Game Thread: Rockets Vs Lakers Oct 28, 2014

[LALakersboy24.7]

 

[RobToxin]

 

[wildturkey]

Ugly start. The scary thing about it is it could have easily been a lot worse. Houston's ball movement flummoxed LA and led to a lot of good shots that Houston just missed. Had they made them, it easily could have been a 30 point loss. LA didn't defend well as a team at all. Looked like they were playing more straight up man instead of defending more space and utilizing switches and rotations. It led to a lot of ball and player chasing which led to a lot of fouls after the players got beat.

Offense was hamstrung and was exactly the type of nightmare scenario I'm talking about when Bryon Scott says he only want ten 3s a game. Since they aren't shooting 3s by design, there's no spacing. So Houston packed the paint on defense and took away all driving lanes. That left only contested midrange shots, a low percentage shot.LA shot a ton of them and is a good reason for why the Lakers struggled to score for so long. It's essential to have that spacing for a functional offense. You have to be shooting more 3s to generate that space. You don't have to shoot 30 a game but it has to be more than 10. The threat of a 3 is all that's needed to open up the court. Otherwise, every team will be more than happy to do what Houston did. It's one game but if those are the philosophies this team is going to employ, get ready for season with many many results like this one.

 

[OutlawImmortal]

Ugly start. The scary thing about it is it could have easily been a lot worse. Houston's ball movement flummoxed LA and led to a lot of good shots that Houston just missed. Had they made them, it easily could have been a 30 point loss. LA didn't defend well as a team at all. Looked like they were playing more straight up man instead of defending more space and utilizing switches and rotations. It led to a lot of ball and player chasing which led to a lot of fouls after the players got beat.

Offense was hamstrung and was exactly the type of nightmare scenario I'm talking about when Bryon Scott says he only want ten 3s a game. Since they aren't shooting 3s by design, there's no spacing. So Houston packed the paint on defense and took away all driving lanes. That left only contested midrange shots, a low percentage shot.LA shot a ton of them and is a good reason for why the Lakers struggled to score for so long. It's essential to have that spacing for a functional offense. You have to be shooting more 3s to generate that space. You don't have to shoot 30 a game but it has to be more than 10. The threat of a 3 is all that's needed to open up the court. Otherwise, every team will be more than happy to do what Houston did. It's one game but if those are the philosophies this team is going to employ, get ready for season with many many results like this one.

I see what you're saying Wild, but it's not like the Lakers have a crew of knock down shooters being held back either.

 

[trojanfan12]

I see what you're saying Wild, but it's not like the Lakers have a crew of knock down shooters being held back either.

Exactly. I don't know why people are so stuck on this 3's bullshit. It's a pretty stupid criticism. The Lakers don't have any true 3 point shooters, yet people are saying they need to shoot more 3's as if doing more of something a team isn't real good at is going to somehow make them better.

 

[wildturkey]

You guys aren't grasping what 3s mean to offense. It's not just the point value, it's the space they create. Statistically, it's been proven that you're better off shooting a 3 than a midrange 2. Teams hit midrange twos only slightly higher percentage than 3 pt shots BUT the extra point value of the 3 makes up the difference. So you end up with a higher points per possession value by taking the extra step back than versus shooting the 2. Played out over the course of a game, that PPP value ends up being 8 to 12 pts a game depending on how many you shoot. That's a significant increase.

So you scheme them into your offense, not just the top or the arc or the wing, but everywhere. Corners, wings, top; especially the corners. Now the defense has to respect the shot and stretches itself out, thus opening up space for the offense to operate via drives, passes, player movement, etc. The entire playbook is opened up. This is basketball 101. But what LA showed in game 1 and throughout the preseason is backwards. They aren't spacing up for 3s. They're running two man games, isolations, and post ups all towards the middle of the floor. Defenses recognize it and just clog the lane knowing LA isn't trying to space them out.

Plus, they do have guys that can hit 3s at a respectable level, some at a pretty good clip. Enough to where they'd be a threat the defenses have to respect and that's all that matters here. Get the defense to respect them, and the space opens up. But the space will never be there if you're not trying. You're just making things more difficult for yourself

 

[trojanfan12]

You guys aren't grasping what 3s mean to offense. It's not just the point value, it's the space they create. Statistically, it's been proven that you're better off shooting a 3 than a midrange 2. Teams hit midrange twos only slightly higher percentage than 3 pt shots BUT the extra point value of the 3 makes up the difference. So you end up with a higher points per possession value by taking the extra step back than versus shooting the 2. Played out over the course of a game, that PPP value ends up being 8 to 12 pts a game depending on how many you shoot. That's a significant increase.

So you scheme them into your offense, not just the top or the arc or the wing, but everywhere. Corners, wings, top; especially the corners. Now the defense has to respect the shot and stretches itself out, thus opening up space for the offense to operate via drives, passes, player movement, etc. The entire playbook is opened up. This is basketball 101. But what LA showed in game 1 and throughout the preseason is backwards. They aren't spacing up for 3s. They're running two man games, isolations, and post ups all towards the middle of the floor. Defenses recognize it and just clog the lane knowing LA isn't trying to space them out.

Plus, they do have guys that can hit 3s at a respectable level, some at a pretty good clip. Enough to where they'd be a threat the defenses have to respect and that's all that matters here. Get the defense to respect them, and the space opens up. But the space will never be there if you're not trying. You're just making things more difficult for yourself

No, you're not grasping that the Lakers don't have much in the way of 3 point shooters. Perhaps when Kelly and Young get back, we'll see more 3's. Spreading the floor for 3's doesn't do much if the team misses them. It's just long rebounds and runouts.

Defenses would love to see the Lakers shooting lots of 3's. You can still spread the floor and create space without a lot of 3's by simply using ball and player movement (which is the true Basketball 101).

The only players that are currently available that have ever hit 3's at a respectable clip are Kobe, who doesn't have his legs yet and Lin. Once the Lakers have Kelly and Young back and a better overall grasp of the offense, then we may see more 3's as they will have more players who can shoot it and the offense should be working better.

They shot an abysmal 35% from the field last night. They need to make 2's before they worry about 3's.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Are we posting here for the game or going to the Suns thread?

 

[DJ Fieri]

No, you're not grasping that the Lakers don't have much in the way of 3 point shooters. Perhaps when Kelly and Young get back, we'll see more 3's. Spreading the floor for 3's doesn't do much if the team misses them. It's just long rebounds and runouts.

Defenses would love to see the Lakers shooting lots of 3's. You can still spread the floor and create space without a lot of 3's by simply using ball and player movement (which is the true Basketball 101).

The only players that are currently available that have ever hit 3's at a respectable clip are Kobe, who doesn't have his legs yet and Lin. Once the Lakers have Kelly and Young back and a better overall grasp of the offense, then we may see more 3's as they will have more players who can shoot it and the offense should be working better.

They shot an abysmal 35% from the field last night. They need to make 2's before they worry about 3's.

Yes. I'm just glad Kobe wasn't in love with his outside shot last night.

I've seen that ending before.

 

[DJ Fieri]

Young, Kelly and Ellington are outside shooters and they didn't play last night.

 

[wildturkey]

No, you're not grasping that the Lakers don't have much in the way of 3 point shooters. Perhaps when Kelly and Young get back, we'll see more 3's. Spreading the floor for 3's doesn't do much if the team misses them. It's just long rebounds and runouts.

Defenses would love to see the Lakers shooting lots of 3's. You can still spread the floor and create space without a lot of 3's by simply using ball and player movement (which is the true Basketball 101).

The only players that are currently available that have ever hit 3's at a respectable clip are Kobe, who doesn't have his legs yet and Lin. Once the Lakers have Kelly and Young back and a better overall grasp of the offense, then we may see more 3's as they will have more players who can shoot it and the offense should be working better.

They shot an abysmal 35% from the field last night. They need to make 2's before they worry about 3's.

Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. This is a basketball philosophy issue, not a personnel issue. It doesn't matter that Young and Kelly are out. Scott stated what he wanted even before the preseason. If he goes by his word, he won't adjust simply by putting them into the lineup.They're still going to shoot a low number. Lin, Young, Ellington, Henry,Johnson, Kelly can all hit 3s at a respectable level. Clarkson showed some promise in college as well. You said Kobe is the one that can do it at a respectable level? He shoots them worse than all those guys. He hasn't shot above 33% in over 5 years. Lin and Johnson shot respectable 35% last year while Young and Ellington have hovered around 40% most of their careers. That's enough to make defenses respect you. You have to open up that space. Otherwise, you're going to struggle to score. And this team needs to score to remain competitive because they won't be good defensively, which is a whole separate issue that I'm not getting into. They have to shoot over 15 a game. 10 is a joke. 15 to 18 is a more reasonable number.

And explain how they'll space the floor with no outside shot? This isn't the 80s or the 90s anymore. There's no illegal defense.

 

[trojanfan12]

Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. This is a basketball philosophy issue, not a personnel issue. It doesn't matter that Young and Kelly are out. Scott stated what he wanted even before the preseason. If he goes by his word, he won't adjust simply by putting them into the lineup.They're still going to shoot a low number. Lin, Young, Ellington, Henry,Johnson, Kelly can all hit 3s at a respectable level. Clarkson showed some promise in college as well. You said Kobe is the one that can do it at a respectable level? He shoots them worse than all those guys. He hasn't shot above 33% in over 5 years. Lin and Johnson shot respectable 35% last year while Young and Ellington have hovered around 40% most of their careers. That's enough to make defenses respect you. You have to open up that space. Otherwise, you're going to struggle to score. And this team needs to score to remain competitive because they won't be good defensively, which is a whole separate issue that I'm not getting into. They have to shoot over 15 a game. 10 is a joke. 15 to 18 is a more reasonable number.

And explain how they'll space the floor with no outside shot? This isn't the 80s or the 90s anymore. There's no illegal defense.

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, it is absolutely a personnel issue. Teams don't win games by catering to their weakness, 3 point shooting is a weakness with this team.

So far this season, the Lakers are 7 for 23 from 3 point range, that's 30% shooting and your solution is to shoot even MORE 3's?

The only thing the Lakers need to worry about right now re: 3's is how to defend them better since through the first 2 games teams are shooting 46% from 3 against them.

As for Kobe, keep in mind that many of his 3's have been bailout 3's that he takes against the shot clock when the offense breaks down and they throw him the ball. When he's shooting them as part of the natural flow of the offense, he actually shoots them fairly well.

I expect that once the Lakers get Young, X and Kelly back, Lin gets more familiar with his teammates and role in the offense and Kobe gets his legs under him a little better, they'll probably increase their 3's to closer to the 15-18 range that you suggest, rather than the 10-15 Byron talks about. That just has a way of happening in the NBA.

 

[wildturkey]

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, it is absolutely a personnel issue. Teams don't win games by catering to their weakness, 3 point shooting is a weakness with this team.

So far this season, the Lakers are 7 for 23 from 3 point range, that's 30% shooting and your solution is to shoot even MORE 3's?

The only thing the Lakers need to worry about right now re: 3's is how to defend them better since through the first 2 games teams are shooting 46% from 3 against them.

As for Kobe, keep in mind that many of his 3's have been bailout 3's that he takes against the shot clock when the offense breaks down and they throw him the ball. When he's shooting them as part of the natural flow of the offense, he actually shoots them fairly well.

I expect that once the Lakers get Young, X and Kelly back, Lin gets more familiar with his teammates and role in the offense and Kobe gets his legs under him a little better, they'll probably increase their 3's to closer to the 15-18 range that you suggest, rather than the 10-15 Byron talks about. That just has a way of happening in the NBA.

We can disagree, that's fine. I just don't think you're getting the point I'm making. We're shooting an awful lot of long midrange twos. Those are low percentage shots even without defenders. And we're doing that by design. You're better off shooting the 3 because A) You're hitting the long 2 at only a slightly better rate than the 3 B) the 3 is worth more.

It's all been explained in many of MIT Sloan papers. Look them up if you have the time. They're a great read. I'll simplify it a bit though here. The math here is just a rough estimate to show the premise, the papers go into more detail. A team shoot 100 long 2s and hits 42% of them, a reasonable number. That equals 84 pts. A team shoots 100 3s but hits 35% of them (reasonable, but it is lower than the long two). But the point value equals 105 pts. Way more bang for you buck even at the expense of the lower percentage.

And just as crucially, that scheming those 3s opens up space, space that doesn't exist if everything is schemed to the middle of the floor. And when there's no space, there's more defensive pressure, which leads to more contested shots, which leads to a very low shooting percentage. And that's exactly what's happened to LA so far.