Shump & JR to Cleveland

[ducky]

What value do you think JR Smith and Shump have?

Nobody was giving them jack for a broken one way player and a lockerroom cancer.

You are clearly over valuing those two players.

Ps. Having an extra 6mil in cap is nothing to sneeze at nor is a 20mil savings in luxury tax.

Phil misplayed his hand. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that out. He could have gotten an actual asset last summer for Shumpert rather than nothing.

Now all he has is the hopes that he finds a FA that is actually worth using up this cap space going forward. If you have watched teams with cap space the last couple of years, you know that hoping doesn't make it so.

Trading is more about timing than anything else and Phil timed this about as poorly as he could have.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Phil misplayed his hand. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that out. He could have gotten an actual asset last summer for Shumpert rather than nothing.

Now all he has is the hopes that he finds a FA that is actually worth using up this cap space going forward. If you have watched teams with cap space the last couple of years, you know that hoping doesn't make it so.

He could have gotten a late 1st rounder LAST SEASON. But, Shump got hurt.....AGAIN.

Don't get me wrong, the guy can play.

But, they were not keeping him and basically gave him to the Cavs just so they would take Smith too.

It's not Rocket Science.

Win.


What a weird night. Dion Waiters began Monday evening listed in the starting lineup in his hometown of Philadelphia, and ended it as a member of the Oklahoma City Thunder. J.R. Smith is now on the Cavaliers. The Knicks actually won a trade, which is the most improbable part of all. It’s still hard to believe last night’s three-team deal actually happened, but it actually makes a lot of sense for everyone involved—although it’s not without its risks.

For the Knicks, there’s no real downside. Phil Jackson wanted J.R. Smith gone for cultural reasons, and he was able to find a taker without taking back any guaranteed money. Losing Iman Shumpert isn’t ideal, but it was basically clear at this point that he wasn’t interested in re-signing with the Knicks this summer, and the Knicks weren’t really set on bringing him back. He’s the best player involved in this trade, but if the decision had already been made that he wasn’t a part of their future, giving him up is a small price to pay to unload Smith.

Making sense of the Dion Waiters trade, for everyone involved | ProBasketballTalk

 

[ducky]

Teams who get nothing for their talent don't win trades in my mind. If you want to look at it a different way, that is up to you.

Cap space is overrated. The only way having more cap space heading into next offseason works for the Knicks is if they get Gasol and another solid player. He is the only player available this coming offseason that is worth committing this much cap space to long term. IMO Gasol to NYC isn't going to happen (gasol is going to have 5 or 6 better options). So the only thing this cap space accomplishes is saving their owner some money. I look at the NBA as a fan not an owner so saving money is a loss IMO.

And the one thing having this cap space will do is test Phil's patience. If he commits his cap space this offseason to lesser players like a combo of Rondo and Monroe, he will have made a big mistake and basically doomed the Knicks to 3-7 years of nothing more than mediocrity. Phil should have meditated on this one longer IMO. He should have known he is in the year 1 of a 3 or 4 year rebuild and played his hand accordingly. That should have involved getting somthing in return for his limited assets other than a little bit of cap space he likely won't be in a position to use right away.

 

[anotheridiot]

Shump and JR will just expedite Cleveland getting a new coach. If James wont buy into their coach, now way shump and Jr will.

I am just confused on this whole thing. People are saying Cleveland is in a win now situation. When LeBron went there, he admitted it was gonna take a while. How good might have Irving, LeBron and Wiggins been?

Lebron wants the coach gone and runs his mouth that he might leave to expedite the process. Now there will be three complaining about the coach.

 

[trojanfan12]

does anyone have a sorrier collection of teams than DJ right now?

Lakers, Raiders and UCLA has to be the worst combination on this thread....

probably the worst NFL team, definitely a bottom 5 NBA team, and UCLA has nothing going on what so ever....

anyone else out there can rival that ineptitude?

Yeah, those teams don't have near the championships of the Browns, Cavs and Indians.

 

[trojanfan12]

Lmao!

How could they pass on Saccharine * coughs * Sacre?

Ramona Shelburne: Lakers were among teams that had tried to get Waiters. Cle wasn't looking for just salary relief tho & Shump more valuable than Sacre Twitter @ramonashelburne

Sacre isn't too bad. He sure as hell isn't going to be any franchise changer. But he's an okay big who will come in, bang bodies, grab a few rebounds and hit an occasional shot (which the Cavs could use), but Shumpert is definitely more valuable.

As for Waiters, based on what I've read about him, I'd rather have Sacre.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Detroit got nothing for Josh Smith, Charlotte couldn't get rid of Lance Stephenson, Rondo got traded on the cheap. Why should Phil have gotten more for JR and Shump? No one expected the Knicks to be this bad, when they only won 5 games through the first 30 or so, Phil decided to blow it up.

 

[trojanfan12]

The Cavs are doing what they did last time. Grabbing anything they can to appease LeBron. Is Donyell Marshall still out there?

Maybe Shaq has a few games left in him?

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Detroit got nothing for Josh Smith, Charlotte couldn't get rid of Lance Stephenson, Rondo got traded on the cheap. Why should Phil have gotten more for JR and Shump? No one expected the Knicks to be this bad, when they only won 5 games through the first 30 or so, Phil decided to blow it up.

Exactly.

This is not Phil inheriting Jordan/Pippen or Kobe/Shaq.

This is him trying to build a Team while the cupboard is bare.

At 5-30, It's obvious that these mental midgets couldn't grasp the concept of the nuances of the triangle.

Since Phil is dead set on running it, he has to find players that can.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Teams who get nothing for their talent don't win trades in my mind. If you want to look at it a different way, that is up to you.

Cap space is overrated. The only way having more cap space heading into next offseason works for the Knicks is if they get Gasol and another solid player. He is the only player available this coming offseason that is worth committing this much cap space to long term. IMO Gasol to NYC isn't going to happen (gasol is going to have 5 or 6 better options). So the only thing this cap space accomplishes is saving their owner some money. I look at the NBA as a fan not an owner so saving money is a loss IMO.

And the one thing having this cap space will do is test Phil's patience. If he commits his cap space this offseason to lesser players like a combo of Rondo and Monroe, he will have made a big mistake and basically doomed the Knicks to 3-7 years of nothing more than mediocrity. Phil should have meditated on this one longer IMO. He should have known he is in the year 1 of a 3 or 4 year rebuild and played his hand accordingly. That should have involved getting somthing in return for his limited assets other than a little bit of cap space he likely won't be in a position to use right away.

Yeah, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Neither of those guys were even fringe Allstars.

They only have 5 wins. So, not sure how much more losing a headcase and a guy that's lives on the injured reserve list will hurt

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

Exhibit A, B, C and D of why Phil wanted JR gone...

Steve Popper @StevePopper 1 minute ago
Miss him. RT @Dave McMenamin: JR Smith on how he'll play with the Cavs without knowing the playbook: "My motto is, 'When in doubt, shoot the ball'"



With Kyrie returning and JR set to make his debut, Kevin Love will have to kill somebody to get the basketball.

 

[Cyder]

Exactly.

This is not Phil inheriting Jordan/Pippen or Kobe/Shaq.

This is him trying to build a Team while the cupboard is bare.

At 5-30, It's obvious that these mental midgets couldn't grasp the concept of the nuances of the triangle.

Since Phil is dead set on running it, he has to find players that can.

Regardles sof grasping the triangle, Phil added a few more guys that never played defense in their lives to a bunch of guys who have never played D in their lives. The only guy who played D was Shump so they had to get rid of him.

 

[Cyder]

Yeah, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Neither of those guys were even fringe Allstars.

They only have 5 wins. So, not sure how much more losing a headcase and a guy that's lives on the injured reserve list will hurt

They were lucky they found someone to take JR. Unfortunately they had to send Shump in order for the Cavs to take the salary even though it isn't all that much.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

If the Knicks get the #1 pick then everyone will be saying Phil's a genius.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

They were lucky they found someone to take JR. Unfortunately they had to send Shump in order for the Cavs to take the salary even though it isn't all that much.

Agreed.

Shump was the sacrificial lamb to rid themselves of that Cancer.

This is nothing new.

Hell, does anyone actually believe that the Lakers wanted to pay Jeremy Lin 15 mil this Season?

* 8 mil against the cap*

No.

They took him as a placeholder who will come of the books at Season end because the Rockets gave them another first rounder.

 

[Beengay fudgepackers]

What value do you think JR Smith and Shump have?

Nobody was giving them jack for a broken one way player and a lockerroom cancer.

You are clearly over valuing those two players.

Ps. Having an extra 6mil in cap is nothing to sneeze at nor is a 20mil savings in luxury tax.

Shumpert ain't a one way player. He's not a great offensive star, but he can shoot, create when he has to, and defend. I think if he can stay healthy for Cleveland, he would be worth giving up waiters himself.

 

[wildturkey]

What value do you think JR Smith and Shump have?

Nobody was giving them jack for a broken one way player and a lockerroom cancer.

You are clearly over valuing those two players.

Ps. Having an extra 6mil in cap is nothing to sneeze at nor is a 20mil savings in luxury tax.

He could have gotten a late 1st rounder LAST SEASON. But, Shump got hurt.....AGAIN.

Don't get me wrong, the guy can play.

But, they were not keeping him and basically gave him to the Cavs just so they would take Smith too.

It's not Rocket Science.

Win.


What a weird night. Dion Waiters began Monday evening listed in the starting lineup in his hometown of Philadelphia, and ended it as a member of the Oklahoma City Thunder. J.R. Smith is now on the Cavaliers. The Knicks actually won a trade, which is the most improbable part of all. It’s still hard to believe last night’s three-team deal actually happened, but it actually makes a lot of sense for everyone involved—although it’s not without its risks.

For the Knicks, there’s no real downside. Phil Jackson wanted J.R. Smith gone for cultural reasons, and he was able to find a taker without taking back any guaranteed money. Losing Iman Shumpert isn’t ideal, but it was basically clear at this point that he wasn’t interested in re-signing with the Knicks this summer, and the Knicks weren’t really set on bringing him back. He’s the best player involved in this trade, but if the decision had already been made that he wasn’t a part of their future, giving him up is a small price to pay to unload Smith.

Making sense of the Dion Waiters trade, for everyone involved | ProBasketballTalk

All of that is misguided or just wrong. I'm not overvaluing them as players. The Knicks themselves TURNED DOWN, not couldn't find, turned down better offers for Shump as late as this past summer so obviously teams saw he had value. He was an asset. He had value and Phil displayed poor asset management by sending him out to rid himself of JR Smith, who isn't really such a cancer that everyone makes him out to be. For one, his contract wasn't a huge albatross like Josh Smith. It's survivable. And secondly, yes, his shot selection often stinks but he's been good for teams in the past (including the Knicks) when they have a coach that knows what they are doing. You gave up an asset for to rid yourself of a problem that isn't really that big of a problem. This isn't even about JR being a problem. They dealt them for nothing to straight up tank. By dumping them, they go from a 65% chance of having a top 4 pick to like an 85% chance. Once Phil decided to tank, he just took the first offer he got.

And these numbers that keep getting floated around in all these articles are misleading and or just wrong. This deal didn't get the Knicks 20+ mil in cap space and taxes. From what I see, either the writers are confusing the Knicks total cap space available with this deal or the writers are getting this number by adding up all the values over the length of the entire contracts for both men if they kept them through 2016. The latter has little to no impact on the summer of 2015, which all these people keep trying to make the link to. Yes, the Knicks will have close to 30 mil in cap space this summer (2015) but the vast majority of that (20+ mil) comes from Stoudamire and Bargnani's contracts expiring. This specific deal nets them roughly 7 mil. So they go from having cap space for a max player to having cap space for a max player and a 6th or 7th man because quality role players/non all star starters usually range in 10 to 12 mil. As for the luxury tax, if the numbers I've looked at are accurate, the Knicks are still over the tax even after the trade. They go from about 4 mil over to 2 mil. If rumors are true and they still somehow convince the Thunder to give them Reggie Jackson (doubtful) or any other player like that, they go right back up to that 4 mil over line.

If they got Reggie Jackson in that deal like it was first (and inaccurately) reported, then it would be a win. They got a future asset there. If they got OKC's 1st rounder instead of it going to Cleveland, that's a win. They got a nice asset in return. If they got a 2nd rounder for this year and not 4 years from now, that's a win. Heck, if they convinced Cleveland or OKC to throw in someone like Matt Dellavedova or Jeremy Lamb its a minor win because at least you get someone cheap that could develop into a rotation piece. But they didn't do that.They turned two players into the ability to pay one bench player. That's not a win. It's just poor asset management.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Teams who get nothing for their talent don't win trades in my mind. If you want to look at it a different way, that is up to you.

Cap space is overrated. The only way having more cap space heading into next offseason works for the Knicks is if they get Gasol and another solid player. He is the only player available this coming offseason that is worth committing this much cap space to long term. IMO Gasol to NYC isn't going to happen (gasol is going to have 5 or 6 better options). So the only thing this cap space accomplishes is saving their owner some money. I look at the NBA as a fan not an owner so saving money is a loss IMO.

And the one thing having this cap space will do is test Phil's patience. If he commits his cap space this offseason to lesser players like a combo of Rondo and Monroe, he will have made a big mistake and basically doomed the Knicks to 3-7 years of nothing more than mediocrity. Phil should have meditated on this one longer IMO. He should have known he is in the year 1 of a 3 or 4 year rebuild and played his hand accordingly. That should have involved getting somthing in return for his limited assets other than a little bit of cap space he likely won't be in a position to use right away.

In this new salary cap era it is not over-rated at all. You need to get with the times.

 

[Mecca of the “B” Team]

All of that is misguided or just wrong. I'm not overvaluing them as players. The Knicks themselves TURNED DOWN, not couldn't find, turned down better offers for Shump as late as this past summer so obviously teams saw he had value. He was an asset. He had value and Phil displayed poor asset management by sending him out to rid himself of JR Smith, who isn't really such a cancer that everyone makes him out to be. For one, his contract wasn't a huge albatross like Josh Smith. It's survivable. And secondly, yes, his shot selection often stinks but he's been good for teams in the past (including the Knicks) when they have a coach that knows what they are doing. You gave up an asset for to rid yourself of a problem that isn't really that big of a problem. This isn't even about JR being a problem. They dealt them for nothing to straight up tank. By dumping them, they go from a 65% chance of having a top 4 pick to like an 85% chance. Once Phil decided to tank, he just took the first offer he got.

And these numbers that keep getting floated around in all these articles are misleading and or just wrong. This deal didn't get the Knicks 20+ mil in cap space and taxes. From what I see, either the writers are confusing the Knicks total cap space available with this deal or the writers are getting this number by adding up all the values over the length of the entire contracts for both men if they kept them through 2016. The latter has little to no impact on the summer of 2015, which all these people keep trying to make the link to. Yes, the Knicks will have close to 30 mil in cap space this summer (2015) but the vast majority of that (20+ mil) comes from Stoudamire and Bargnani's contracts expiring. This specific deal nets them roughly 7 mil. So they go from having cap space for a max player to having cap space for a max player and a 6th or 7th man because quality role players/non all star starters usually range in 10 to 12 mil. As for the luxury tax, if the numbers I've looked at are accurate, the Knicks are still over the tax even after the trade. They go from about 4 mil over to 2 mil. If rumors are true and they still somehow convince the Thunder to give them Reggie Jackson (doubtful) or any other player like that, they go right back up to that 4 mil over line.

If they got Reggie Jackson in that deal like it was first (and inaccurately) reported, then it would be a win. They got a future asset there. If they got OKC's 1st rounder instead of it going to Cleveland, that's a win. They got a nice asset in return. If they got a 2nd rounder for this year and not 4 years from now, that's a win. Heck, if they convinced Cleveland or OKC to throw in someone like Matt Dellavedova or Jeremy Lamb its a minor win because at least you get someone cheap that could develop into a rotation piece. But they didn't do that.They turned two players into the ability to pay one bench player. That's not a win. It's just poor asset management.

Wrong based on what?

So far, all your arguments are based simply on your personal opinion of what YOU think the Knicks could have/ should have done.

Explain to me how the Cavs getting Shump to eat Smith's deal is any different than the Lakers eating Lin's contract to get an extra 1st rounder from Houston.

Should Houston have held out for a better deal?

No.

Because Lin's contract is toxic and nobody would touch it without incentive.

Or....How's about the Lakers letting Pau walk for nothing?

I'm sure you are aware of why they did that...to have cap space for 2015...Just like the Knicks

This is not new.

Utah ate Richard Jeffersons contract for the Warriors for a 1st rounder for gosh sakes...

The only difference being the Cavs got a player * Shump* instead of a pick.

Standard business

 

[DJ Fieri]

Yeah, those teams don't have near the championships of the Browns, Cavs and Indians.