Steve Nash: The Finish Line

[MHSL82]

Ben Stiller, I mean, Steve Nash is doing a documentary about his last year or two in the league. He talks about his difficulties with rehab and the mental aspects of a career ending. I knew it would never happen, but I thought it would've been cool if he went to the Jazz the year after Stockton. That was 10 years ago, amazing, huh?

The Finish Line: Episode 1

 

[nuraman00]

Ben Stiller, I mean, Steve Nash is doing a documentary about his last year or two in the league. He talks about his difficulties with rehab and the mental aspects of a career ending. I knew it would never happen, but I thought it would've been cool if he went to the Jazz the year after Stockton. That was 10 years ago, amazing, huh?

The Finish Line: Episode 1

Why wouldn't it happen? All the Jazz had to do was sign him instead of Okur.

Then you get Nash and Boozer with Kirilenko still on the team.

WIN.

Boozer >>>> Stoudemire

Nash > Nash (because of Sloan)

AK with Nash = Marion (less rebounding, different styles of defense, possibly the same scoring).

 

[MHSL82]

Why wouldn't it happen? All the Jazz had to do was sign him instead of Okur.

Then you get Nash and Boozer with Kirilenko still on the team.

WIN.

Boozer >>>> Stoudemire

Nash > Nash (because of Sloan)

AK with Nash = Marion (less rebounding, different styles of defense, possibly the same scoring).

Being a good thing and the likelihood of it happening isn't the same thing. In fact, it being a good thing was a reason why I didn't think would happen. We would've had to trade for him because he was on his last year in Dallas. The Jazz at that time typically did not trade for real players; they traded for the rights to European players who may or may not not ever come. In other words, cap space. And no, Canadian isn't European.

 

[nuraman00]

Being a good thing and the likelihood of it happening isn't the same thing. In fact, it being a good thing was a reason why I didn't think would happen. We would've had to trade for him because he was on his last year in Dallas. The Jazz at that time typically did not trade for real players; they traded for the rights to European players who may or may not not ever come. In other words, cap space. And no, Canadian isn't European.

They didn't need to trade for him, they could have just waited when he was a FA in 2004 and signed him.

Hence you still get the good team with AK as an All-Star, and the remarkable play of Handlogten, in 2003-2004. That would entice Nash to want to play with the Jazz.

Also, if Randy Rigby was the GM then, he would have gotten it done.

 

[MHSL82]

They didn't need to trade for him, they could have just waited when he was a FA in 2004 and signed him.

Hence you still get the good team with AK as an All-Star, and the remarkable play of Handlogten, in 2003-2004. That would entice Nash to want to play with the Jazz.

Also, if Randy Rigby was the GM then, he would have gotten it done.

I meant in 2003. I didn't want to wait. And this would have meant no Deron Williams.

Considering 2003 was TEN YEARS AGO (and thus we would have had Nash for 8 healthy years), would you have taken 2003 with Nash and perhaps Malone never goes to LA (but never knowing about how Deron would do here), or Deron Williams, knowing how it turned out? (Assume Malone stays for two years and Boozer comes in 2005 for some reason.) Same or different result if it's Chris Paul instead of Deron?

 

[Retroram52]

Yea, its called old age and your body is done. Come to grips with it Stevie. Everyone goes through it but apparently you are unable to accept what is inevitable.

 

[nuraman00]

I meant in 2003. I didn't want to wait. And this would have meant no Deron Williams.

Considering 2003 was TEN YEARS AGO (and thus we would have had Nash for 8 healthy years), would you have taken 2003 with Nash and perhaps Malone never goes to LA (but never knowing about how Deron would do here), or Deron Williams, knowing how it turned out? (Assume Malone stays for two years and Boozer comes in 2005 for some reason.) Same or different result if it's Chris Paul instead of Deron?

I would take Nash because he was better than Deron.

Way better shooter (especially FTs, Deron was below average on FTs).

Both were bad with turnovers so that's not a difference.

Both were bad defenders, Deron's reaction time was like the 219th best runner in the Olympics. Unremarkable. He defended small for his position, not big.

Nash at least hustled and tried.

If it were Chris Paul? Chris Paul is the more skilled of Nash and Deron. One of the best at turnovers in NBA history. Better defender, better at steals.

However, I've changed my mind over the years on Paul. His style of play is problematic. He holds onto the ball for 21 seconds. He gets his assists because he's the only one with the ball.

Nash and Stockton would be constantly moving, thus leading to more overall team movement.

Paul doesn't move as much, in general. Maybe it's better this year under Doc, but it shouldn't take a coach to get someone to move the ball more, and a coach can't change everything.

So I don't know, I don't know if Paul's style is as conducive to winning, even though he gets assists and has historically low turnovers.

Billups was also great at turnovers, but he made quicker decisions. He does something, or he gives it to Hamilton/Prince/Rasheed/Okur. They had a plan.

Paul's offense seems to be to hold onto the ball then finally find someone who's open to make the shot. Too slow.

Again, a friend had to convince me of this, but I agree now.

I did like the Paul pass to Boozer in the ASG a few years ago, but cmon, it's an ASG. That's not real basketball, it's not about matchups.

Stockton played on a variety of paces, some fast, some some of the slowest in the league, but the ball was moving, even if it was a slow offense. He, Russell, Hornacek, Malone, would all be doing something.


I'd still take Paul over Deron.

Deron was a good playmaker but played at half speed, was terrible with turnovers, couldn't make defense, and played like half his size and a third of his speed on defense, plus he gets hurt too much.

 

[nuraman00]

Ok, fine. Jazz trade for Nash, then Boozer comes a year later, and AK is happier because Deron isn't glaring at him.

Plus Nash could cheer AK up if he felt too much pressure from Sloan.

AK was a great player at his best, but after 2005-2006, he couldn't play his best most of the time.

I can't promise a NBA title, but I can promise one NBA Finals appearance in those 8 years, and a few WCF. I'd take that.

 

[MHSL82]

Thanks.

Interesting take on Chris Paul, definitely against the grain. I never thought about that. I just wanted the PG to have the ball second to last, have good court vision, accurate passer (know where a player wants the ball), and be a good enough defender. Hadn't thought about tempo and movement.

 

[nuraman00]

Thanks.

Interesting take on Chris Paul, definitely against the grain. I never thought about that. I just wanted the PG to have the ball second to last, have good court vision, accurate passer (know where a player wants the ball), and be a good enough defender. Hadn't thought about tempo and movement.

I thought I mentioned this in the previous post, but it wasn't my thought. A friend convinced me of this over the years.

Every year when we'd talk about the playoffs and break down all the series, he would continuously pick against Chris Paul's team and mention how his style of play hampered his teams, especially in the playoffs. He'd also mention how he liked Deron's style a lot more.

I didn't mind Paul's style as much on the Hornets, because they didn't have a lot of offensive talent.

But now on the Clippers, they have a lot of offensive talent, and Paul still has the ball in his hands too much IMO. They shouldn't need him to be the driving force for these comebacks or closeouts of teams. It should be a team win.

I mentioned the Bobcats game with 42 assists for a few reasons. One is that I like seeing everybody get assists (especially big men). That means everyone is moving the ball, not just one player (usually PG). Wish I'd seen that Bobcats game. I wonder what those 3 non-assisted FGs were like, lol.

Also from watching the 90s Portland teams and early 2000s Kings (both under Adelman), all of their players could move the ball.

Also that's what I liked about Sloan's flex offense. Malone and Kirilenko, especially as bigs, would make great bounce passes to cutters for layups. Again, the Jazz seemed to have games where the ball was moving quickly and everybody was making the right decision. In those cases, if team assists are high but the max individual assists might only be 7 or 8, fine by me.

The Heat move the ball well too. Bosh, James, Wade, Allen, all can pass and make the right play.

Back to Chris Paul, I remember a quote by him on the Hornets, when he said that he needed all 24 seconds to run some of their complicated plays. I now sarcastically look at it and go "No, the plays aren't that complicated, you're just not able to create a breakdown of their defense and keep the ball moving fast enough".

As I said earlier, I love low turnover PGs (Billups, Payton, Paul, hell even Bibby was low at turnovers, probably the only good thing he could do). But for Paul, I wonder if it's coming at the expense of controlling the ball too much.


At the beginning of this Jazz season, I didn't mind the low assists by Burke because it seemed that the ball was still moving a lot throughout the team. Plus Hayward is good at driving and creating shots, better than Burke.

But now, it's not just Burke's low assists, but lack of growth. I wonder if he's going to be one of those players that doesn't grow much throughout his career. I think of Chris Kaman as an example. He's still pretty much the same player he was as a rookie. Sure he had a few good seasons, but that's only because his role expanded, not because he improved a lot. Continuing on the Kaman example, Kaman was in the same draft class as James/Anthony/Bosh/Wade. Kaman is a distant success compared to them.

That's how I see Burke compared to Carter-Williams and Oladipo right now. They all might be on the Rising Stars game, but Burke is not up to their level yet.

 

[MHSL82]

Damn, you're getting me more interested in the NBA again. For a second there, I was getting more interested in the NFL. That's what happens when you have a not-so-good team, little time, and have local players in the NFL.

 

[MHSL82]

"The Finish Line" Episode 2: Steve Nash and the Stretch Provision

 

[nuraman00]

Wow, I just realized there's videos in this thread. I might watch them this weekend, or else next weekend.

 

[MHSL82]

Stockton vs Nash: Which Point Guard Would You Start Your Franchise With? | Bleacher Report

 

[MHSL82]

I don't want Nash at this point of his career, but I wish we had a point guard who could get 11 assists in 19 minutes with the Lakers talent (no Kobe, no one).

Lakers' Steve Nash Dishes 11 Assists in 19 Minutes Friday - ESPN Los Angeles

 

[MHSL82]

Steve Nash bridges generations from 1984 NBA draft to present day - ESPN Los Angeles

 

[MHSL82]

Los Angeles Lakers Steve Nash will miss entire 2014-2015 season, and the plight of point guards over the age of 36 - SLC Dunk