Series Thread: Sharks Vs Blues

[Ties5o11]

Thornton has been the best forward for the Sharks this series. He's controlled the play and been flat out dominant at both ends of the ice against whatever forward and D pairing Hitch throws out against him yet still being called a PO underachiever by Sharks fans. All I can do is LOL.

Come on, how many times have you seen the Sharks lines 2-4 get completely shut out in a series, only for the fans to blame Jumbo for the series loss?

Or have the other goalie turn into a brick wall while ours tursn to swiss cheese. The culprit: Thornton.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Thornton has been the best forward for the Sharks this series. He's controlled the play and been flat out dominant at both ends of the ice against whatever forward and D pairing Hitch throws out against him yet still being called a PO underachiever by Sharks fans. All I can do is LOL.

You get it.

Just blows my mind some of the flack he gets. Just makes me wonder if people actually watch? Just check a random box score? Hockey isn't like baseball or basketball where you can get a good idea how a guys game was from the box score.

A guy who puts up 80 regular season points on a great regular season team and now possible stanly cup finalist......is a role player and team cancer? Wow I'd love to have a few of those.

Cooch has been fantastic these playoffs and had a nice career up til 27, but do people realize his season this year was much more "role player" than Joe?(for the record I'm not callin couture a role player either)

Thornton and Marleau are in their mid 30s obvious some younger vets are gonna make a jump as big time players and leaders...it doesn't diminish Joe or Patty. It's why this year is different, now we have a bunch of veteran talent.

And that pass Thornton made to Hertl last night? That's a Jumbo dime, role players don't make those kinda pass...star players don't even.

 

[sjrules99]

Agreed that jumbo has been amazing this series. Also agreed that it's tough to win without a strong supporting cast. That said, jumbo and patty both have not had the supporting cast and have also not had the ability to elevate their own games at crunch time. Also, Jumbo relies on others to score, so if the linemates dont score, the team falls. As dominant as jumbo has been, he has one goal in the last 8 games, and was pointless in 4 of the first 8 games. PM has just one assist in this series, and was shut out in 4 of the first 7 games of the PO's. obviously, those two are very good players, sometimes even the best on the team (obviously true in several past playoffs), but unlike keith, toews, and kane, or doughty and kopitar, they could never carry a team and frequently disappeared for big stretches. Neither has a single goal in the WCF. That's exactly the same as previous years where both dont score, but this year, its hertl, donskoi, or pavs, cooch, burns, or whoever who is picking up the slack, while in previous years, the team would be down 3-0 now and the magnifying glass would go straight to the goalless duo.

This year is similar. PM is so-so, but jumbo is playing great. That said, if Hertl doesnt finish, the sharks dont score. Jumbo relies on Hertl there. This year, the rest of the team is finishing, and playing spectacularly in all three zones. Jumbo and patty are getting tons of help. They dont have to be good every day. They dont have to elevate their game or play consistently. They can disappear for half the games, and the team still wins.

Basically, Jumbo and patty are and have always been good players, but just not good enough to lead a team to a cup. This year, they are just 2 of a deep avalanche of sharks producing, and it's exactly the role they need. their TOI is down a little, keeping them fresher, and that too exactly whats needed.

My hats off to Deboer, who has figured out a great system, put guys in a great position to succeed, kept his cool and helped the team overcome lots of adversity. Right now, his hiring looks like genius. Hats off to dougie too. Hopefully they can finish the job!

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Agreed that jumbo has been amazing this series. Also agreed that it's tough to win without a strong supporting cast. That said, jumbo and patty both have not had the supporting cast and have also not had the ability to elevate their own games at crunch time. Also, Jumbo relies on others to score, so if the linemates dont score, the team falls. As dominant as jumbo has been, he has one goal in the last 8 games, and was pointless in 4 of the first 8 games. PM has just one assist in this series, and was shut out in 4 of the first 7 games of the PO's. obviously, those two are very good players, sometimes even the best on the team (obviously true in several past playoffs), but unlike keith, toews, and kane, or doughty and kopitar, they could never carry a team and frequently disappeared for big stretches. Neither has a single goal in the WCF. That's exactly the same as previous years where both dont score, but this year, its hertl, donskoi, or pavs, cooch, burns, or whoever who is picking up the slack, while in previous years, the team would be down 3-0 now and the magnifying glass would go straight to the goalless duo.

This year is similar. PM is so-so, but jumbo is playing great. That said, if Hertl doesnt finish, the sharks dont score. Jumbo relies on Hertl there. This year, the rest of the team is finishing, and playing spectacularly in all three zones. Jumbo and patty are getting tons of help. They dont have to be good every day. They dont have to elevate their game or play consistently. They can disappear for half the games, and the team still wins.

Basically, Jumbo and patty are and have always been good players, but just not good enough to lead a team to a cup. This year, they are just 2 of a deep avalanche of sharks producing, and it's exactly the role they need. their TOI is down a little, keeping them fresher, and that too exactly whats needed.

My hats off to Deboer, who has figured out a great system, put guys in a great position to succeed, kept his cool and helped the team overcome lots of adversity. Right now, his hiring looks like genius. Hats off to dougie too. Hopefully they can finish the job!

What??

Can't you say the same about Hertl relying on Jumbo for that goal? That's hockey. Unless you go end to end unassisted guys all rely on each other for goals.

Hertl does not score that goal if Joe doesn't make an amazing pass(or if Elliot makes an easy save)

Marleau over the last decade is in the tops of all play off goal scorers. And aren't the Sharks considered early round chokers? So it's not like he's padding his totals playing 20+ games each playoff appearance.

This team is making a push now because they have legit depth everywhere. The difference is this year when Pavelski and burns are the age of Thornton and Marleau back in 2011 they have Thornton and Patty to lean on and Cooch at 27 and a vet like Ward.

Back when Jumbo and Patty lead teams their support was Pavs and Cooch at points in their careers that were experienced similar to Donkey and Hertl.

It's extra depth and added goal scoring. That's how Kane and Toews found success. It wasn't Kane, toews and a bunch of blind guys.

 

[Cbrower91]

Thornton has been the best forward for the Sharks this series. He's controlled the play and been flat out dominant at both ends of the ice against whatever forward and D pairing Hitch throws out against him yet still being called a PO underachiever by Sharks fans. All I can do is LOL.

Agreed without Thornton, Pavelski isn't a 3rd of the player he is today

 

[Cbrower91]

Agreed that jumbo has been amazing this series. Also agreed that it's tough to win without a strong supporting cast. That said, jumbo and patty both have not had the supporting cast and have also not had the ability to elevate their own games at crunch time. Also, Jumbo relies on others to score, so if the linemates dont score, the team falls. As dominant as jumbo has been, he has one goal in the last 8 games, and was pointless in 4 of the first 8 games. PM has just one assist in this series, and was shut out in 4 of the first 7 games of the PO's. obviously, those two are very good players, sometimes even the best on the team (obviously true in several past playoffs), but unlike keith, toews, and kane, or doughty and kopitar, they could never carry a team and frequently disappeared for big stretches. Neither has a single goal in the WCF. That's exactly the same as previous years where both dont score, but this year, its hertl, donskoi, or pavs, cooch, burns, or whoever who is picking up the slack, while in previous years, the team would be down 3-0 now and the magnifying glass would go straight to the goalless duo.

This year is similar. PM is so-so, but jumbo is playing great. That said, if Hertl doesnt finish, the sharks dont score. Jumbo relies on Hertl there. This year, the rest of the team is finishing, and playing spectacularly in all three zones. Jumbo and patty are getting tons of help. They dont have to be good every day. They dont have to elevate their game or play consistently. They can disappear for half the games, and the team still wins.

Basically, Jumbo and patty are and have always been good players, but just not good enough to lead a team to a cup. This year, they are just 2 of a deep avalanche of sharks producing, and it's exactly the role they need. their TOI is down a little, keeping them fresher, and that too exactly whats needed.

My hats off to Deboer, who has figured out a great system, put guys in a great position to succeed, kept his cool and helped the team overcome lots of adversity. Right now, his hiring looks like genius. Hats off to dougie too. Hopefully they can finish the job!

it's no coinendince that Coutures line starred taking off once Marleau was moved back to the wing, not to mention Marleau was centering damn near rookies for half the season on the 3rd line

 

[sjrules99]

What??

Can't you say the same about Hertl relying on Jumbo for that goal? That's hockey. Unless you go end to end unassisted guys all rely on each other for goals.

Hertl does not score that goal if Joe doesn't make an amazing pass(or if Elliot makes an easy save)

Marleau over the last decade is in the tops of all play off goal scorers. And aren't the Sharks considered early round chokers? So it's not like he's padding his totals playing 20+ games each playoff appearance.

This team is making a push now because they have legit depth everywhere. The difference is this year when Pavelski and burns are the age of Thornton and Marleau back in 2011 they have Thornton and Patty to lean on and Cooch at 27 and a vet like Ward.

Back when Jumbo and Patty lead teams their support was Pavs and Cooch at points in their careers that were experienced similar to Donkey and Hertl.

It's extra depth and added goal scoring. That's how Kane and Toews found success. It wasn't Kane, toews and a bunch of blind guys.

Yep, agreed with you on virtually everything. Hertl needs jumbo just as jumbo needs hertl. I was just mentioning that jumbo is much more of a one-dimensional player in terms of offense (possess and pass, but doesnt score), so while he sets up his linemates brilliantly and consistently, its them not jumbo who has to finish. kane toews kopitar and the like often finish themselves.

Also, jumbo and patty have had a supporting cast in the past. On D, boyle, blake, ehrhoff as well as pickles and up front cheech, clowy, seto, heater, and many others. The sharks have had depth issues many times in the past, no doubt, but they have also had reasonable depth at times and still fallen flat. Look at the last time they played the boos in 2012. jumbo led the team and was effective, but patty had no points for the series and was a minus. The two of them have not come close to what doughty and kopitar or kane/toews/keith have done, leading by example, and coming up big in the big moments.

this year is much more like the Bruins team of 2011. One large dominant two-way defenseman (Chara-->Burns), several impact young players, 4 lines deep, and solid goalie. the 'stars" arent standing far in front and its a truly team effort. the big two dont have to be the big two. The team is stifling defensively. The goaltending is awesome and cool. The depth guys are contributing regularly. Jumbo and patty just have to play as they do every year, namely good but not lights out, and the result is totally different.

 

[sjrules99]

the other piece is leadership an chemistry. Deboer has done great, but one other major knock on the big two is leadership. PM has arep for half-assing, which JR still spouts and we all see regularly. JT has had leadership issues as well. Both had prolonged captaincies rife with issues.

Pavs has come in and proven exactly what I always knew. He is a winner, a leader, and a perfect captain. He leads by example. He never takes a game, let alone a shift, off. He takes a beating in the tough areas every game. He makes gigantic plays scoring key goals with consistency and he deflects praise to others while accepting blame. He is the consummate captain, and I think the chemistry we see is in very large part due to his leadership, and putting pavs ahead of the big two in the pecking order, allowing the big two to avoid interviews after losses, and just play their game.

 

[MrFlyingV]

Doc Emrick - has he ever called a game in San Jose? I don't think so. He is the lead NBC sports NHL guy for years and I don't think he has ever set foot in the Shark tank. Embarrassing. But if they make the final I guess he'll have to finally pay a visit to one of the best NHL venues and fan bases in the league finally. Anyways he is overrated and has the annoying trait of talking down to the audience at times like they are seeing a hockey game for the 1st time...especially when he does Olympics. I am sure he is disappointed that Chicago is not playing any random east cost team. Same with Olczyk.

 

[MrFlyingV]

Too bad I missed last night's game and I can thank the idiots at United Airlines for that. No more missed games though. Clearing the schedule. It appears it was good.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Yep, agreed with you on virtually everything. Hertl needs jumbo just as jumbo needs hertl. I was just mentioning that jumbo is much more of a one-dimensional player in terms of offense (possess and pass, but doesnt score), so while he sets up his linemates brilliantly and consistently, its them not jumbo who has to finish. kane toews kopitar and the like often finish themselves.

Also, jumbo and patty have had a supporting cast in the past. On D, boyle, blake, ehrhoff as well as pickles and up front cheech, clowy, seto, heater, and many others. The sharks have had depth issues many times in the past, no doubt, but they have also had reasonable depth at times and still fallen flat. Look at the last time they played the boos in 2012. jumbo led the team and was effective, but patty had no points for the series and was a minus. The two of them have not come close to what doughty and kopitar or kane/toews/keith have done, leading by example, and coming up big in the big moments.

this year is much more like the Bruins team of 2011. One large dominant two-way defenseman (Chara-->Burns), several impact young players, 4 lines deep, and solid goalie. the 'stars" arent standing far in front and its a truly team effort. the big two dont have to be the big two. The team is stifling defensively. The goaltending is awesome and cool. The depth guys are contributing regularly. Jumbo and patty just have to play as they do every year, namely good but not lights out, and the result is totally different.

O yeah those teams weren't worthless by any means I mean they earned the choke label for reason due to having great regular seasons so clearly talent was there.

But again guys like Clowe and Gooch were role player goal scorers and bring physicality. Heater/Havlat types were already on their declines.

We never really had good players in their primes with Thornton/Marleau or vets like those two now.

Here we have 3 studs in their primes with heavy experienced having two grizzled vets for support 1 of which put up 80 pts. And then add in a bunch of young talent that still has some experience(Hertl for example).

In the past there were a lot of pieces but flaws. Now we have leaders in their primes with help from guys both young and old. It's the perfect combo.

 

[MrFlyingV]

O yeah those teams weren't worthless by any means I mean they earned the choke label for reason due to having great regular seasons so clearly talent was there.

But again guys like Clowe and Gooch were role player goal scorers and bring physicality. Heater/Havlat types were already on their declines.

We never really had good players in their primes with Thornton/Marleau or vets like those two now.

Here we have 3 studs in their primes with heavy experienced having two grizzled vets for support 1 of which put up 80 pts. And then add in a bunch of young talent that still has some experience(Hertl for example).

In the past there were a lot of pieces but flaws. Now we have leaders in their primes with help from guys both young and old. It's the perfect combo.

Dan Boyle was on some of those teams and he was pretty quite good as an offensive defenseman. He had a cup in Tampa. Too bad Cheechoo fell off the map too early in his career. Rocket Richard winner to AHL fodder in two years and he was with Thornton too. Now we see maybe TMac and Baby Jay Woodcroft weren't the best coaching choices for those prime Sharks.

Obscure fact of the day. Jay Woodcroft has an IMDB page:

Jay Woodcroft - IMDb

 

[MrFlyingV]

O yeah those teams weren't worthless by any means I mean they earned the choke label for reason due to having great regular seasons so clearly talent was there.

But again guys like Clowe and Gooch were role player goal scorers and bring physicality. Heater/Havlat types were already on their declines.

We never really had good players in their primes with Thornton/Marleau or vets like those two now.

Here we have 3 studs in their primes with heavy experienced having two grizzled vets for support 1 of which put up 80 pts. And then add in a bunch of young talent that still has some experience(Hertl for example).

In the past there were a lot of pieces but flaws. Now we have leaders in their primes with help from guys both young and old. It's the perfect combo.

Doug Wilson's drafting didn't help those teams either. Who can forget Milan Michalek, Hall of Famer Lukas Kaspar, Steve Bernier, Mike Morris, Devin Setoguchi, Ty Wishart. Dougie didn't fill the cupboard with decent young talent for the core then.

 

[Stackem]

the other piece is leadership an chemistry. Deboer has done great, but one other major knock on the big two is leadership. PM has arep for half-assing, which JR still spouts and we all see regularly. JT has had leadership issues as well. Both had prolonged captaincies rife with issues.

Pavs has come in and proven exactly what I always knew. He is a winner, a leader, and a perfect captain. He leads by example. He never takes a game, let alone a shift, off. He takes a beating in the tough areas every game. He makes gigantic plays scoring key goals with consistency and he deflects praise to others while accepting blame. He is the consummate captain, and I think the chemistry we see is in very large part due to his leadership, and putting pavs ahead of the big two in the pecking order, allowing the big two to avoid interviews after losses, and just play their game.

Ahhh... the age old argument. The Thornton/PM backers will never concede that they were the issue, while the other side will point to history and results to claim they were. Its Dems and Republicans stuff.

I am with rules on this, and always have been. Many folks stated early on (and way, way, way back) that Joe couldn't deliver, nor had the leadership skills to be an effective captain. The organization finally came around, and I couldn't be happier to see Pavs thriving and the team playing up to is potential vs continuously underachieving. It was the right thing to do give Thornton an A. The core is shifting, Pavs, Burns, Jones are taking the mantle, and Thornton can just dish great passes without having to be the sole focal point of the team. All in all, its a good thing. Every one wins (well, lets hope they continue too..)

 

[Cbrower91]

Doug Wilson's drafting didn't help those teams either. Who can forget Milan Michalek, Hall of Famer Lukas Kaspar, Steve Bernier, Mike Morris, Devin Setoguchi, Ty Wishart. Dougie didn't fill the cupboard with decent young talent for the core then.

He also drafted Pavelski late, couture and pickles 2nd rnd, Braun, Hertl, signed donkey and melker, Tierny, and Wingels.

Michalek was having a fantastic career before injuries derailed his career. Kaspar wasn't bad, if Seto didn't become a drunk he would've been good. Bernier has been to the stanely cup final as a major contributor.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

He also drafted Pavelski late, couture and pickles 2nd rnd, Braun, Hertl, signed donkey and melker, Tierny, and Wingels.

Michalek was having a fantastic career before injuries derailed his career. Kaspar wasn't bad, if Seto didn't become a drunk he would've been good. Bernier has been to the stanely cup final as a major contributor.

Mike Morris would have been the best of all of them had it not been for the car accident.

 

[MrFlyingV]

He also drafted Pavelski late, couture and pickles 2nd rnd, Braun, Hertl, signed donkey and melker, Tierny, and Wingels.

Michalek was having a fantastic career before injuries derailed his career. Kaspar wasn't bad, if Seto didn't become a drunk he would've been good. Bernier has been to the stanely cup final as a major contributor.

Lukas Kaspar 2 total goals in his NHL career. I would consider that a total bust for a 1st rounder. Dougie has done much better the last few years. That is why they are where they are at now. It was the players I mentioned that hindered the Sharks in early prime years of Thornton/Marleau era. None of them lived up to expectations as 1st round picks.

 

[Cbrower91]

Lukas Kaspar 2 total goals in his NHL career. I would consider that a total bust for a 1st rounder. Dougie has done much better the last few years. That is why they are where they are at now. It was the players I mentioned that hindered the Sharks in early prime years of Thornton/Marleau era. None of them lived up to expectations as 1st round picks.

he never got a clear cut chance

 

[Cbrower91]

Ahhh... the age old argument. The Thornton/PM backers will never concede that they were the issue, while the other side will point to history and results to claim they were. Its Dems and Republicans stuff.

I am with rules on this, and always have been. Many folks stated early on (and way, way, way back) that Joe couldn't deliver, nor had the leadership skills to be an effective captain. The organization finally came around, and I couldn't be happier to see Pavs thriving and the team playing up to is potential vs continuously underachieving. It was the right thing to do give Thornton an A. The core is shifting, Pavs, Burns, Jones are taking the mantle, and Thornton can just dish great passes without having to be the sole focal point of the team. All in all, its a good thing. Every one wins (well, lets hope they continue too..)

supporting cast is everything, Brian Campbell was right the team never did enough to help Joe

 

[Cmon_WTF]

he never got a clear cut chance

Kaspar never earned the chance. The guy had all the skill in the world but never put in the effort to make them count. He had all the tools to be a star at the NHL level but never found the toolbox to put them all together.