Second cup of Coffee Talk

[jstewismybastardson]

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

I see your point, but the punishment to a business for refusing to innovate and keep pace is often bankruptcy, as it should be. Build it better or lose business, unless you can get politicians to tell you you don't *have* to build it better. See Chevy and Ford and their pushing of regulations stopping high quality European cars from being sold in the states. And I don't see how linking it to de-regulation is preposterous. Because it is deregulation. You are lessening the regulations for one particular group.

The building in question went through a renovation that included all new kitchens, a complete re-fit of the heating and ventilation system AND completely re-skinning the outside of the building (in a flammable material, as it turned out). I am not a construction expert, but it seems to me that re fitting an entire heating and ventilation system would not add terribly significant costs to add some water pipes at the same time.

My understanding is only the bottom 4 floors were worked on in terms of the interior. Replacing the entire HVAC system would've necessitated people leaving their homes for weeks.

Further, it's important to remember this is council (ie: government) housing. The business that was cheap was the local council.

the bold is the key

A lot of crap I've seen written is blaming not only the cladding panels but the fact there was an air space in the cladding system that allowed the fire to travel faster. News flash: every cladding system on earth has an air space between the insulation and the cladding. It's there so water and humidity can escape.

If the fire started internally, the fire burned from the inside out meaning the substrate wall (in this case concrete, very old concrete that probably doesn't have a fire resistance rating above 1 hour) likely caught fire first and the cladding probably just started to fall off.

 

[forty_three]

My understanding is only the bottom 4 floors were worked on in terms of the interior. Replacing the entire HVAC system would've necessitated people leaving their homes for weeks.

Further, it's important to remember this is council (ie: government) housing. The business that was cheap was the local council.

That's interesting, I hadn't heard that the interior upgrades were limited.

But it should probably noted that if only four floors were upgraded, only 4 floors survived...

 

[jstewismybastardson]

A lot of crap I've seen written is blaming not only the cladding panels but the fact there was an air space in the cladding system that allowed the fire to travel faster. News flash: every cladding system on earth has an air space between the insulation and the cladding. It's there so water and humidity can escape.

If the fire started internally, the fire burned from the inside out meaning the substrate wall (in this case concrete, very old concrete that probably doesn't have a fire resistance rating above 1 hour) likely caught fire first and the cladding probably just started to fall off.

are there not inflammable alternatives to the insulation they used under the cladding? some sort of fire blocking? The cladding didnt just fall off ... the place went up like a christmas tree

the fact they used largely flammable (cheaper ?) insulation makes you question the rationale for doing this exterior refurbishment ... which "No Ragrets" kid was talking about in the video out there ... this ...

Grenfell Tower flammable cladding was added to make the building look better for wealthy residents, says MP

 

[dash]

lol

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

are there not inflammable alternatives to the insulation they used under the cladding? some sort of fire blocking? The cladding didnt just fall off ... the place went up like a christmas tree

the fact they used largely flammable (cheaper ?) insulation makes you question the rationale for doing this exterior refurbishment ... which "No Ragrets" kid was talking about in the video out there ... this ...

Grenfell Tower flammable cladding was added to make the building look better for wealthy residents, says MP

So I did some digging and I managed to find the exact product used for both the cladding and insulation.

The panels used are Reynobond-branded aluminum and polystyrene bonding agent. The bonding agent is infused with semi-rigid insulation, and the product has both a Class "A" fire rating in the States as well as per the Canadian National Building Code (https://www.arconic.com/aap/north_a...tional_Building_Code_of_Canada_Fire_Tests.pdf).

The actual wall insulation, the stuff that is fastened just beyond the vapour barrier against the wall of the structure, is Celotex RS5000. This product isn't sold here far as I can tell (I use insulations all the time and have never heard of it) and their spec is as per British standards but under "Surface Spread of Flames" they have it listed as "Class 0". A search for what this certification means brought up the following:

Class 1 – Protects your surface from the spread of flames.

Class 0 – Protects your surface from the spread of flames AND limits the amount of heat released from the surface during a fire.

I'm not with the office of the fire marshal but I am very familiar with construction products and fire ratings. To me, these materials would not have fed a fire and would rather either stop its spread or, as it appears here, be overwhelmed by the ferocity of it.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

I'm not with the office of the fire marshal but I am very familiar with construction products and fire ratings. To me, these materials would not have fed a fire and would rather either stop its spread or, as it appears here, be overwhelmed by the ferocity of it.

its an understatement to say the material didnt do well against this fire

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

its an understatement to say the material didnt do well against this fire

Bigly.

 

[Darkstone42]

are there not inflammable alternatives to the insulation they used under the cladding? some sort of fire blocking? The cladding didnt just fall off ... the place went up like a christmas tree

the fact they used largely flammable (cheaper ?) insulation makes you question the rationale for doing this exterior refurbishment ... which "No Ragrets" kid was talking about in the video out there ... this ...

Grenfell Tower flammable cladding was added to make the building look better for wealthy residents, says MP

Inflammable means the same thing as flammable. Inflame means ignite, in this context, so inflammable means able to be ignited. I believe you're looking for nonflammable.

English is a weird language.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

See, this is why those people who yell "FAKE NEWS" sometimes have a point.

London, and the UK, likely has a sprinkler requirement in all new high-rises. I'm sure they've had it at least since the 80s, if not earlier. This building was designed in the 60s and built in the early 70s, likely pre-dating the amended code and exempt from the regulation.

What happened to prompt this response from the Tory minister is a push to mandate that buildings undergoing any renovations must include the retrofitting of a sprinkler system as a part of that renovation. A lovely idea, except it would add unbelievable costs to any renovation and would almost certainly deter building owners from renovating at all, to the point where they'd just let the building become inhospitable and allow it to be demolished, which would mean displacing residents (most of whom are likely lower-income). The article saying the Tory minister is "anti-sprinkler" and then linking it to de-regulation is preposterous. It's as no-win a situation as you can get. Fire safety retrofits have been political hot potatoes in basically every large city. Painting this guy as some villain is pretty unfair.

I see your point, but the punishment to a business for refusing to innovate and keep pace is often bankruptcy, as it should be. Build it better or lose business, unless you can get politicians to tell you you don't *have* to build it better. See Chevy and Ford and their pushing of regulations stopping high quality European cars from being sold in the states. And I don't see how linking it to de-regulation is preposterous. Because it is deregulation. You are lessening the regulations for one particular group.

The building in question went through a renovation that included all new kitchens, a complete re-fit of the heating and ventilation system AND completely re-skinning the outside of the building (in a flammable material, as it turned out). I am not a construction expert, but it seems to me that re fitting an entire heating and ventilation system would not add terribly significant costs to add some water pipes at the same time.

Kind of agree with some of both. The building being built in the 60s highlights the need for proper regulation. They didn't have it then and this is the result. We should not be peeling back existing regulations. Linking it to a current politician is tenuous at best though.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Inflammable means the same thing as flammable. Inflame means ignite, in this context, so inflammable means able to be ignited. I believe you're looking for nonflammable.

English is a weird language.

lol my bad ... i even follow merriam webster on twitter and they were shaking people down for making this error this week lmao

Flammable vs. Inflammable

 

[Comeds]

Inflammable means the same thing as flammable. Inflame means ignite, in this context, so inflammable means able to be ignited. I believe you're looking for nonflammable.

English is a weird language.

Its like famous and infamous. The both mean the same thing, except maybe infamous means a little more famous because they are in famous.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

SO MUCH WINNING!

 

[jstewismybastardson]

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

The Trump presidency has been a boon to the law industry, this is undeniable.

 

[DragonfromTO]

are there not inflammable alternatives to the insulation they used under the cladding? some sort of fire blocking? The cladding didnt just fall off ... the place went up like a christmas tree

the fact they used largely flammable (cheaper ?) insulation makes you question the rationale for doing this exterior refurbishment ... which "No Ragrets" kid was talking about in the video out there ... this ...

Grenfell Tower flammable cladding was added to make the building look better for wealthy residents, says MP

It's incredibly disappointing to me that there were multiple responses to your post and none of them linked this

 

[KennyBanyeah]

SO MUCH WINNING!

And yes those are Russian dolls.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

No ragrets kid

 

[jstewismybastardson]

 

[KennyBanyeah]