Rak and Riley Update

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

Just because we loose rack is not the end of the'world we can draft a olb. Michal jackson from bengals I even hear olb worilds from pitt is gone demarcus ware. I can see ware coming to dc to punish them cowgirl for cutting him if he gets cut

 

[Sharkinva]

Just because we loose rack is not the end of the'world we can draft a olb. Michal jackson from bengals I even hear olb worilds from pitt is gone demarcus ware. I can see ware coming to dc to punish them cowgirl for cutting him if he gets cut

Dude, saying we can let him walk just to draft or sign another OLB is like digging one hole to fill another. Right now we need a starting OLB and two starting ILB's. Resign Riley and Rak, and that drops to just needing one ILB. This doesnt even take into account we still need TWO starting safety's and a starting CB as well as possible a starting D-lineman.

As far as what the market value for riley or Rak is, Rak is the best OLB on the free agent market. He is worth $10 million a year and some one will give it to him. Riley is likely seeking a deal in the range of what Ellerbe and Lee got last year. And considering that he is better than Ellerbe and doesnt have the injury history of Lee, I would not complain about giving him a deal where he could earn as much as they make. Am I proposing a straight $10 million a year for Rak and $7 million a year for Riley?? Not at all. But I think its BS to try and get them to take a deal that says you will make no more than $4 million a year no matter what in light of what guys at their respective positions are making.

 

[j_y19]

We have our own cycle at play. We try and under pay or lowball our own guys because we feel that we can replace them easily. then we watch as the guy we brought in sucks, and the guy we could easily replace goes on to play in multiple playoffs games and even super bowls with his next team. ( See Rogers, Carlos or Clark, ryan for examples of this particular cycle).

What makes you say we underpay? Who have we underpaid? They are only underpaid if they can get more on the open market, which they couldn't. No one forced any of these "underpaid" guys to sign their contracts. They all could have signed with other teams. Why didn't they?

I'll bet you today that Riley does the same thing. Goes out to shop his wares, gets lowball or no offers, and comes back and signs for around $5M give or take 10%. Have you heard of one team that is interested in him? I scan the other teams looking for ILBs in FA. I've never seen one team's press coverage mention Riley. IMO, your opinion of Riley is much higher than most, if not all, the rest of the league.

As far as Carlos, while I disagree with the move, it wasnt that we lowballed him, but we just didn't want him here anymore. He shot his mouth off and pissed the FO and the fans off. Personally, I think they guy was much better than anything we have had since, he just got a bad rap because of the # of INTs he dropped. What was lost in that whole cluster fuck was that he was in position to make those INTs. That means he was providing good coverage. Ryan Clark was years ago and Allen and this FO had nothing to do with that. Ancient history, Shark.

 

[Sleepy T]

Shark, I don't think many of us are arguing that Rak for certain and Riley aren't worth those numbers Adding in performance bonuses. If they get the sacks, tackles, and pro bowls, they are worth that. I don't many if us are talking about that, especially wrt Riley.

 

[Sharkinva]

What makes you say we underpay? Who have we underpaid? They are only underpaid if they can get more on the open market, which they couldn't. No one forced any of these "underpaid" guys to sign their contracts. They all could have signed with other teams. Why didn't they?

I'll bet you today that Riley does the same thing. Goes out to shop his wares, gets lowball or no offers, and comes back and signs for around $5M give or take 10%. Have you heard of one team that is interested in him? I scan the other teams looking for ILBs in FA. I've never seen one team's press coverage mention Riley. IMO, your opinion of Riley is much higher than most, if not all, the rest of the league.

As far as Carlos, while I disagree with the move, it wasnt that we lowballed him, but we just didn't want him here anymore. He shot his mouth off and pissed the FO and the fans off. Personally, I think they guy was much better than anything we have had since, he just got a bad rap because of the # of INTs he dropped. What was lost in that whole cluster fuck was that he was in position to make those INTs. That means he was providing good coverage. Ryan Clark was years ago and Allen and this FO had nothing to do with that. Ancient history, Shark.

First off, no team can come out and even hint they are interested in a player that is a pending free agent. Its called tampering and teams lose draft picks for it.

Secondly I would be willing to bet Riley and Rak are asking for deals in line with what guys like Lee and Ellerbe got last year in the case of Riley, and I doubt Rak is asking for Clay Matthews type deal, and even if he is its called negotiation of which we have apparently done none of. And you are right, some of it is ancient history. But it also is an established pattern with this team, and one this fan base for some reason seems to support.

 

[Sharkinva]

Shark, I don't think many of us are arguing that Rak for certain and Riley aren't worth those numbers Adding in performance bonuses. If they get the sacks, tackles, and pro bowls, they are worth that. I don't many if us are talking about that, especially wrt Riley.

VT... I have seen posts saying he is worth no more than $3.5 million a year no matter what. By some of the same posters that were hoping we could sign Sean Lee if he became a free agent and though Dallas got a good deal at $7 million a year for an ILB who has not played a complete season in the past three years. Sorry but I happen to think Riley is worth a lot more than $3.5-4 million a year. Maybe not $7 million straight, but with incentives there should be no reason he couldnt reach that. And if I were him i would feel a bit slighted if the team I have started for told me I was worth only half what a guy who hasnt even been able to stay on the field was worth.

 

[gkekoa]

Honestly.. I would rather have Riley and Rak. Im dead tired of us chasing other peoples free agents and valuing them over our own. Also the reality is that Rak and Riley WONT cost us $17 million in cap space this year, or next year, or even in 2016 most likely because no one structures contracts as straight money. Its just not practical. If anything between the two of them we will likely have $8 million in cap space used up this year, $12 million in 2015 (high side) and $20 million tops in 2016 if both hit playing incentives likely built into the deal. And even if we resigned Rak and Riley, it wont mean we couldnt bring in Oher and Swartz.

I'm very much with you on this Shark. I'd rather RAK and Riley for 17 million over Oher and Schwartz. A RT should not cost you 10mil/season and a very average guard shouldn't cost 7 million.

I understand structuring contracts but it's similar to the idea of postponing expenses. It just becomes detrimental and you can structure all players in a similar fashion so that argument just doesn't work.

 

[j_y19]

First off, no team can come out and even hint they are interested in a player that is a pending free agent. Its called tampering and teams lose draft picks for it.

Secondly I would be willing to bet Riley and Rak are asking for deals in line with what guys like Lee and Ellerbe got last year in the case of Riley, and I doubt Rak is asking for Clay Matthews type deal, and even if he is its called negotiation of which we have apparently done none of. And you are right, some of it is ancient history. But it also is an established pattern with this team, and one this fan base for some reason seems to support.

I was referring to past players that I assumed you were referring to that we lowballed. I also was not talking about the teams themselves, but the press coverage of those teams. These guys talk to the FO and coaching staff and know who they find enticing just as the Keim's and Tandler's do with our team.

I think you have to separate Riley from Rak as their situation is different. First, I think the gap between what Rak is asking and what we will offer will not be insurmountable and will fall into that "bit more" you referenced. Also, I do think that RAK will garner interest from other teams and someone will pay him that 10-11M/year. Thus, they market value for him is set by the market. If we want to keep him, we have to pay him. If we don't, i agree with your sentiment that we just opened another hole we need to fill. This is why I think the Rak deal will happen before Monday. We don't want him hitting the market as it could get a bit crazy with him.

Riley, however, is different. He will not garner any interest if he is expecting $7M. He will not garner much interest at $5M. He just hasn't earned that. Ellerbee works against his argument, not for it. Ellerbee was overpaid and did not live up to it. They are now stuck with him and his bloated salary. We can point to that as what we can't afford to do. My bet is Rak will test the waters, get no real interest at the level he is expecting and will be back to us. If that's underpaying our players, I'm all for it.

 

[gkekoa]

So the only way to be a true fan of the team is to support the concept that no one we drafted (aside from RG3, Williams and Morris) deserves to be taken care of, but its ok to chase after every one elses free agents?? Sorry if ir irks me that year after year when we do have good players, we try to low ball them and watch them walk, only for us to end up over paying guys like Merriweather, Madieu Williams and a whole list of guys who we all assumed just HAD to be better than the solid player we let go because god forbid we OVER Pay one of our own. I would sooner see us pay a bit more to keep our own solid players than keep chasing the great players. I think its BS that every one around here was drooling after often injured Lee from the Cowboys a year before he was even scheduled to be a free agent. And no one would have bitched one bit if we had gotten him for the same contract Dallas gave him, but apparently any contract that even gives Riley a chance to even EARN over $4 million a year ( your numbers GK) would be considered overpaying him. I am a true fan of the team, buit that does not mean I have to support stupid decisions the team makes. And low balling Riley and Rak under some noble concept that they arent game changers so any one could replace them is just dumb in my opinion.

Rak should get a Kruger type deal but not much more. He's a better player but he has a history of injury here. Not being on the field is one of the complaints you have about Talib.

Riley on the other hand doesn't come close to Sean Lee ability and I wouldn't give Ellerbe the contract he currently has. I do think Ellerbe is better and Butler as well but neither deserve close to 7 mil/season.

 

[Sharkinva]

I'm very much with you on this Shark. I'd rather RAK and Riley for 17 million over Oher and Schwartz. A RT should not cost you 10mil/season and a very average guard shouldn't cost 7 million.

I understand structuring contracts but it's similar to the idea of postponing expenses. It just becomes detrimental and you can structure all players in a similar fashion so that argument just doesn't work.

GK... its the nature of the beast. No one writes straight money contracts any more. And even if we could, it would be crazy to do so for the simple fact that it limits what your team can do over all. In 2-3 years when RG3 is due a new deal, IF he is a franchise QB (of which i have serious doubts ), we are not going to stroke him a contract paying $20 million a year or more average with no wiggle room in the deal. So the real question is, are we better off having Riley and Rak over the next three years where together they cost us an average of $10 million combined against the cap... or better off paying two probably lesser players $8 million combined per year over the same time span just to say we won and got them at our price??

 

[Sharkinva]

Rak should get a Kruger type deal but not much more. He's a better player but he has a history of injury here. Not being on the field is one of the complaints you have about Talib.

Riley on the other hand doesn't come close to Sean Lee ability and I wouldn't give Ellerbe the contract he currently has. I do think Ellerbe is better and Butler as well but neither deserve close to 7 mil/season.

Sean Lees ability dont do dick if he is missing an average of 1/4 of a season due to injury. How much did his ability help in week 17 the last two years when he was out injured?? The ONLY stat Lee beats Riley in is INT's. But on the flip side Riley has more sacks and tackles for loss. So to me its a wash to a degree. Lee just gets talked up more in my opinion, and fuck if I would give an average of $7 million a year to a guy who has missed 25% of the games he was on roster for due to injury.

 

[j_y19]

Sean Lees ability dont do dick if he is missing an average of 1/4 of a season due to injury. How much did his ability help in week 17 the last two years when he was out injured?? The ONLY stat Lee beats Riley in is INT's. But on the flip side Riley has more sacks and tackles for loss. So to me its a wash to a degree. Lee just gets talked up more in my opinion, and fuck if I would give an average of $7 million a year to a guy who has missed 25% of the games he was on roster for due to injury.

Then you can't fault those that make the same argument about Rak. He's missed 2 years out of 5. He's finished the last 3 years injured. I personally think the whole injury prone thing is overblown....

 

[Sharkinva]

Then you can't fault those that make the same argument about Rak. He's missed 2 years out of 5. He's finished the last 3 years injured. I personally think the whole injury prone thing is overblown....

You are right, I dont fault those that say rak has an injury history and should not be paid like an elite guy. But then again Elite to me is the Clay Matthews range of $13 million a year. People are saying Rak should make LESS than Kruger.. there i got to disagree. And you write the deal with injury clauses in it. But to NOT make him an offer at all.. really??

 

[j_y19]

You are right, I dont fault those that say rak has an injury history and should not be paid like an elite guy. But then again Elite to me is the Clay Matthews range of $13 million a year. People are saying Rak should make LESS than Kruger.. there i got to disagree. And you write the deal with injury clauses in it. But to NOT make him an offer at all.. really??

Rak is more valuable to us than Kruger. I have no problem if he is paid as such. As I said, someone will pay him. I'm all about market value. I believe that Rak's value will prove to be in the 9.5M to 11M range. If we lose him, we have to replace him, probably via the draft. Which means we have to use a high pick on an OLB, not on a defensive back or ILB or OL.

 

[Sharkinva]

Rak is more valuable to us than Kruger. I have no problem if he is paid as such. As I said, someone will pay him. I'm all about market value. I believe that Rak's value will prove to be in the 9.5M to 11M range. If we lose him, we have to replace him, probably via the draft. Which means we have to use a high pick on an OLB, not on a defensive back or ILB or OL.

At some point this is called diminishing returns. We loss Rak, draft an OLB who granted costs less, but then we have to pay more for the O-Lineman that we couldnt draft because we had to draft an OLB. We lose riley, then pay roughly the same as he was asking for some one elses free agent ILB, times two because we also had to replace LFB. Sorry man., but if the difference between keeping Riley and Rak comes out to be an extra 2-3 million against the cap but it means two les holes we need to fill in the draft or free agency I dont see the big deal. Because the few players that are actually available and might be as good as better are all older than both players and would likely cost us the same or close to it any way.

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

Would someone post rackpos stats and riley stats

 

[j_y19]

At some point this is called diminishing returns. We loss Rak, draft an OLB who granted costs less, but then we have to pay more for the O-Lineman that we couldnt draft because we had to draft an OLB. We lose riley, then pay roughly the same as he was asking for some one elses free agent ILB, times two because we also had to replace LFB. Sorry man., but if the difference between keeping Riley and Rak comes out to be an extra 2-3 million against the cap but it means two les holes we need to fill in the draft or free agency I dont see the big deal. Because the few players that are actually available and might be as good as better are all older than both players and would likely cost us the same or close to it any way.

Agree with this as it pertains to Rak. Not so much with Riley. I would accept a small premium for continuity's sake with Riley, but not Millions. That is the wrong precedence to set and just isn't good business. He just isn't that good. He is replaceable this year, both in FA and in the draft. Rak is not. While I'm not coveting other team's talent, if Riley maintains he is worth Elerbee numbers, then we can find his replacement with very similar production for less.

 

[j_y19]

Would someone post rackpos stats and riley stats

espn.com

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

Orackpo averages 45 tackles per year. And 8 sacks per year. Is this worth 10 to 11 million yes or no

 

[Sharkinva]

Agree with this as it pertains to Rak. Not so much with Riley. I would accept a small premium for continuity's sake with Riley, but not Millions. That is the wrong precedence to set and just isn't good business. He just isn't that good. He is replaceable this year, both in FA and in the draft. Rak is not. While I'm not coveting other team's talent, if Riley maintains he is worth Elerbee numbers, then we can find his replacement with very similar production for less.

Name me one time, one, where we have said this and NOT gotten fucked?? Riley is better than Ellerbe, has a better health record than either Butler who just got an extension, or Lee whom every one thinks was worth the deal he got. He has steadily gotten better and likely will continue to improve.