So we all agree then? Russell Wilson should make at least ONE more dollar than Luck?

[PDay8810]

Zone read complicates things significantly as well. With the limited and biased data to compare and little more than eyeballs to regress, it seems to me it's a pretty futile attempt to compare them. So instead, we're left with bashing the table shouting at each other with a Luck vs Wilson thread.

Wilson will produce just as many yards without Lynch!

Or, Luck has a better cast, of course his volume numbers are better!

Blah blah, and so it goes

I'm not bashing anyone. Already said Wilson was a league favorite of mine. Seattle fans have problems with a person picking Luck over Wilson...that's all

 

[Fountain City Blues]

I'm not bashing anyone. Already said Wilson was a league favorite of mine. Seattle fans have problems with a person picking Luck over Wilson...that's all

Didn't quote you for bashing. I am just critiquing the debate around Luck vs Wilson itself.

 

[PDay8810]

Didn't quote you for bashing. I am just critiquing the debate around Luck vs Wilson itself.

It's all good.
some seattle fans remain all seattle. I get that

 

[ATL96Steeler]

You are right they are all under pressure. I think what he is talking about though is when you have a defense that averages giving up 15.9 points a game compared to one that is giving up 23.1 points per game there is a little more pressure on the QB with the worst defense to have to put up points in a game compared to the other of maybe it is more about not making the big mistake the cost the team. Again both have pressure but there are different levels of pressure.

Oh, essentially he saying Wilson doesn't have the "I have to carry the team on my back" type pressure that say a Matt Ryan has.

I can buy that...he doesn't go into games thinking he has to put up 30 points or whatever, but he's got quite a few come from behind wins...kid seems to handle pressure moments well in general.

I think the biggest thing here is we've grown used to are the gaudy stats that Brees, Manning, Brady, etc put up. We associate that with being a great QB...RW is not that guy...he's not going to be a 5k passer more than likely thus some people don't see his value as clearly as others.

 

[cdumler7]

Oh, essentially he saying Wilson doesn't have the "I have to carry the team on my back" type pressure that say a Matt Ryan has.

I can buy that...he doesn't go into games thinking he has to put up 30 points or whatever, but he's got quite a few come from behind wins...kid seems to handle pressure moments well in general.

I think the biggest thing here is we've grown used to are the gaudy stats that Brees, Manning, Brady, etc put up. We associate that with being a great QB...RW is not that guy...he's not going to be a 5k passer more than likely thus some people don't see his value as clearly as others.

I can agree to a point. I do think crunch time when you need a play Wilson is one of the tops in the league. The overwhelming stat that sticks out to me though with Wilson and the Seahawks is that since Wilson took over any time the opposing team has scored over 24 points they have lost. That seems to be the magical number if you want to beat the Seahawks and considering quite a few teams in the league averaged that total I just still have some questions of if Wilson was on an average team and was the player a defense had to focus on above anybody else and he had to put up points because his defense was average at best how he would do. I still think he would find ways to win but I don't see him as a Super Bowl Champion or having gone to back to back Super Bowls. Obviously that takes a whole team working together to accomplish but again that is why saying because he has won a Super Bowl he is better than Luck makes no sense to me. Same with any QB in the league as truly winning the Super Bowl requires a whole team not just one great individual.

 

[redseat]

sure, pay the man... not our money... and don't all QBs have "high ceilings?"

 

[purguy12]

Nothing special...back to back SB appearances IS special...I don't care what kind of DEF you have...your QB has to make some plays to win as many playoff games as this guy has won.

Great DEF...the DEF was already great before he got there...what did they win pre-Wilson?

No pressure...I'm not sure I follow you here...everyone in the NFL is playing under some kind of pressure...as a 3rd rd pick I'm sure he's put pressure on himself just to become the starter, and once you're a starting NFL QB, they all have pressure to perform.

$25 mil per...agreed.

He didn't lead them. Their D and running game. He did not play well. Anybody that thinks he should be the highest paid is insane. Talent wise he isn't an top QB. He is good but nothing special to justify 20-25 mill

 

[ATL96Steeler]

I can agree to a point. I do think crunch time when you need a play Wilson is one of the tops in the league. The overwhelming stat that sticks out to me though with Wilson and the Seahawks is that since Wilson took over any time the opposing team has scored over 24 points they have lost. That seems to be the magical number if you want to beat the Seahawks and considering quite a few teams in the league averaged that total I just still have some questions of if Wilson was on an average team and was the player a defense had to focus on above anybody else and he had to put up points because his defense was average at best how he would do. I still think he would find ways to win but I don't see him as a Super Bowl Champion or having gone to back to back Super Bowls. Obviously that takes a whole team working together to accomplish but again that is why saying because he has won a Super Bowl he is better than Luck makes no sense to me. Same with any QB in the league as truly winning the Super Bowl requires a whole team not just one great individual.

24...If this were MLB, and you're the Hawks sitting in front of an arbitrator...I might throw that stat out there, but without seeing all of those games it's hard for me to comment on that other than this...if your offensive game plan is to win games 20-17 every week and a team puts up 30 on you one week...you're probably going to lose...the point here is idk how much of that to attribute to RW.

I hope I haven't said the RW is better than Luck...if I did, I stand corrected...he's accomplished more than Luck, largely because he's been on better teams.

I've said several times and I stand by this...RW and the Hawks are the perfect storm. He's probably more valuable to them than any other team in the league because of the style they play and the DEF. Could RW be successful on anther team? IMO yes, but the pool for his services as a FA may not be as large as what he and his agent think.

 

[DHoey]

and don't all QBs have "high ceilings?"

That's why I made a poll about it.

I'll admit, I got a little bothered by the higher ceiling comment and for that I apologize

 

[SonnyCID]

It's not as if Wilson doesn't play like he's under pressure to score points. Most Hawks games since he has been here have been uncomfortably close games that he scores when he needs to. He doesn't just lean on the defense and Lynch to win games. And if he does, they lean on him too. The year before he came, with Lynch and the 7the ranked defense went 7-9 in large part because they were 30th in TOP. Since Wilson, the Hawks average rank in TOP is 5. Don't try and tell me that they don't benefit from his ability to extend drives and take pressure off other units. Without Wilson the Hawks would have a top ten running game and defense, with him, they're the best.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

He didn't lead them. Their D and running game. He did not play well. Anybody that thinks he should be the highest paid is insane. Talent wise he isn't an top QB. He is good but nothing special to justify 20-25 mill

It's well documented that SEA won several games while gaining less than 200 yds passing so you're right...he didn't lead them in the stats category every game, but their OFC doesn't ask him to throw it 35 times a game...I hope you're not basing your comment on his stats alone...he's NOT the typical NFL QB.

Talent...I think you're grounded in a QB throwing for 300 yds with 3 TDs...to make it in the NFL at his size, you can argue that pound for pound he might be the most talented QB in the league. I'd be curious to see Ben, Rodgers, Brady, Manning...any of the these top shelf QBs...put them in RW's body...would any of these guys even be in the NFL?

It might happen, but you won't hear me say RW deserves to be the highest paid QB in the league...and imo SEA would be silly to pay him $25 mil per...but the market is the market...he's going to make $100 mil...it might not be $20-$25 mil per but it's going to be more than his stat line alone (other than wins) can justify. That's the same case with Kaep, Cam, Dalton.

I'm a RW fan...the kid has handled himself very well, and he's shown to be a keeper in this league, but I'm not carrying his jock...there are at least 10 QBs that I would take over him as a starter.

We actually agree more than we disagree on Wilson I think...but he is a winning QB in this league that makes plays...in this era that equals $100 mil.

 

[Broncosballer32]

I would love to know what the Seahawks defense has to do with the fact that Wilson's passer rating is much higher than Luck's.

I always love the fallacies that are used to describe the reasons. Irrelevancies, circular reasonings.

Russell Wilson has NOT been surrounded by as much talent as Luck has, even with Marshawn Lynch. I mean really. Wilson haters make it sound like Lynch is the greatest RB to ever put on a jockstrap. How many SB rings did he have, prior to Russell Wilson?

Wilson is a constant play maker. He finds all sorts ways to move the chains. He makes wise decisions usually. Yes, that includes the last SB, where that pass was not unwise. The call, was unwise. It was a great play by the DB and every once and a while you have to credit the DB. In that case, it was really all on the DB.

WIlson's WRs have not been great. Average at best. He gets sacked over twice as much as Luck. Luck's completion % is lack luster.

BTW, the Colts were actually an outstanding franchise for over a decade with the exception of ONE YEAR. They had very good skill position players. Their defense was not terrible, and has not been terrible since Luck was drafted.

Anyone thinking the Hawks ONLY won due to their defense have not been paying attention. That, is a lot of you apparently. For some reason, it seems like a lot of Cowboy fans. Interesting.

 

[Broncosballer32]

It's well documented that SEA won several games while gaining less than 200 yds passing so you're right...he didn't lead them in the stats category every game, but their OFC doesn't ask him to throw it 35 times a game...I hope you're not basing your comment on his stats alone...he's NOT the typical NFL QB.

Talent...I think you're grounded in a QB throwing for 300 yds with 3 TDs...to make it in the NFL at his size, you can argue that pound for pound he might be the most talented QB in the league. I'd be curious to see Ben, Rodgers, Brady, Manning...any of the these top shelf QBs...put them in RW's body...would any of these guys even be in the NFL?

It might happen, but you won't hear me say RW deserves to be the highest paid QB in the league...and imo SEA would be silly to pay him $25 mil per...but the market is the market...he's going to make $100 mil...it might not be $20-$25 mil per but it's going to be more than his stat line alone (other than wins) can justify. That's the same case with Kaep, Cam, Dalton.

I'm a RW fan...the kid has handled himself very well, and he's shown to be a keeper in this league, but I'm not carrying his jock...there are at least 10 QBs that I would take over him as a starter.

We actually agree more than we disagree on Wilson I think...but he is a winning QB in this league that makes plays...in this era that equals $100 mil.

You are a stats guy? Who cares about the yards. How many key first downs did they make? They are far more balanced. Plus, Wilson's INT to TD ratio is far better. His completion % is far better. He gets sacked far more frequently.

Here is a hint when it comes to the fantasy football stats that ignorant fans pay attention to in regards to QBs.

Top 10 most prolific passing offenses in the history of the NFL, only ONE won a SB. ONE. The 1999 Rams. That team, needed to survive that NFC championship against the Bucs, where they only scored one TD.

No, the pretty little passing offenses virtually always get figured out. Even Brady. His 5 best statistical seasons, he did not get it done. 3 of his 4 SB wins, he did not pass for 4000 yards nor 30 TDs in any of them.

Getting a clue yet about those little stats?

QBs that move chains in critical spots, and lacks turnovers is what you want. Surprised a Steelers fan does not know that. Must be under 20.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

You are a stats guy? Who cares about the yards. How many key first downs did they make? They are far more balanced. Plus, Wilson's INT to TD ratio is far better. His completion % is far better. He gets sacked far more frequently.

Here is a hint when it comes to the fantasy football stats that ignorant fans pay attention to in regards to QBs.

Top 10 most prolific passing offenses in the history of the NFL, only ONE won a SB. ONE. The 1999 Rams. That team, needed to survive that NFC championship against the Bucs, where they only scored one TD.

No, the pretty little passing offenses virtually always get figured out. Even Brady. His 5 best statistical seasons, he did not get it done. 3 of his 4 SB wins, he did not pass for 4000 yards nor 30 TDs in any of them.

Getting a clue yet about those little stats?

QBs that move chains in critical spots, and lacks turnovers is what you want. Surprised a Steelers fan does not know that. Must be under 20.

Well said but probably should've directed this to Purguy (poster I was responding to)...preaching to the choir here...btw...my oldest is 26, youngest 23.

 

[Broncosballer32]

Well said but probably should've directed this to Purguy (poster I was responding to)...preaching to the choir here...btw...my oldest is 26, youngest 23.

 

[cdumler7]

I would love to know what the Seahawks defense has to do with the fact that Wilson's passer rating is much higher than Luck's.

I always love the fallacies that are used to describe the reasons. Irrelevancies, circular reasonings.

Russell Wilson has NOT been surrounded by as much talent as Luck has, even with Marshawn Lynch. I mean really. Wilson haters make it sound like Lynch is the greatest RB to ever put on a jockstrap. How many SB rings did he have, prior to Russell Wilson?

Wilson is a constant play maker. He finds all sorts ways to move the chains. He makes wise decisions usually. Yes, that includes the last SB, where that pass was not unwise. The call, was unwise. It was a great play by the DB and every once and a while you have to credit the DB. In that case, it was really all on the DB.

WIlson's WRs have not been great. Average at best. He gets sacked over twice as much as Luck. Luck's completion % is lack luster.

BTW, the Colts were actually an outstanding franchise for over a decade with the exception of ONE YEAR. They had very good skill position players. Their defense was not terrible, and has not been terrible since Luck was drafted.

Anyone thinking the Hawks ONLY won due to their defense have not been paying attention. That, is a lot of you apparently. For some reason, it seems like a lot of Cowboy fans. Interesting.

Well just a few stats to think about. First off the Seahawks defense is both helped and helps Wilson. Wilson helps them in the run game helping to shorten games. At the same time Wilson is helped in he doesn't get into many shoot outs as he hasn't shown he can win in shootouts yet. Seattle gave up 15.9 points per game while Indy gave up 23.1. So we are talking a whole touchdown difference in what Luck has to do with the offense to make up for the issues with the defense. That is a lot more pressure to score and because they throw so much more it makes defenses know the pass is coming a lot more than for that of Wilson.

Next is the idea that Wilson has had nobody to pass to...We have talked about this in another thread but with how well Tate has done in Detroit one has to start thinking he was a lot better than his numbers showed in Seattle. He isn't a top-tier receiver but he is in that next group. Heck he put up top-10 numbers this past year for a WR.

The Sack rate is also ridiculous. Wilson had the longest time from snap to sack time of any QB in the league. It means he is holding onto the football longer than any QB in the league. Luck by comparison finished middle of the pack in that stat. I have already shown that PFF shows Seattle actually has the better OL than that of Indy and has since Luck and Wilson came into the league.

Now realize I like Wilson and think he is a great QB and deserves to get paid but I also don't understand why we have to tear down one or both players to raise up the other. Now I realize I did that here a little towards Wilson but it is to show more just some of the fallacies of your arguments here and also that all QB's do have weaknesses. For Luck he forces things way too often leading to a larger number of turnovers. He also needs to work more on getting rid of the football a bit quicker as he is better than Wilson but still only average in this area. The top tier QB's are some of the best at getting rid of the football in a hurry.

 

[redseat]

That's why I made a poll about it.

I'll admit, I got a little bothered by the higher ceiling comment and for that I apologize

Didn't see poll, my bad

 

[DHoey]

Didn't see poll, my bad

On a different thread

 

[Tech_God]

He didn't lead them. Their D and running game. He did not play well. Anybody that thinks he should be the highest paid is insane. Talent wise he isn't an top QB. He is good but nothing special to justify 20-25 mill

Dumbest post ever. Did not play well? Are you talking about his whole career? Maybe a bad game in this three years? Have you even seen the man play other than his interception in the SB?

 

[redseat]

On a different thread

I see