Shump & JR to Cleveland

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Wild Turkey, in the interest of fairness, I did find one reputable outlet that agrees with your take on the trade.

Sheridan is off his rocker about a few things. But, he does have credibility




New York Knicks president Phil Jackson could not have done much worse Monday night in dealing away Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith to the Cleveland Cavaliers in a three-way trade that netted the Knicks three non-guaranteed contracts and a second-round draft pick in 2019.

Phil Jackson KnicksWe’ve all heard of selling low, but this? This was a gift to the struggling Cleveland Cavaliers, who just became the first team to lose in Philadelphia all season. And also a gift to the Oklahoma City Thunder, who have not had a wing scorer at the two-guard position since James Harden was wearing blue three years ago. They get one now in Dion Waiters.

The Knicks got out from Smith’s $6.5 million player option for next season, giving them about $30 million in salary cap space. But to get such a small return on a former first-round pick, Shumpert, and a former Sixth Man of the Year, Smith, is a head-scratcher. Nobody was willing to give up a first-round pick in the 20s for either of those guys, much less both of them?


Read more at Phil Jackson and Knicks got fleeced in three-team trade with Thunder, Cavs

 

[wildturkey]

Ummm, simple mathematics?

They are not getting Love, Gasol, Aldridge.

But, Monroe, Reggie Jackson, Butler, Kawhi types?

* restricted fa*

Yes.

They have 33 million in open cap.

Max for those guys are 15 and change.

Then they have mid-level, biannual..etc, etc

It's all over the net, not sure why you haven't seen it.


Now that the Knicks have waved the white flag on this season with Monday’s moves, they’re expected to have an estimated $33 million in salary-cap space this summer. They also hold a first-round pick in this year’s draft, and with the worst record in the league, would have a 25 percent chance to land the No. 1 pick in the NBA lottery.


Top 20 offseason targets for Knicks fans to salivate over | New York Post


With Smith's $6.4 million player option for next year now off their books, the Knicks are looking at having in excess of $30 million in cap space next summer. Smith gets a $533,135 trade kicker bonus as part of the deal.

J.R. Smith, Dion Waiters involved in 3-team trade between New York Knicks, Cleveland Cavaliers, Oklahoma City Thunder - ESPN

As far as the cap hold, how is it better to renounce him, and get nothing, than to trade him to another Team to rid themselves of a bad contract?

OH,ok. You're misdirecting there using the contract definition of max guy. You never specified that before. When I'm talking about a max player, and what all these articles are talking about with max players, they're referring to players like Melo that are making in the 18 to 20 mil range. LA, Love, and Gasol are going to be eligible for close to those ranges. That's what people talk about when they say the Knicks need a max guy. With the cap hold stuff there's two things, it reads like you're misunderstanding how cap holds works and also that this trade (which netted them nothing of value) could still get cap space if they renounced his rights. You acted like if they kept him, that the cap hold would be such a big deal to their cap space. It's not.

I'm confused as to what you're trying to say here but I'm not talking about what the Cavs got, I'm talking about what the Knicks could have done and didn't get. And its not just based on my opinion. They've turned down better offers. And the Lin trade has little if anything to do with this situation. Houston was desperate to make room to sign Chris Bosh so the Lakers fleeced them. This is a different scenario. You're too hung up on JR Smith to see how its botched asset management.



/QUOTE]

...So, letting Pau walk for Nothing, to preserve cap space is different than trading Shump, for nothing, to preserve cap space?

The Lin trade was just an example of a team sweetening the pot to get a deal done.

Same with Richard Jefferson.

It's pretty simple.

No, it's not the same. The Lakers had hopes of resigning Pau, that's why he wasn't traded.

Wild Turkey, in the interest of fairness, I did find one reputable outlet that agrees with your take on the trade.

Sheridan is off his rocker about a few things. But, he does have credibility




New York Knicks president Phil Jackson could not have done much worse Monday night in dealing away Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith to the Cleveland Cavaliers in a three-way trade that netted the Knicks three non-guaranteed contracts and a second-round draft pick in 2019.

Phil Jackson KnicksWe’ve all heard of selling low, but this? This was a gift to the struggling Cleveland Cavaliers, who just became the first team to lose in Philadelphia all season. And also a gift to the Oklahoma City Thunder, who have not had a wing scorer at the two-guard position since James Harden was wearing blue three years ago. They get one now in Dion Waiters.

The Knicks got out from Smith’s $6.5 million player option for next season, giving them about $30 million in salary cap space. But to get such a small return on a former first-round pick, Shumpert, and a former Sixth Man of the Year, Smith, is a head-scratcher. Nobody was willing to give up a first-round pick in the 20s for either of those guys, much less both of them?


Read more at Phil Jackson and Knicks got fleeced in three-team trade with Thunder, Cavs

Good for him. Zach Lowe essentially said the same thing.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

OH,ok. You're misdirecting there using the contract definition of max guy. You never specified that before.misunderstanding how cap holds works and also that this trade (which netted them nothing of value) could still get cap space if they renounced his rights. You acted like if they kept him, that the cap hold would be such a big deal to their cap space. It's not.

No.

They got Round-Shoulders Ray Felton and Amare

They should avoid Gasol, even if he is a great fit in the Triangle and target Monroe.

They shouldn't even glance in Brook-en Lopez's direction.

So many quality players will be available this Summer.

The Lakers, Celtics and Knicks might not get any of the top 3 * Love, Aldridge, M Gasol*.

But, everyone else will be in play.

Their chances increase dramatically considering they have room for 2 max salaries and will still have room to add quality role players.

Anyone who thinks adding an extra 12 million * 6.4 of Smith's contract and 6 mil cap hold for Shump* is not significant can't see the forest for the trees.

Are you sure you understand how a cap hold works? That money is not available until they renounce him. If they do that, they lose him for nothing...which you seem to think is a big deal for a guy they didn't plan to keep.

Trading him to the Cavs to get them to take Smith was the better move.

Kill two birds * contracts * with one stone.

 

[ducky]

Ummm, simple mathematics?

They are not getting Love, Gasol, Aldridge.

But, Monroe, Reggie Jackson, Butler, Kawhi types?

* restricted fa*

Yes.

They have 33 million in open cap.

Max for those guys are 15 and change.

Then they have mid-level, biannual..etc, etc

It's all over the net, not sure why you haven't seen it.

We can bump this thread next August when the Knick's completely struck out in FA because they couldn't get multiple players to commit to coming to NYC together.

This is what you are failing to see. This gives the Knick's options should they get extremely lucky this offseason. But the chances of that happening are slim to none.

The only way the Knick's should use a penny of this newly freed up cap space is if they can get Gasol or Aldridge and another player agree to sign there at the same time. And that likely isn't happening. If they use this space to sign a guy like Monroe/Jackson/ect, it essentially means that they can't play in the FA market the following year.

This is a great move for the Knick's if you are rooting for them to be a middling 500 team team that is one and done in the playoffs and only if the Eastern conference stays as bad as it has been the last couple of years.

If you are rooting for the Knick's to become a legit competitor, you realize that they aren't in a position to be forfeiting assets like Shump just to free themselves of a bad contract like Smith. They should have moved Shump for more than this when they could have (and they could have gotten a future 1st for him), just eaten the Smith contract with the understanding that any cap space they have next season is going to go towards acquiring bad contracts with a draft pick (like the Lin deal) because they need to get as many draft assets now while they are in the beginning of a massive rebuild.

Liking this deal for the Knick's is just a refusal to look realistically where they are at as a franchise in terms of rebuilding the roster and the big hill they have to climb if they hope to put together a championship contender anytime in the next 5 years or so. They can't be giving up players like Shump that could have turned into a future asset just to rid themselves of an unwanted contract. The reality of the situation is that they are likely going to be looking for bad contracts to eat next season in exchange for draft picks as it is simply because they aren't likely at all to find a combo of players that is worth spending their cap space on this coming offseason. And they only get one shot to sign the right combo of FA's and it just seems so unlikely that that magic moment is going to present itself this coming offseason with the shape of that roster as it is. And the situations that will present themselves this offseason to me look like fool's gold and a way to trap the franchise in mediocrity at best once again.

 

[wildturkey]

OH,ok. You're misdirecting there using the contract definition of max guy. You never specified that before.misunderstanding how cap holds works and also that this trade (which netted them nothing of value) could still get cap space if they renounced his rights. You acted like if they kept him, that the cap hold would be such a big deal to their cap space. It's not.

Are you sure you understand how a cap hold works? That money is not available until they renounce him. If they do that, they lose him for nothing...which you seem to think is a big deal for a guy they didn't plan to keep.

Trading him to the Cavs to get them to take Smith was the better move.

Kill two birds * contracts * with one stone.

I don't see why you're scratching your head. We were talking about the Knicks carving out space for max guys. When people talk max guys whether its fans on message boards, writers in articles, talking heads on TV, they're talking Lebrons, Melos, Loves, Gasols, etc. Players in the 18 to 20+ mil range. However, the technical definition of a "max guy" in the NBA is giving the maximum allotment of cash a player is eligible for. So a guy coming off a rookie deal, the maximum he can get is like 15 mil. He's "maxed" but in the general vernacular of every day discussion, people don't view them as a max player. So we were discussing about how they had room for 1 max guy and then later on you tossed out they had room for two, etc. It's misdirecting because you never mentioned you were talking about those lower tier of "max" guys.

Back to the cap hold stuff, you acted like its vital to move him because the cap hold is too difficult to deal with. It's not. It's easily waived. I never said that it was a good move to do so, just that its easy to deal with. Yeah, if they kept him and just renounced his rights, they get nothing in return. You know what else gets them nothing in return? THIS DEAL. Which is exactly the point of why its not a good deal. They were due a boon of cap space regardless. They dumped an asset to gain 7 million of cap space. They didn't get anything of value back. Not a low salary player to develop, not a 1st round pick, not an immediate 2nd rounder to improve the team in the next year or so. Nothing. When you could possibly have 25+ mil in cap space before dumping Smith, gaining that extra 7 mil isn't that big of a deal. It gives them no serious flexibility. Just a tad more to pursue a bench player. The kinds of players you get for 7 mil? JR Smith types. Guys that have one skillset that are better suited coming off the bench. That's why its not a good deal for the Knicks. All these people that say it is are just taking surface level examination of the deal. They see the Knicks side and say "Well, I guess the team could use cap space. This deal gets some cap space. That must make it a good deal, right?". But for the ones that take the time to dive into it further, the deal doesn't become all that appealing.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

OH,ok. You're misdirecting there using the contract definition of max guy. You never specified that before.misunderstanding how cap holds works and also that this trade (which netted them nothing of value) could still get cap space if they renounced his rights. You acted like if they kept him, that the cap hold would be such a big deal to their cap space. It's not.



I don't see why you're scratching your head. We were talking about the Knicks carving out space for max guys. When people talk max guys whether its fans on message boards, writers in articles, talking heads on TV, they're talking Lebrons, Melos, Loves, Gasols, etc. Players in the 18 to 20+ mil range. However, the technical definition of a "max guy" in the NBA is giving the maximum allotment of cash a player is eligible for. So a guy coming off a rookie deal, the maximum he can get is like 15 mil. He's "maxed" but in the general vernacular of every day discussion, people don't view them as a max player. So we were discussing about how they had room for 1 max guy and then later on you tossed out they had room for two, etc. It's misdirecting because you never mentioned you were talking about those lower tier of "max" guys.

Back to the cap hold stuff, you acted like its vital to move him because the cap hold is too difficult to deal with. It's not. It's easily waived. I never said that it was a good move to do so, just that its easy to deal with. Yeah, if they kept him and just renounced his rights, they get nothing in return. You know what else gets them nothing in return? THIS DEAL. Which is exactly the point of why its not a good deal. They were due a boon of cap space regardless. They dumped an asset to gain 7 million of cap space. They didn't get anything of value back. Not a low salary player to develop, not a 1st round pick, not an immediate 2nd rounder to improve the team in the next year or so. Nothing. When you could possibly have 25+ mil in cap space before dumping Smith, gaining that extra 7 mil isn't that big of a deal. It gives them no serious flexibility. Just a tad more to pursue a bench player. The kinds of players you get for 7 mil? JR Smith types. Guys that have one skillset that are better suited coming off the bench. That's why its not a good deal for the Knicks. All these people that say it is are just taking surface level examination of the deal. They see the Knicks side and say "Well, I guess the team could use cap space. This deal gets some cap space. That must make it a good deal, right?". But for the ones that take the time to dive into it further, the deal doesn't become all that appealing.

LMFAO!!!

I'm not them.

I have stated, repeatedly, in several threads that the guys the Knicks and Lakers should target are Monroe, Jackson and maybe Dragic.

If you assumed, that's on you.

Seriously, it's like banging your head on a brick wall.

If you can't understand why having 33 mil is better than having 26 than nothing I say can help you.

They didn't want JR and gave Shump away to clear his cap number.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

We can bump this thread next August when the Knick's completely struck out in FA because they couldn't get multiple players to commit to coming to NYC together.

Cool..I'll be here.

 

[wildturkey]

LMFAO!!!

I'm not them.

I have stated, repeatedly, in several threads that the guys the Knicks and Lakers should target are Monroe, Jackson and maybe Dragic.

If you assumed, that's on you.

Sure, it could be on me. Maybe I overlooked it in this thread. But why is it on me to remember what you've said in multiple threads? Who says I've read them all? I'm in this thread, talking about this subject, going off what's posted in this thread. I'm not tracking down other posts to get people's definitions who a true max guy is.

Seriously, it's like banging your head on a brick wall.

If you can't understand why having 33 mil is better than having 26 than nothing I say can help you.

They didn't want JR and gave Shump away to clear his cap number.

You're the only one not getting it. You're doing the surface level examination thing looking at cap space as the end all be all for the Knicks. This goes beyond cap space. It's asset management. It's getting the best possible return for what you're dealing. The Knicks failed in this because they got nada back. No return assets to help in their rebuild. Not picks (the 2019 2nd rounder is too far off to be of significance), not a low salary player to evaluate. All they managed to do is carve out a marginal amount of cap space. The value of that cap space isn't that great because A) They were already due a lot of space and B) The space cleared is only enough for decent rotation type player. You don't throw away assets to clear something that small. Here's something to make you understand this better. You remember all those trades you listed as examples earlier of how its the same situation? The Jefferson deal, Lin deal, etc? All of those teams needed to clear cap space because they were over the cap going into the next season so they had to dump an asset to clear space to sign a free agent. That space was valuable to them because they didn't have it. The Knicks though? They HAVE space and still dumped an asset to rid themselves of a contract that isn't even a burden. They're in a different situation from those other teams. They blew an asset to gain something they already had.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Sure, it could be on me. Maybe I overlooked it in this thread. But why is it on me to remember what you've said in multiple threads? Who says I've read them all? I'm in this thread, talking about this subject, going off what's posted in this thread. I'm not tracking down other posts to get people's definitions who a true max guy is.

/QUOTE]

OH,ok. You're misdirecting there using the contract definition of max guy. You never specified that before.





Again, I can't slam my head against this wall anymore.

Agree to disagree

 

[DJ Fieri]

Irving and JR Smith have combined for 36 FGA's. Love has just 10.

He's gone imo.

 

[Leking2246]

So far waiters is shooting 35% for the thunder and 27% from 3

Meanwhile jr has had a few 29 point games and he wasn't even the point of the trade

Discuss

 

[Shanemansj13]

Love is overrated. I caught the hype but the guy doesn't hustle, shoots 3's all game and rarely goes inside, and plays no D.

 

[bksballer89]

Jr looks good...very motivated. Would be stupid to start him when shump is healthy because the cavs bench is hot trash

 

[gordontrue]

Love is overrated. I caught the hype but the guy doesn't hustle, shoots 3's all game and rarely goes inside, and plays no D.

Personally I think a lot is on the coaching at this point. I'm hoping Blatt starts to figure it out.


European big men are traditionally used as outside shooters to keep the lane clear for penetration and kick-outs. Love is a good outside shooter... so at first glance he's perfect for a European style offense...

But you lose a lot of what Love brings to the table if you aren't posting him up at least some of the time in your offense. He's an underrated passer and would be good at finding LeBron and Kyrie on cuts or kick-outs from the post. And obviously he can score from the post as well.


I can't remember which analyst said it, but Love is basically being used as a Mike Miller. That is ok for small stretches... but if that's all he does its a waste.

 

[gordontrue]

Jr looks good...very motivated. Would be stupid to start him when shump is healthy because the cavs bench is hot trash

Definitely. They need more defense in the starting lineup and more offense on the bench.

Shump should start and JR should be a 6th man.

He's a perfect 6th man cause you don't necessarily want him jacking up tons of shots when LeBron and Kyrie and Love are all on the floor... but when 2 of those guys are on the bench... you need him as a shot maker.

 

[WiggyRuss]

We can bump this thread next August when the Knick's completely struck out in FA because they couldn't get multiple players to commit to coming to NYC together.

This is what you are failing to see. This gives the Knick's options should they get extremely lucky this offseason. But the chances of that happening are slim to none.

The only way the Knick's should use a penny of this newly freed up cap space is if they can get Gasol or Aldridge and another player agree to sign there at the same time. And that likely isn't happening. If they use this space to sign a guy like Monroe/Jackson/ect, it essentially means that they can't play in the FA market the following year.

This is a great move for the Knick's if you are rooting for them to be a middling 500 team team that is one and done in the playoffs and only if the Eastern conference stays as bad as it has been the last couple of years.

If you are rooting for the Knick's to become a legit competitor, you realize that they aren't in a position to be forfeiting assets like Shump just to free themselves of a bad contract like Smith. They should have moved Shump for more than this when they could have (and they could have gotten a future 1st for him), just eaten the Smith contract with the understanding that any cap space they have next season is going to go towards acquiring bad contracts with a draft pick (like the Lin deal) because they need to get as many draft assets now while they are in the beginning of a massive rebuild.

Liking this deal for the Knick's is just a refusal to look realistically where they are at as a franchise in terms of rebuilding the roster and the big hill they have to climb if they hope to put together a championship contender anytime in the next 5 years or so. They can't be giving up players like Shump that could have turned into a future asset just to rid themselves of an unwanted contract. The reality of the situation is that they are likely going to be looking for bad contracts to eat next season in exchange for draft picks as it is simply because they aren't likely at all to find a combo of players that is worth spending their cap space on this coming offseason. And they only get one shot to sign the right combo of FA's and it just seems so unlikely that that magic moment is going to present itself this coming offseason with the shape of that roster as it is. And the situations that will present themselves this offseason to me look like fool's gold and a way to trap the franchise in mediocrity at best once again.

this is the only person i have ever read who has a handle on the cap as and how its managed as well as i do....

he is absolutely right in that there is no quick fix- even if they get 2 big time guys to come in to join melo they still have absolutely zero assets to add around those guys.

there is absolutely no 1 season fix out there for the knicks short of signing LeBron and a great big guy......

you have to go the boston route first- the route the Cavs and OKC went- asset collection- so youhave the assets to put guys around your studs once you get them

if not all you end up with is what the Cavs hadthefirst time around- or what the Knicks had with Melo Amare and Chandler....


kudos to you good sir....i sincerely mean that

 

[WiggyRuss]

Love is overrated. I caught the hype but the guy doesn't hustle, shoots 3's all game and rarely goes inside, and plays no D.

in his defense it has recently come to light that he has a bad back that has severely restricted his movement and jump shot.....

things are beginning to come into focus a bit more---- love and lebron both had injuries that severely restricted them from being themselves- and even kyrie had about a 2 week period where a knee injury stopped him

everyone getse injuries- but with a new coach, a bunch of injuries, and roster turnover like crazy- it has come into focus a little more just how the Cavs got themselves into that prorated stretch of poop.

 

[Leking2246]

Cavs beat the clippers without love...another good game from jr smith

Leking with a beast game

If lebron didn't miss 10 games 25% of the season and they went 5-5 they would be on track for 52 wins even with all thr new pieces, trades and coaches

 

[DJ Fieri]

Waiters is makkng that trade look very good for OKC. But, they have a lot of SG's now.

 

[DJ Fieri]

in his defense it has recently come to light that he has a bad back that has severely restricted his movement and jump shot.....

things are beginning to come into focus a bit more---- love and lebron both had injuries that severely restricted them from being themselves- and even kyrie had about a 2 week period where a knee injury stopped him

everyone getse injuries- but with a new coach, a bunch of injuries, and roster turnover like crazy- it has come into focus a little more just how the Cavs got themselves into that prorated stretch of poop.

Recently? He's always bated injuries since he's been in the league.

-Signed a Bruins fan