Series Thread: Rangers have a sweet tooth and are hungry for some M's&M's - 8/17 - 8/19

[gb2]

Pitching wins and losses are less than meaningless.

Depends.
Show me a guy who takes a quality start into the 7th, and then the pen blows it, I agree. But show me a guy who is constantly pitching behind in a game, and then loses, and it's a telling stat.

An example to back up your statement is Clayton Kershaw: Has a great year, Cy Young 'n all, then gets beat in the playoffs routinely.
And don't forget he basically lost the All-Star game this year.

 

[romeo212000]

Depends.
Show me a guy who takes a quality start into the 7th, and then the pen blows it, I agree. But show me a guy who is constantly pitching behind in a game, and then loses, and it's a telling stat.

An example to back up your statement is Clayton Kershaw: Has a great year, Cy Young 'n all, then gets beat in the playoffs routinely.
And don't forget he basically lost the All-Star game this year.

Wins and losses are a team stat. I've watched King Felix lose 1-0 too many times due to piss poor offense to ever have any respect for the stat. It's meaningless.

 

[romeo212000]

They do need to grow up. Whether you are able to pick up on that or not is irrelevant. And their current performance on the field is irrelevant as well when it comes to their maturity level. You seem to not be able to separate the two. As long as Elvis is playing better, he can do what he wants? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. I've been saying he needs to grow up for a very long time now, regardless of how he's playing. And I am 100% right.

What you don't seem to understand Romeo is that being as immature as Elvis absolutely 100% DOES HINDER HIS PLAY AND DEVELOPMENT AS A PLAYER. Period. You gripe at Elvis when he gets picked off. You cuss at him when he boots routine grounders. Do you want to know why he hasn't improved on any of those things since his rookie year? It's because he has the mindset of a 10 yr old.

Furthermore, you absolutely are being hypocritical here. You are hands down the most negative poster on here. By a landslide. And that's cool with most of us because we know your posting style and that you like to vent. And NO, it is not always about "individual plays". The point is, you rant and rave constantly about the team. But the minute anyone else speaks out against something that bothers him, you're the first in line to call him out for complaining. Sorry, but it's true. I can be thrilled with how the team is playing and overall happy but still wish Elvis would cool it on the nightly Gatorade baths. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

And if you actually read what I initially posted instead of jumping to hyperbole, you would know that I said that I'm all for them having fun and the occasional Gatorade shower. But because I said that the nightly Gatorade chase by Elvis and Odor is getting a bit old, that makes me "no fun at parties" according to you. Maybe you equate constantly acting like an immature child to being a fun person. Most adults would disagree. That act is funny for a while but quickly wears thin.

It's ok to have fun at your job. It's not ok to show up to work and just goof off 24/7.

TL; DR

 

[gb2]

Wins and losses are a team stat.

To a point I agree.
But W's & L's are not meaningless.
If they were, they wouldn't keep the win-loss stats.

 

[scotsman1948]

DDJ in left hurts his value and having another Fowler type guy doesn't help us.

Okay just a thought

 

[Xx srs bsns xX]

Maybe from the same source Fraley had when he said all of the negative things about Pudge when Pudge left. In other words maybe it is a bad source. Maybe from the same source Evan had when he told me less than a week before the Rangers brought Moreland up in 2010 that he didn't see Moreland coming up that year. In fact Evan hardly ever is close when asked those sort of questions about when Rangers prospects will arrive.

The kid just turned 22. He isn't running out of time.

BP ranked him at 31st in the nation before this season so there are knowledgeable folks that aren't down on him at all. Keith Law had him ranked 3rd in our system and 35th overall before this season so he still likes him a lot.

Already on a 40 man and used up 1 of his 3 option years (this year) says differently.
And yes, while they all rank him highly, they all say the same thing that I stated (cause guess where I got that?)... that his receiving skills need to get better.


I'll even copy/paste a few things from K.Law recently..

"The main dishes here are catcher Jorge Alfaro and right-hander Jake Thompson, with Alfaro ranking No. 49 in my last update and Thompson just missing the top 50. Alfaro, who is out until at least the Arizona Fall League due to a severe ankle injury, has an 80-grade arm and 80 raw power, but has shown very little improvement in his plate discipline over the past few years and has to be more willing to work the count to get to that power in games. He has the tools to be an above-average receiver and framer, but hasn't always put the required work into the task."

"Alfaro might be the one guy they put on the slow track, given all of the less obvious aspects to catching that he needs to work on, and his propensity to swing at every pitch thrown in his vicinity."

 

[True Rangers Fan]

To a point I agree.
But W's & L's are not meaningless.
If they were, they wouldn't keep the win-loss stats.

In this day and age, the statistical value of the "pitcher win" has been drastically diluted. It's really nothing more than "who was the pitcher of record when the team took the lead for good." It's not a definitive, be-all end-all way to gauge performances, which is why most people call it meaningless.

 

[gb2]

It's not a definitive, be-all end-all way to gauge performances,

I get that. I just don't think you can discard it as " meaningless". Especially if a pitcher is constantly behind in the early innings. HIs loss in those cases ARE important.

 

[romeo212000]

I get that. I just don't think you can discard it as " meaningless". Especially if a pitcher is constantly behind in the early innings. HIs loss in those cases ARE important.

It's meaningless. It's a stat that is kept because it's always been kept, and is entirely too dependent on run support.

 

[Xx srs bsns xX]

It's meaningless. It's a stat that is kept because it's always been kept, and is entirely too dependent on run support.

Case & point (that you are trying to make)... is look at Colby Lewis. Tied for 3rd in the AL in wins.

 

[romeo212000]

Case & point (that you are trying to make)... is look at Colby Lewis. Tied for 3rd in the AL in wins.

Let's add Scott Feldman's 18 win season to that list as well.

 

[WastinSomeTime]

I get that. I just don't think you can discard it as " meaningless". Especially if a pitcher is constantly behind in the early innings. HIs loss in those cases ARE important.

Who was behind in the early innings?

 

[WastinSomeTime]

Case & point (that you are trying to make)... is look at Colby Lewis. Tied for 3rd in the AL in wins.

Great run support. True.

 

[romeo212000]

Great run support. True.

Top 3 in run support I believe.

 

[gb2]

ok, I give up, it's meaningless.

 

[romeo212000]

Okay just a thought

No problem. Just my thoughts in response to yours.

 

[saddles]

Already on a 40 man and used up 1 of his 3 option years (this year) says differently.
And yes, while they all rank him highly, they all say the same thing that I stated (cause guess where I got that?)... that his receiving skills need to get better.


I'll even copy/paste a few things from K.Law recently..

"The main dishes here are catcher Jorge Alfaro and right-hander Jake Thompson, with Alfaro ranking No. 49 in my last update and Thompson just missing the top 50. Alfaro, who is out until at least the Arizona Fall League due to a severe ankle injury, has an 80-grade arm and 80 raw power, but has shown very little improvement in his plate discipline over the past few years and has to be more willing to work the count to get to that power in games. He has the tools to be an above-average receiver and framer, but hasn't always put the required work into the task."

"Alfaro might be the one guy they put on the slow track, given all of the less obvious aspects to catching that he needs to work on, and his propensity to swing at every pitch thrown in his vicinity."

He is not running out of time. Two years is an eternity in what a young talented guy can accomplish in terms of improvement in his game. Look at how Nick Williams improved from one season to the next this past year. I just think it is the epitome of impatience to think this kid is another disappointment at this point in his very young career. Most successful MLB players had things they needed to work on when they were at the AA level.

 

[saddles]

It is true you can't judge a pitcher by wins alone, but the stat isn't meaningless either. You can't simply line up pitchers according to the number of wins they have and say that is the same order for how good they are in comparison to each other. On the other hand, you will have a hard time finding very many examples where a 20 game winner is not a better pitcher than a 10 game winner. It happens, but it certainly isn't the norm. Normally 20 game winners are better than 12-14 game winners, but not necessarily better than 16 or 17 game winners.

 

[True Rangers Fan]

ok, I give up, it's meaningless.

Saddles pretty much made the point I was going to. Pitcher wins are an indicator of overall performance when examined from a cumulative standpoint. There are no shitty 300 game winners.

The whole statistical conversation can give me tired head. There are people who think batting averages are not an indicator of how good a hitter is, and that there needs to be a new statistic that includes the park the player played in, the outfielders who were played against, etc.

 

[donaldson79]

The whole statistical conversation can give me tired head. There are people who think batting averages are not an indicator of how good a hitter is, and that there needs to be a new statistic that includes the park the player played in, the outfielders who were played against, etc.

I agree. And ya know a guy who I always complained about with an inflated average? Al Oliver.

It seemed to me Al hit .360 with no one on base, or we were ahead/behind by 5. Then hit .270 with RISP, or late in the game.

And I tried to send you a conversation awhile ago and got, "YOU can't send Ephland a conversation." Am I on your shit-list or something?