So we all agree then? Russell Wilson should make at least ONE more dollar than Luck?

[Fountain City Blues]

I didn't mean to suggest you were criticizing Wilson.

Considering how quick some are to jump into the fray this offseason, that's probably just me covering my bases before someone really does overreact.

 

[es4m11]

1. Seriously, WTF does "a higher ceiling" even mean? Russ has been to 2 super bowls in 3 years.

2. And the Hawks having a run game and the Colts not is who's fault? Let's all fall in love with numbers cause we all know where that gets you

1. It means that I think Luck is currently better and when both are at their best that Luck will still be the better player. Seahawks fans like to tout Wilson's two Super Bowl appearances as if he did it all by himself. Wilson has the best supporting cast in football. Seattle fans can never shut up about how good their defense is, unless they are having a conversation about Russell Wilson's place among NFL QB's -- then that fact is irrelevant all of a sudden.

2. What fucking sense does this even make? Do you think either player controls what talent the GM brings in? Is this the best you can come up with in defense of Russ? If you don't think having a guy like Marshawn Lynch to hand off to is a big deal, then I don't know what to tell you...

 

[PDay8810]

1. It means that I think Luck is currently better and when both are at their best that Luck will still be the better player. Seahawks fans like to tout Wilson's two Super Bowl appearances as if he did it all by himself. Wilson has the best supporting cast in football. Seattle fans can never shut up about how good their defense is, unless they are having a conversation about Russell Wilson's place among NFL QB's -- then that fact is irrelevant all of a sudden.

2. What fucking sense does this even make? Do you think either player controls what talent the GM brings in? Is this the best you can come up with in defense of Russ? If you don't think having a guy like Marshawn Lynch to hand off to is a big deal, then I don't know what to tell you...

all good but you should be honored....Dude started a thread on the very phrase.
Funny Stuff!

 

[es4m11]

All those supposed weaknesses around Luck (RB and D, dont you dare try to tell me his line and WR's aren't light years better then Wilsons) allow for him to put up ungodly numbers. His counting stats were great but lets not ignore the fact that he threw the ball a bajillion times. Anyway I like Luck, I think he's a great QB. I know that RW has been to two superbowls and has one ring, I know that RW's passer rating in/out in the middle behind anywhere nera the pocket is great... AND I know Lucks taller then Wilson.

But honestly, during RW's contract negotiation, I dont want this stuff out there. He's just a short game manager. now sign the damn contrtact!

The fact that Luck throws a lot more than Wilson should not be discounted. Luck is forced to throw the ball in more high leverage situations due to the fact that teams know the pass is coming. Would Wilson be as effective throwing as often as Luck? We don't know because he is not forced to do it because he has a better team around him. When game planning for the Seahawks teams have to be ready for the pass, run and the QB option -- there is a lot of diversity in the offense and Wilson does a great job running it. Meanwhile when game planning for the Colts teams know the pass is coming because Indy can't run the ball, and Luck still goes nuts every Sunday.

I'm curious to know how you come to the conclusion that the Indy O-line is "light years better" than the Seattle O-line? Last I checked Seattle has been a dominant running team for a while, and Indy hasn't been able to run the ball effectively in years.

 

[DHoey]

2. What fucking sense does this even make? Do you think either player controls what talent the GM brings in? Is this the best you can come up with in defense of Russ? If you don't think having a guy like Marshawn Lynch to hand off to is a big deal, then I don't know what to tell you...

It means that you seem to be penelizing Russ for having good players around him. When Russ has had to put his team on his back, I think he has done just fine.

 

[HammerDown]

 

[cdumler7]

The fact that Luck throws a lot more than Wilson should not be discounted. Luck is forced to throw the ball in more high leverage situations due to the fact that teams know the pass is coming. Would Wilson be as effective throwing as often as Luck? We don't know because he is not forced to do it because he has a better team around him. When game planning for the Seahawks teams have to be ready for the pass, run and the QB option -- there is a lot of diversity in the offense and Wilson does a great job running it. Meanwhile when game planning for the Colts teams know the pass is coming because Indy can't run the ball, and Luck still goes nuts every Sunday.

I'm curious to know how you come to the conclusion that the Indy O-line is "light years better" than the Seattle O-line? Last I checked Seattle has been a dominant running team for a while, and Indy hasn't been able to run the ball effectively in years.

Very good post. The more the opposing team knows the pass is coming the easier it is for them to defend against the pass. That is pretty simple common logic. O-Line wise PFF would very much disagree with gowazzu of who has the better OL. They have Seattle with the 17th best Pass Blocking OL and Indy with the 26th best OL pass blocking wise. Run blocking wise they have Indy at 15th and Seattle at 21st so at best you could say they have comparable OL's.

Also listened to a very interesting interview the other day where they had a player from the Cardinals on and they asked him about when they are gameplanning for the Seahawks who do they put as their #1 priority to stop and he said every time it is always Marshawn Lynch. He said that if a team thinks they stand a chance to beat the Seahawks then it starts with stopping him first then Wilson 2nd. I can about guarantee that anybody playing the Colts would say Luck in a heartbeat with that question.

 

[es4m11]

all good but you should be honored....Dude started a thread on the very phrase.
Funny Stuff!

He rage typed it, too! Check out that misspelled word in the title.

 

[gowazzu02]

Wilson was the third highest paid QB on the HAWKS roster last year! lol

 

[ducky]

The guy who signs first will be the one who makes the least. That's just the way it is.

 

[gowazzu02]

The fact that Luck throws a lot more than Wilson should not be discounted. Luck is forced to throw the ball in more high leverage situations due to the fact that teams know the pass is coming. Would Wilson be as effective throwing as often as Luck? We don't know because he is not forced to do it because he has a better team around him. When game planning for the Seahawks teams have to be ready for the pass, run and the QB option -- there is a lot of diversity in the offense and Wilson does a great job running it. Meanwhile when game planning for the Colts teams know the pass is coming because Indy can't run the ball, and Luck still goes nuts every Sunday.

I'm curious to know how you come to the conclusion that the Indy O-line is "light years better" than the Seattle O-line? Last I checked Seattle has been a dominant running team for a while, and Indy hasn't been able to run the ball effectively in years.

The fact that Wilson was sacked a billion times the last few years, and breaks the pocket and scrambles cause of immediate pressure on what seems like half his throws. Lynch being lynch,,, and the read option, and Wilson running inflate the rush numbers. and the lines a decent rush blocking line, but pass protection (which in an argument about qbs) is what I was talking about. Seattles o line has been one of the worst the past few years.

 

[es4m11]

The fact that Wilson was sacked a billion times the last few years, and breaks the pocket and scrambles cause of immediate pressure on what seems like half his throws. Lynch being lynch,,, and the read option, and Wilson running inflate the rush numbers. and the lines a decent rush blocking line, but pass protection (which in an argument about qbs) is what I was talking about. Seattles o line has been one of the worst the past few years.

I would say they are very much comparable as units. Neither is very good. To say that Indy is light years better is certainly stretching the truth.

 

[PDay8810]

Seattles o line has been one of the worst the past few years.

Not true. Scheme is everything and seattle's with Wilson & lynch puts bodies at LOS. Seattle's oline is very serviceable by NFL standards.

 

[gowazzu02]

Not true. Scheme is everything and seattle's with Wilson & lynch puts bodies at LOS. Seattle's oline is very serviceable by NFL standards.

I guess we agree to disagree.

Wilson was sacked a TON, and he saved the Oline from giving up a ton of other sacks with his scrambling ability. Now combine both of those and sprinkle in the fact that Seattle passes the least amount in the entire league and you have a bottom of the barrel line.....

 

[cdumler7]

Not true. Scheme is everything and seattle's with Wilson & lynch puts bodies at LOS. Seattle's oline is very serviceable by NFL standards.

They overall rank close to middle of the pack when you combine Pass and Run blocking according to PFF. They have been since 2012. The reason Wilson takes so many sacks is he is one of the worst in the NFL at the stat time from snap to throw. Heck on the plays that he is sacked he is the longest time in over 4 seconds between snap and sack compared to Phillip Rivers who his average on snap to when he was sacked is around 2.4 seconds. So the sack total is not all the OL's fault here.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I wouldn't give Wilson anymore then 16-18 mill. He isn't anything special. Seattle wins because of the D. He has no pressure on him to perform. I think the smart move for seattle is to let him walk if he really wants 25 mill.

Nothing special...back to back SB appearances IS special...I don't care what kind of DEF you have...your QB has to make some plays to win as many playoff games as this guy has won.

Great DEF...the DEF was already great before he got there...what did they win pre-Wilson?

No pressure...I'm not sure I follow you here...everyone in the NFL is playing under some kind of pressure...as a 3rd rd pick I'm sure he's put pressure on himself just to become the starter, and once you're a starting NFL QB, they all have pressure to perform.

$25 mil per...agreed.

 

[Fountain City Blues]

Not true. Scheme is everything and seattle's with Wilson & lynch puts bodies at LOS. Seattle's oline is very serviceable by NFL standards.

Zone read complicates things significantly as well. With the limited and biased data to compare and little more than eyeballs to regress, it seems to me it's a pretty futile attempt to compare them. So instead, we're left with bashing the table shouting at each other with a Luck vs Wilson thread.

Wilson will produce just as many yards without Lynch!

Or, Luck has a better cast, of course his volume numbers are better!

Blah blah, and so it goes

 

[es4m11]

Two guys I watch a lot of are guilty of it as well, Romo and Flacco. Both hold the ball too long at times looking to make plays when there is nothing there. Tyron Smith's sack numbers are a little inflated because of this.

 

[cdumler7]

Nothing special...back to back SB appearances IS special...I don't care what kind of DEF you have...your QB has to make some plays to win as many playoff games as this guy has won.

Great DEF...the DEF was already great before he got there...what did they win pre-Wilson?

No pressure...I'm not sure I follow you here...everyone in the NFL is playing under some kind of pressure...as a 3rd rd pick I'm sure he's put pressure on himself just to become the starter, and once you're a starting NFL QB, they all have pressure to perform.

$25 mil per...agreed.

You are right they are all under pressure. I think what he is talking about though is when you have a defense that averages giving up 15.9 points a game compared to one that is giving up 23.1 points per game there is a little more pressure on the QB with the worst defense to have to put up points in a game compared to the other of maybe it is more about not making the big mistake the cost the team. Again both have pressure but there are different levels of pressure.

 

[PDay8810]

They overall rank close to middle of the pack when you combine Pass and Run blocking according to PFF. They have been since 2012. The reason Wilson takes so many sacks is he is one of the worst in the NFL at the stat time from snap to throw. Heck on the plays that he is sacked he is the longest time in over 4 seconds between snap and sack compared to Phillip Rivers who his average on snap to when he was sacked is around 2.4 seconds. So the sack total is not all the OL's fault here.

Yes Sir! Serviceable to me is middle of the pack. Wilson holds the ball and people are around the line at the snap reading and reacting to the play