agree that the majority of these ridiculous contracts ever get paid in full and this one can be no exception. Back end loaded with a team option of terminating the contract without any dead money.

Always interesting to get your opinion on cap issues. Welcome back.

Just from an outsider who knows Suh's whole history, I'd say there are a couple things to factor in here:

1. He loves his home town of Portland and he's all about family. He would probably prefer to live somewhere on the west coast where it's easier to get to and from the Pacific NW.

2. He's trying to buck his current image. It might sound silly, but when you think about it a change in location and jersey color could do wonders for this. The narrative would be "new team, new man" or something along those lines.

On the flip side, the final thing to consider is holy shit that is a lot of fucking money.

 

[Godstree]

Did you talk to his sister?

nope. The person I talked to was not his family, but in my wife's family.