Something interesting I heard

[JBM73]

From ESPN Insider. Top D-men trade targets:

1. Dustin Byfuglien, Winnipeg Jets
Age: 28 | 2013-14 cap hit: $5,200,000 | UFA: 2016-17

Even though he's been playing forward as of late for the Jets, teams in on him in trade talks would most likely stick him on the blue line (the value of his contract is a little high if he sticks on the wing). Given the need around the league for a top-four defenseman on just about any team that doesn't play its home games in Pittsburgh, there's been speculation sending him to a multitude of destinations; Boston has emerged in the minds of some as such a destination, though GM Peter Chiarelli has noted that the team isn't interested in such a move. Nevertheless, expect the rumor mill to churn out lots more on the Minnesota native ahead of the deadline.

2. Andrew MacDonald, New York Islanders
Age: 27 | 2013-14 cap hit: $550,000 | UFA: 2014-15

Although MacDonald's deal runs merely to the end of this season -- and he'll need to be paid more than $16 million over the next four seasons, apparently -- he may be the most enticing blueliner on the market this spring. MacDonald has filled in admirably for an Islanders defensive corps that lost Mark Streit this past offseason and has been repeatedly stung by the injury bug. Teams acquiring MacDonald will likely be doing so with a contract extension in mind, as he appears to have some upside remaining.

3. Christian Ehrhoff, Buffalo Sabres
Age: 31 | 2013-14 cap hit: $4,000,000 | UFA: 2021-22

We may have flying cars -- or at least hoverboards -- by the time Ehrhoff's contract is up (and he'll be 39), but at the time he signed that pact, it didn't look altogether horrible: He'd scored 94 points over the previous two seasons combined, played around 23 minutes per night and was remarkably durable. The production has gone down a bit since he's been wearing a Sabres sweater, but he's talented enough that he could be a difference-maker for a team in need of a top-four D-man (and again, there are a lot of teams on that list). But, to be clear, inheriting the rest of that contract is going to be a tough pill to swallow for the acquiring club.

4. Trevor Daley, Dallas Stars
Age: 30 | 2013-14 cap hit: $3,300,000 | UFA: 2017-18

When pondering the players that could be on the move ahead of the deadline, one must consider the standings; the play in the early games once the Olympic break is over could turn bubble teams into buyers or sellers. Dallas is among the teams flirting with contention, and the fate of Daley may hang in the balance. Daley has been an effective player this season, and given the length of his current contract, he's not a player that a team would be adding as merely a rental for the stretch run. If the price tag on Byfuglien is too high, Daley is a fine Plan B, albeit one with much less offensive upside.

5. Jake Gardiner, Toronto Maple Leafs
Age: 23 | 2013-14 cap hit: $875,000 | RFA: 2014-15

There are times when Gardiner looks like he has all the potential in the world -- he scored 30 points in 75 games during his rookie campaign of 2011-12 -- but for whatever reason, things have not worked out so well the past two seasons. With many believing that the Maple Leafs are on the hunt for some help up front, it's also thought that Gardiner could be among the bounty used to acquire said help. We're not going to bring up a certain Blues forward in saying that the Leafs are making another mistake on a high-upside youngster, but that could well be the case if Gardiner lands with a coach who's willing to use him in the proper situations.

 

[awaz]

gardiner or nobody IMO.. flyers don't have cap space to fit anyone else in without something drastic, and i dont think the players that will be on the move are worth drastic changes

 

[Maverick426h]

gardiner or nobody IMO.. flyers don't have cap space to fit anyone else in without something drastic, and i dont think the players that will be on the move are worth drastic changes

I hate to be like this, but I can't resist the urge. Yeah, hey...let's swap B. Schenn for Gardiner and see if Toronto can make him a 30 goal scorer while Gardiner struggles to reach his previous form.

Boy, that'd be fucking ironic...lol

 

[awaz]

I hate to be like this, but I can't resist the urge. Yeah, hey...let's swap B. Schenn for Gardiner and see if Toronto can make him a 30 goal scorer while Gardiner struggles to reach his previous form.

Boy, that'd be fucking ironic...lol

ha, i wouldn't give up BSchenn though, so i guess what i really mean is, Gardiner if it's a steal, or nobody.

I would do like, gardiner for like, laughton and a 2nd.

 

[JBM73]

I was surprised to see that Gustafsson was a +11.

I wouldn't mind swapping Grossmann for Daley, unlikely I know.

 

[Cobiemonster]

I was surprised to see that Gustafsson was a +11.

I wouldn't mind swapping Grossmann for Daley, unlikely I know.

I've been banging that drum for WEEKS now - I would love that trade for the Flyers - a subtle yet smart move that will help them

 

[awaz]

I was surprised to see that Gustafsson was a +11.

I wouldn't mind swapping Grossmann for Daley, unlikely I know.

I've been banging that drum for WEEKS now - I would love that trade for the Flyers - a subtle yet smart move that will help them

i dno, i think that's a trade for the sake of a trade.. grossmann and daly play similar roles, grossmann is UFA in 2017 at 3.5, daly is UFA in 2018 at 3.3.. daly is 2 years older..

i dont really know how that makes the flyers much better.. i feel like that's just getting rid of grossmann because you want to. the grass isn't always greener.

 

[awaz]

i dno, i think that's a trade for the sake of a trade.. grossmann and daly play similar roles, grossmann is UFA in 2017 at 3.5, daly is UFA in 2018 at 3.3.. daly is 2 years older..

i dont really know how that makes the flyers much better.. i feel like that's just getting rid of grossmann because you want to. the grass isn't always greener.

maybe daly is a little more of a puck-mover?

ill be honest, i dont watch the stars much haha

 

[Cobiemonster]

i dno, i think that's a trade for the sake of a trade.. grossmann and daly play similar roles, grossmann is UFA in 2017 at 3.5, daly is UFA in 2018 at 3.3.. daly is 2 years older..

i dont really know how that makes the flyers much better.. i feel like that's just getting rid of grossmann because you want to. the grass isn't always greener.

Those two guys do not play the same role - Trevor Daley is much more offensively than Nicklas Grossmann and he's more mobile

The "grass isn't always greener" theory can't prevent them from making a move if they feel it is going to help the team - if I liked Nicklas Grossmann than chances are he'd be a pretty good player for this team - I don't like him because I don't think he's a player that helps this team long term - you can't be scared to get rid of a player like him - he's not that great of a player - if they trade him for Trevor Daley, the Flyers can't get worse because of it, right? If he's that great then he should be showing it right now, he doesn't show it every night - he's too slow and when you go against teams who have speed, he gets burnt - and it's not like he's a tremendous shut down guy either - the way I see it, if you think they're both middle pack d-men, why not have the one in Trevor Daley who is more mobile, can move the puck up the ice and give them a little more offense? That's how teams win the NHL these days, you need more guys like that - how many teams have a guy like Nicklas Grossmann as one of their key defensemen? Teams are going for more offense now - if people are scared the team is going to get worse because they trade Nicklas Grossmann, shame on them - they're not going to lose because of him being traded, it's going to be for a lot of other reasons most likely

 

[awaz]

maybe daly is a little more of a puck-mover?

ill be honest, i dont watch the stars much haha

missed this one at the end of the page

Those two guys do not play the same role - Trevor Daley is much more offensively than Nicklas Grossmann and he's more mobile

The "grass isn't always greener" theory can't prevent them from making a move if they feel it is going to help the team - if I liked Nicklas Grossmann than chances are he'd be a pretty good player for this team - I don't like him because I don't think he's a player that helps this team long term - you can't be scared to get rid of a player like him - he's not that great of a player - if they trade him for Trevor Daley, the Flyers can't get worse because of it, right? If he's that great then he should be showing it right now, he doesn't show it every night - he's too slow and when you go against teams who have speed, he gets burnt - and it's not like he's a tremendous shut down guy either - the way I see it, if you think they're both middle pack d-men, why not have the one in Trevor Daley who is more mobile, can move the puck up the ice and give them a little more offense? That's how teams win the NHL these days, you need more guys like that - how many teams have a guy like Nicklas Grossmann as one of their key defensemen? Teams are going for more offense now - if people are scared the team is going to get worse because they trade Nicklas Grossmann, shame on them - they're not going to lose because of him being traded, it's going to be for a lot of other reasons most likely

bold 1: i don't agree with that statement. they absolutely could get worse.
bold 2: i do think that.
bold 3. lots. list to follow.

Blackhawks '13
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Michal Rozsival

Kings '12
Matt Greene
Willie Mitchell
Rob Scuderi

Bruins '11
Adam McQuaid
Zdeno Chara (he's cheating because he's both, but i'd argue he's even better defensively than offensively)

Blackhawks '10
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Brent Sopel

Pens '09
Hal Gill
Brooks Orpik
Rob Scuderi

that's just the last 5 cup winners. i'm sure you could run through every other competitive team in the league and find more. i'll just add one more..

Ducks '14
Sbisa (1 point in 14 games)
Allen (7 points in 48 games)
Fistric (5 points in 29 games)
Lovejoy (13 points in 58 games)
Beauchemin (11 points in 50 games)

that's the #1 team in the NHL right now.



do the flyers have too many of that type? maybe you can make that argument. if you say coburn, schenn, and grossmann all provide nothing but defense. but, at least in coburn's case, i don't think that's true. and LSchenn has the potential to be more still.

looking at all dmen in the flyers rotation, i actually really like the mix. if you need more speed and offense in the lineup, you can have mesz and gus in there. if you need more brawn, grossmann can play. if you need a shit ton of brawn (rare), you can have gil and grossman play.

what happens if you go up against the bruins in the playoffs, do you really want coburn and schenn to be the only guys with size on the back end? they'll get slaughtered. (because i know you don't want gill out there)

 

[Cobiemonster]

missed this one at the end of the page



bold 1: i don't agree with that statement. they absolutely could get worse.
bold 2: i do think that.
bold 3. lots. list to follow.

Blackhawks '13
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Michal Rozsival

Kings '12
Matt Greene
Willie Mitchell
Rob Scuderi

Bruins '11
Adam McQuaid
Zdeno Chara (he's cheating because he's both, but i'd argue he's even better defensively than offensively)

Blackhawks '10
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Brent Sopel

Pens '09
Hal Gill
Brooks Orpik
Rob Scuderi

that's just the last 5 cup winners. i'm sure you could run through every other competitive team in the league and find more. i'll just add one more..

Ducks '14
Sbisa (1 point in 14 games)
Allen (7 points in 48 games)
Fistric (5 points in 29 games)
Lovejoy (13 points in 58 games)
Beauchemin (11 points in 50 games)

that's the #1 team in the NHL right now.



do the flyers have too many of that type? maybe you can make that argument. if you say coburn, schenn, and grossmann all provide nothing but defense. but, at least in coburn's case, i don't think that's true. and LSchenn has the potential to be more still.

looking at all dmen in the flyers rotation, i actually really like the mix. if you need more speed and offense in the lineup, you can have mesz and gus in there. if you need more brawn, grossmann can play. if you need a shit ton of brawn (rare), you can have gil and grossman play.

what happens if you go up against the bruins in the playoffs, do you really want coburn and schenn to be the only guys with size on the back end? they'll get slaughtered. (because i know you don't want gill out there)

The last five cup teams(I won't put Zdeno Chara on that list because he's the best d-man in BOS), those teams had top number one d-men on those teams - the Flyers probably rely on Nicklas Grossmann more than those other teams relied on those guys, or at least equal - the Flyers don't really have that, so when you have a chance to upgrade, you should

As for the Ducks, I would take every single one of them except maybe Bryan Allen - Beauchemin was top 5 in Norris voting last season, Ben Lovejoy is much more mobile and better, Mark Fistric is cheaper and brings as much physicality and Luca Sbisa is still relatively young with potential

I agree with your point about the Flyers mix on defense - I don't think any one guy is spectacular by any means but as a group they've seemed to gel well enough - but if they could trade Nicklas Grossmann for Trevor Daley it will give them even more mobility

I don't want to think that Nicklas Grossmann is going to be the difference between the Flyers getting slaughtered by the Bruins and not because it shouldn't come down to him being a difference in that category

Nicklas Grossmann needs to be moved also so that Mesz and Gus can play every night - I can even make the case that if they get Trevor Daley, they could move Kimmo Timonen - be like the Sharks last season, who traded Ryane Clowe and Douglas Murray but yet they were even better after they traded those guys because it gave young kids a chance - if they trade Kimmo + move Gross for Trevor Daley, a defense would look like this:

Braydon Coburn, Mark Streit, Erik Gustafsson, Andrej Meszaros, Trevor Daley and Luke Schenn - although I don't see them moving Kimmo so it's probably a moot point, but with Kimmo, you could have Luke Schenn as the 7th defenseman and if you play the Bruins, you alternate him with possibly Mesz from time to time

 

[JBM73]

Daley is definitely more mobile and a much better puck mover, but he's not really an offensive-type guy. He won't put up a ton of points and won't see much PP time. I think he would be an upgrade because the Flyers D is just waaaaay to slow as currently constructed, and Grossmann has been abysmal at even strength this year.

Don't forget the Flyers also have Hal Gill, a guy who is too slow to see the ice much during the regular season, but who has excelled historically in his role during the playoffs, to go with Coburn and Schenn. I would see him, Mesz and Gustafsson splitting the 6/7/8 roles in the playoffs.

 

[awaz]

The last five cup teams(I won't put Zdeno Chara on that list because he's the best d-man in BOS), those teams had top number one d-men on those teams - the Flyers probably rely on Nicklas Grossmann more than those other teams relied on those guys, or at least equal - the Flyers don't really have that, so when you have a chance to upgrade, you should

As for the Ducks, I would take every single one of them except maybe Bryan Allen - Beauchemin was top 5 in Norris voting last season, Ben Lovejoy is much more mobile and better, Mark Fistric is cheaper and brings as much physicality and Luca Sbisa is still relatively young with potential

I agree with your point about the Flyers mix on defense - I don't think any one guy is spectacular by any means but as a group they've seemed to gel well enough - but if they could trade Nicklas Grossmann for Trevor Daley it will give them even more mobility

I don't want to think that Nicklas Grossmann is going to be the difference between the Flyers getting slaughtered by the Bruins and not because it shouldn't come down to him being a difference in that category

Nicklas Grossmann needs to be moved also so that Mesz and Gus can play every night - I can even make the case that if they get Trevor Daley, they could move Kimmo Timonen - be like the Sharks last season, who traded Ryane Clowe and Douglas Murray but yet they were even better after they traded those guys because it gave young kids a chance - if they trade Kimmo + move Gross for Trevor Daley, a defense would look like this:

Braydon Coburn, Mark Streit, Erik Gustafsson, Andrej Meszaros, Trevor Daley and Luke Schenn - although I don't see them moving Kimmo so it's probably a moot point, but with Kimmo, you could have Luke Schenn as the 7th defenseman and if you play the Bruins, you alternate him with possibly Mesz from time to time

more to come after this, but i had to get this in first. the defense bolded, IMO, is a large step back for the flyers.

 

[Cobiemonster]

Daley is definitely more mobile and a much better puck mover, but he's not really an offensive-type guy. He won't put up a ton of points and won't see much PP time. I think he would be an upgrade because the Flyers D is just waaaaay to slow as currently constructed, and Grossmann has been abysmal at even strength this year.

Don't forget the Flyers also have Hal Gill, a guy who is too slow to see the ice much during the regular season, but who has excelled historically in his role during the playoffs, to go with Coburn and Schenn. I would see him, Mesz and Gustafsson splitting the 6/7/8 roles in the playoffs.

Yeah Hal Gill, as rested as he's been, could probably play during the playoffs if he had to - I think it'd be interesting having him out there, I think in big games he's really good, actually - he's not good enough to play all 82 games but he is smart and plays well in big games and his presence in the locker room helps everyone

 

[awaz]

The last five cup teams(I won't put Zdeno Chara on that list because he's the best d-man in BOS), those teams had top number one d-men on those teams - the Flyers probably rely on Nicklas Grossmann more than those other teams relied on those guys, or at least equal - the Flyers don't really have that, so when you have a chance to upgrade, you should

As for the Ducks, I would take every single one of them except maybe Bryan Allen - Beauchemin was top 5 in Norris voting last season, Ben Lovejoy is much more mobile and better, Mark Fistric is cheaper and brings as much physicality and Luca Sbisa is still relatively young with potential

I agree with your point about the Flyers mix on defense - I don't think any one guy is spectacular by any means but as a group they've seemed to gel well enough - but if they could trade Nicklas Grossmann for Trevor Daley it will give them even more mobility

I don't want to think that Nicklas Grossmann is going to be the difference between the Flyers getting slaughtered by the Bruins and not because it shouldn't come down to him being a difference in that category

Nicklas Grossmann needs to be moved also so that Mesz and Gus can play every night - I can even make the case that if they get Trevor Daley, they could move Kimmo Timonen - be like the Sharks last season, who traded Ryane Clowe and Douglas Murray but yet they were even better after they traded those guys because it gave young kids a chance - if they trade Kimmo + move Gross for Trevor Daley, a defense would look like this:

Braydon Coburn, Mark Streit, Erik Gustafsson, Andrej Meszaros, Trevor Daley and Luke Schenn - although I don't see them moving Kimmo so it's probably a moot point, but with Kimmo, you could have Luke Schenn as the 7th defenseman and if you play the Bruins, you alternate him with possibly Mesz from time to time

1. I'll accept the #1 dman thing, though i think timonen is still under-appreciated. he may not be a #1 guy, but he's a A+ #2 if you put him there IMO. But as far as other teams relying less on their guys than the flyers do on grossmann, i don't necessarily know that that's true. it's all about which roles they play. doughty is a bonafide #1 dman now, but i'm guessing he wasn't the dman they threw out there to shut down #1 lines in the playoffs 2 years ago. that's why you have guys like matt greene and rob scuderi. so i think the flyers reliance on grossmann, and the kings reliance on rob scuderi or matt greene at the time, were probably pretty close to equal

2. not arguing whether or not you take them. that list was to point out that lots of teams have defense first defensemen. there's a big need for that still in the NHL. it's not all about puck movement and speed. sure it's nice to have, but that's why guys like chara, doughty, pietrangelo, make the money they do and are so valuable on the trade market (as in, invaluable). for teams not as fortunate as the bruins, blues, or kings, they have to make do with guys who can do 1 thing well. and have multiple guys that can do one thing well and make a good mix

3. on a potential bruins series, a lot of times it does come down to guys like nick grossmann. to say you don't want it to, doesn't make it go away. the bruins are a damn good team and if you need nick grossman's size instead of trevor daly's speed, what's wrong with that?

4. why do mesz and gustafsson need to play every night? i like gus a lot, but if you put him out there with a guy like mesz, who plays defense? we've learned it's not going to be the forwards, so you have to have him with someone capable. you could put schenn with him and make a good 3rd pair, then you end up with.. streit and mesz as your 2nd pair? i dont think anyone is comfortable with that pair defensively. do you split coburn and timonen up, taking minutes away from your two best dmen (by far IMO), just so you can have gus and mesz in the lineup?

 

[Cobiemonster]

1. I'll accept the #1 dman thing, though i think timonen is still under-appreciated. he may not be a #1 guy, but he's a A+ #2 if you put him there IMO. But as far as other teams relying less on their guys than the flyers do on grossmann, i don't necessarily know that that's true. it's all about which roles they play. doughty is a bonafide #1 dman now, but i'm guessing he wasn't the dman they threw out there to shut down #1 lines in the playoffs 2 years ago. that's why you have guys like matt greene and rob scuderi. so i think the flyers reliance on grossmann, and the kings reliance on rob scuderi or matt greene at the time, were probably pretty close to equal

2. not arguing whether or not you take them. that list was to point out that lots of teams have defense first defensemen. there's a big need for that still in the NHL. it's not all about puck movement and speed. sure it's nice to have, but that's why guys like chara, doughty, pietrangelo, make the money they do and are so valuable on the trade market (as in, invaluable). for teams not as fortunate as the bruins, blues, or kings, they have to make do with guys who can do 1 thing well. and have multiple guys that can do one thing well and make a good mix

3. on a potential bruins series, a lot of times it does come down to guys like nick grossmann. to say you don't want it to, doesn't make it go away. the bruins are a damn good team and if you need nick grossman's size instead of trevor daly's speed, what's wrong with that?

4. why do mesz and gustafsson need to play every night? i like gus a lot, but if you put him out there with a guy like mesz, who plays defense? we've learned it's not going to be the forwards, so you have to have him with someone capable. you could put schenn with him and make a good 3rd pair, then you end up with.. streit and mesz as your 2nd pair? i dont think anyone is comfortable with that pair defensively. do you split coburn and timonen up, taking minutes away from your two best dmen (by far IMO), just so you can have gus and mesz in the lineup?

1) DD played like a bonafide number one in the playoffs, actually better then than he has so far in the NHL regular season this year - and I think Rob Scuderi is 10x better than Nicklas Grossmann - if they could swap those two I would do it in an instant

2) Anybody can be a defensive-first defenseman but the key is whether you're good at it or not - those guys in Anaheim are good at it, Nicklas Grossmann is inconsistent at it

3) Why would you keep Nicklas Grossmann just because you think you might play Boston in the playoffs? The biggest concern should be which players are going to be best for your team in all situations/games/opponents and not focusing on having a guy just for one opponent

4) Mesz and Gus are not guys that should be sitting - they both need to be in the lineup because their rewards outweigh whatever disadvantages they may have - I don't like that one of them has to sit out just because a "defensive defenseman" has to be out there

 

[awaz]

1) DD played like a bonafide number one in the playoffs, actually better then than he has so far in the NHL regular season this year - and I think Rob Scuderi is 10x better than Nicklas Grossmann - if they could swap those two I would do it in an instant

2) Anybody can be a defensive-first defenseman but the key is whether you're good at it or not - those guys in Anaheim are good at it, Nicklas Grossmann is inconsistent at it

3) Why would you keep Nicklas Grossmann just because you think you might play Boston in the playoffs? The biggest concern should be which players are going to be best for your team in all situations/games/opponents and not focusing on having a guy just for one opponent

4) Mesz and Gus are not guys that should be sitting - they both need to be in the lineup because their rewards outweigh whatever disadvantages they may have - I don't like that one of them has to sit out just because a "defensive defenseman" has to be out there

1. Fair enough.

2. I think Grossmann is good at it, but we can agree to disagree. Defensive defensemen are only noticed when they play poorly. It's why so many of them get rushed out of town and then the team comes to regret it. A la scuderi leaving the pens. Underappreciated.

3. You don't, but you have to look at all your opponents and what makes you the best match against the most teams. The Bruins aren't the only team with big forwards. What about the Rangers? I've seen people beleaguere the defense corps and the team because they were intimidated. You get smaller on the back end, you'll be more intimidated.

4. I disagree with that completely. You have to have players who can play defense. It makes no sense to throw out a bunch of offensively cape guys because 'the reward outweighs the risk'. You have to play defense? It's a fact in all sports. If you don't have guys who can play at both ends of the ice, then some of your dmen have to play good defense and suck on offense. It's just how it is.


I guess I just don't understand your line of thinking. The flyers are mediocre to bad on defense according to 95% of the people that follow them and your solution is to get rid of the guys that play defense for guys that think offense first. Isn't that the opposite of what the flyers need to do in that case?

(I actually think the flyers are fine defensively. They just need to commit to it as a team. I like the group. But I'm very much in the 5% minority. My only real concern is they are screwed when timonen departs. They have no top pair guys other than timonen and, when he's playing well, coburn)

 

[Cobiemonster]

1. Fair enough.

2. I think Grossmann is good at it, but we can agree to disagree. Defensive defensemen are only noticed when they play poorly. It's why so many of them get rushed out of town and then the team comes to regret it. A la scuderi leaving the pens. Underappreciated.

3. You don't, but you have to look at all your opponents and what makes you the best match against the most teams. The Bruins aren't the only team with big forwards. What about the Rangers? I've seen people beleaguere the defense corps and the team because they were intimidated. You get smaller on the back end, you'll be more intimidated.

4. I disagree with that completely. You have to have players who can play defense. It makes no sense to throw out a bunch of offensively cape guys because 'the reward outweighs the risk'. You have to play defense? It's a fact in all sports. If you don't have guys who can play at both ends of the ice, then some of your dmen have to play good defense and suck on offense. It's just how it is.


I guess I just don't understand your line of thinking. The flyers are mediocre to bad on defense according to 95% of the people that follow them and your solution is to get rid of the guys that play defense for guys that think offense first. Isn't that the opposite of what the flyers need to do in that case?

(I actually think the flyers are fine defensively. They just need to commit to it as a team. I like the group. But I'm very much in the 5% minority. My only real concern is they are screwed when timonen departs. They have no top pair guys other than timonen and, when he's playing well, coburn)

The best defense is a good offense - guys who can move the puck up the ice and be mobile don't have to play defense because they're in the offensive zone - that's the way the league is trending now and the Flyers need to think that way - it makes it much easier on the goalies when you're not playing in the defensive zone all the time - every d-man will get burnt once in a while, including Mesz and Gus but their rewards outweigh their negatives - Mesz and Gus have played really well the last month or so and it's showed with their overall defensive group because they're providing more offense and it's helping the team - I'm not bashing the Flyers defense in general, I've clearly stated that as a group I like the fact that they seem to be gelling - individually they're not spectacular but as a group they're gelling - that being said, if you can get more mobile and get guys who can move the puck up the ice better, you have to do that because that is the best defense at this point - just because a guy is an offensive d-man doesn't mean he doesn't play defense - it just means that the best defense is a good offense for him

I'd rather have a defenseman that might screw up once in a while because he's trying to make plays offensively so the team isn't stuck in the d-zone all the time, than a defenseman who isn't mobile and is always stuck in the d-zone all the time - I'll take the player with more offense/mobility/puck moving ability than someone like Nicklas Grossmann, who really isn't a stalwart defensively, imho

It's clear we are thinking much differently on this front - but the Flyers have to evolve their defense and get faster, more mobile guys

 

[JBM73]

Great discussion, guys! Chicago showed how to play teams like the Bruins - heavy on skill and speed, with just enough size and toughness to avoid getting TOTALLY pushed around. Teams need defensive defensemen, yes. Absolutely. But, the best teams have defensive d-men who can skate and/or make a decent first pass. Grossmann doesn't do either well, and this liability outweighs his defensive play at 5 on 5, at least it has this year. Schenn can't skate but usually makes a decent first pass. Coburn does both well, at least when he's not over thinking the play and trying to do too much at once.

 

[awaz]

The best defense is a good offense - guys who can move the puck up the ice and be mobile don't have to play defense because they're in the offensive zone - that's the way the league is trending now and the Flyers need to think that way - it makes it much easier on the goalies when you're not playing in the defensive zone all the time - every d-man will get burnt once in a while, including Mesz and Gus but their rewards outweigh their negatives - Mesz and Gus have played really well the last month or so and it's showed with their overall defensive group because they're providing more offense and it's helping the team - I'm not bashing the Flyers defense in general, I've clearly stated that as a group I like the fact that they seem to be gelling - individually they're not spectacular but as a group they're gelling - that being said, if you can get more mobile and get guys who can move the puck up the ice better, you have to do that because that is the best defense at this point - just because a guy is an offensive d-man doesn't mean he doesn't play defense - it just means that the best defense is a good offense for him

I'd rather have a defenseman that might screw up once in a while because he's trying to make plays offensively so the team isn't stuck in the d-zone all the time, than a defenseman who isn't mobile and is always stuck in the d-zone all the time - I'll take the player with more offense/mobility/puck moving ability than someone like Nicklas Grossmann, who really isn't a stalwart defensively, imho

It's clear we are thinking much differently on this front - but the Flyers have to evolve their defense and get faster, more mobile guys

heh, that does seem to be the case doesn't it?

i'm fine with getting more mobile. they definitely need that. and they definitely need guys that make better first passes. the issue i have is they don't have what it takes to acquire guys like that. guys that are passable on defense, make a good first pass, and can skate, essentially defines what a number 1 dman is. erik karlsson, shea weber, zdeno chara, drew doughty, alex pietrangelo, fit this mold. if you have a trade scenario where you can move grossmann and bring in a guy like that, hell ya, i'm all for it. my issue is, when you don't have the value to move to bring in a guy like that, you can't just go all out offense because your defense will be god awful. and 'the best defense is a good offense' thing is a pipe dream. this is hockey. you can't spend 60 minutes in the offensive zone, it's just not going to happen, ever. of course it'd be great to have, i'd love to have that. but it's a pipe dream, especially for the flyers.

to get to the point where the flyers can turn a dump in around quickly and break out before other teams forcheck gets to them would be a changeout of the entire defense. timonen probably isn't fast enough to play like that. coburn's passing isn't consistent enough to do that. mesz's passing isn't consistent enough. grossmann is too slow and his passing isn't good enough. schenn's passing isn't good enough. streit is too slow. about the only guy who could fit that mold would be gustaffsson and he's only good enough to play 3rd line minutes right now, regardless of how much we like him.

the flyers will have to play defense. and i want defensive defensemen, a la grossmann, out there to help defend. especially while they lead the league in PIMs. if you get rid of grossmann, who do you want out there pk-ing other than timonen, coburn, and schenn? and if you move timonen because you bring in daly as previously suggested, then who do you want PK-ing?

Great discussion, guys! Chicago showed how to play teams like the Bruins - heavy on skill and speed, with just enough size and toughness to avoid getting TOTALLY pushed around. Teams need defensive defensemen, yes. Absolutely. But, the best teams have defensive d-men who can skate and/or make a decent first pass. Grossmann doesn't do either well, and this liability outweighs his defensive play at 5 on 5, at least it has this year. Schenn can't skate but usually makes a decent first pass. Coburn does both well, at least when he's not over thinking the play and trying to do too much at once.

those are hard to find, and that's my point. the way the flyers are constructed, they don't have the value or cap space to acquire defensemen in that mold or better unless they blow apart the forward ranks. they have to assemble the d-corp with a mix of 1 dimensional defensmen because they can't afford to acquire multi-faceted guys. and that being the case, you have to mix guys that can move and make the first pass, with guys who can play stout defense. with a little attention from the forwards and consistent goaltending, they can be a good team. we've seen it since berube took over. play like that, and this team can compete with the best of the best. again, we've seen it.

and in the playoffs, when the game gets tighter and more physical, i want nicklas grossmann in the flyers lineup.