politics thread

[fritowrdo]

I need to know should I bet pro or anti Trump in this forum thread? Need to know so I follow the rules.

 

[Sharkinva]

The @POTUS offer of 3 year DACA protections extension has major implications. Takes the issue off the table if it succeeds and the SCOTUS ruling goes the right way until possible 2nd term. Effectively ensures no legal immigration restriction in 1st Trump term

Just as you say why should they trust Democrats to stick to the wall if they give these people permanent protection. Why on earth would anyone trust Trump[ for basically extending a three year lease on people he is trying his heart out to deport in the first place?? ONe the wall is built, what possible incentive would people have to allow these people to stay in the country when they can finally prevent them from sneaking in??

 

[Sharkinva]

Not all cultures or opinions are equal. Sorry.

I agree. But you dont dismiss someone out of hand because of skin color, place of origin, sex or religion. IM not going to take a guy fresh from Mexico and expect him to be able to perform brain surgery. But Im also not going to assume someone is a better person because they were born in this country either.

 

[Toadman005]

I agree. But you dont dismiss someone out of hand because of skin color, place of origin, sex or religion. IM not going to take a guy fresh from Mexico and expect him to be able to perform brain surgery. But Im also not going to assume someone is a better person because they were born in this country either.

On that we agree.

 

[gkekoa]

And this sir is the problem. Its not a fucking PIE. People of color gaining real equality and an equal place at the table does not take any rights away from you unless said rights were unjust to begin with. But it has been proven that a marginalized portion of the population does not in fact get a fair shake in most cases. And when are portions of the population marginalized?? In most cases when they dont have enough members of said group to be considered as equals.

Equal place at the table...you have it. It is called the right to vote. That is the only place I have at the table...why should you have more?

Explain how parts are marginalized. Very few white people, while many black people think color should be heard...the rest of us non-racist people don’t think color should matter in decision making.

As for numbers, 95% of blacks vote for democrats because democrats pander to race, while republicans go for substance.

 

[gkekoa]

Dude.. each group does have a different culture. Even when they come from different ethnic backgrounds and are raise in this country. We have different cultures. You have for a long time pounded the table that the problem in African Americans in yor opinion is the culture. As such you dont think they are going to bring different ideas and opinions to the table, partly based on skin color and the culture that accompanies that??

And why the hell would I join someone who has made it abundantly clear that in their opinion my "Culture" has no redeeming qualities and in fact the country would be better off without said culture.

So it isn’t about race...it is about culture. I am glad you finally admit it.

So now you want to break culture up by race. Your choice. Africa is predominantly the third world. South and Central America are predominantly the third world. So yes, let’s import more of their culture...rather than go by the American culture that got us here. Brilliant idea.

I will flat out tell you the culture I am referring to...the one that encourages treating bitches and hoes like shit, the one that doesn’t push education, that has an extremely high incarceration rate and accompanying single parent rate...is not a culture I want at the table. The country would be far better off without this culture.

Now, not all black people fall into the above culture and some white people do fall into it. Again, it isn’t about race. You do not share in that culture because race does not determine culture. Your choices do.

To say all cultures are equal is a load of shit. A culture where men sit around all day and do nothing, while women do all the work would not be a culture we invite to the table. A culture where pedophilia is accepted should not have a seat at the table. A culture that allows slavery does not deserve a seat at the table.

Immediate: 3 yrs of amnesty for 700,000 illegal aliens who'll get work permits, Social Security #s & protection from deportation.


Immediate: Temporary (read: Permanent) Protected Status extension for 300k illegal aliens.


Later. Maybe. Someday: 230 miles of steel barriers.

Dems rejected this today

Of course they did. It isn’t about substance with them...it is about pandering. It is about the illusion that they give a damn.

 

[gkekoa]

I agree. But you dont dismiss someone out of hand because of skin color, place of origin, sex or religion. IM not going to take a guy fresh from Mexico and expect him to be able to perform brain surgery. But Im also not going to assume someone is a better person because they were born in this country either.

I beg to differ sir.

We should absolutely dismiss somebody out of place of origin. Sorry, but if a person comes from a place where terrorism is bred into them, let’s say a certain small village in Syria, where we can not verify who they are, we should absolutely dismiss them.

If a person is from a religion where they sacrifice virgins once every five years to the corn God, you are damn right we should dismiss them.

Here is the thing, nobody is saying a person is better from one place to another. One is more useful to the US, and that is all that should matter regarding immigration. If we need a brain surgeon, we shouldn’t being in the exact Mexican you are referring to. We should bring in a brain surgeon.

 

[Rowdy]

I beg to differ sir.

We should absolutely dismiss somebody out of place of origin. Sorry, but if a person comes from a place where terrorism is bred into them, let’s say a certain small village in Syria, where we can not verify who they are, we should absolutely dismiss them.

If a person is from a religion where they sacrifice virgins once every five years to the corn God, you are damn right we should dismiss them.

Here is the thing, nobody is saying a person is better from one place to another. One is more useful to the US, and that is all that should matter regarding immigration. If we need a brain surgeon, we shouldn’t being in the exact Mexican you are referring to. We should bring in a brain surgeon.

And if the Mexican s a brain surgeon, bring him in. Simple as that

 

[Rowdy]

Immediate: 3 yrs of amnesty for 700,000 illegal aliens who'll get work permits, Social Security #s & protection from deportation.


Immediate: Temporary (read: Permanent) Protected Status extension for 300k illegal aliens.


Later. Maybe. Someday: 230 miles of steel barriers.

Dems rejected this today

No surprise at all Trump is trying to end the shutdown and the libs aren't. What an excellent president he is. I wish he could have at least two more terms

 

[gkekoa]

And if the Mexican s a brain surgeon, bring him in. Simple as that

If the Mexican is a better brain surgeon, then bring him in. Where he is from shouldn’t matter.

 

[j_y19]

I beg to differ sir.

We should absolutely dismiss somebody out of place of origin. Sorry, but if a person comes from a place where terrorism is bred into them, let’s say a certain small village in Syria, where we can not verify who they are, we should absolutely dismiss them.

If a person is from a religion where they sacrifice virgins once every five years to the corn God, you are damn right we should dismiss them.

Here is the thing, nobody is saying a person is better from one place to another. One is more useful to the US, and that is all that should matter regarding immigration. If we need a brain surgeon, we shouldn’t being in the exact Mexican you are referring to. We should bring in a brain surgeon.

Here's the problem. This country doesn't need more brain surgeons. Our universities are filled with smart students that are graduating with undergraduate degrees that don't mean much any more and the cost of higher degrees has gone through the roof. limiting their ability to become doctors, etc. Then last thing we need are brain surgeons, or engineers, etc from abroad taking these higher end jobs away from our youth. What we have a dearth of are capable and motivated workers on the low end of the work scale. Guess who fills that niche? for the most part, immigrants. There is a real need in this country for immigrants. The problem is that our current system can't process, legally, the volume of entry requests from the immigrants desiring to come here to work. It can take months or even years. Which means they try and cross illegally as they have to live and provide for their families. As long as there is a need for their services in this country (which there is) and the processing is a slow as it is, there will be illegal immigration. SO maybe instead of spending $5B on a wall, we spend it on improving the process of vetting those coming in? And before someone suggests that we have our own unemployed that can take these jobs, not gonna happen unless you are willing to see significant price increases on products you buy every day.

 

[gkekoa]

Here's the problem. This country doesn't need more brain surgeons. Our universities are filled with smart students that are graduating with undergraduate degrees that don't mean much any more and the cost of higher degrees has gone through the roof. limiting their ability to become doctors, etc. Then last thing we need are brain surgeons, or engineers, etc from abroad taking these higher end jobs away from our youth. What we have a dearth of are capable and motivated workers on the low end of the work scale. Guess who fills that niche? for the most part, immigrants. There is a real need in this country for immigrants. The problem is that our current system can't process, legally, the volume of entry requests from the immigrants desiring to come here to work. It can take months or even years. Which means they try and cross illegally as they have to live and provide for their families. As long as there is a need for their services in this country (which there is) and the processing is a slow as it is, there will be illegal immigration. SO maybe instead of spending $5B on a wall, we spend it on improving the process of vetting those coming in? And before someone suggests that we have our own unemployed that can take these jobs, not gonna happen unless you are willing to see significant price increases on products you buy every day.

I agree. We do not need more brain surgeons.

Here is the problem I see with what you wrote though. We do have low end jobs being filled by immigrants. There isn’t a worker shortage already here in the US. We allow enough people to come through and fill those jobs. Those coming over illegally are vetted properly and it isn’t that we can’t speed up the process...it is we don’t need to. They request to come here. We then ALLOW them to come here. That is the process. Going by your train of thought, those crossing illegally are already thwarting the law because they do not like our process and think they know better. Why would it stop there? Well, if they don’t like that legal process, maybe they disagree with our laws on sex and want to have sex with a 12 year old?

As for price increases, this may or may not happen in your scenario. Or are you suggesting that illegals keep wages illegally low by working for less than minimum wage, which is illegal for employers to do and they should be held accountable. Let the market dictate price. Are you as equally outraged with the idea of the minimum wage increase to $15 because that will most definitely drive prices up...artificially.

As for Americans, we still have able bodied people refusing to work because they can get more from the government than they can earn. I don’t blame them for not working, just as I don’t blame the illegal for coming here. I would do the same thing. That doesn’t make it right. The system needs to change.

As for our colleges being filled with intelligent people, I agree. Yet, not everybody in college needs to be there. We have 2 million kids dropping out of college annually without getting a degree. That is money flushed down the toilet.

 

[j_y19]

I agree. We do not need more brain surgeons.

Here is the problem I see with what you wrote though. We do have low end jobs being filled by immigrants. There isn’t a worker shortage already here in the US. We allow enough people to come through and fill those jobs. Those coming over illegally are vetted properly and it isn’t that we can’t speed up the process...it is we don’t need to. They request to come here. We then ALLOW them to come here. That is the process. Going by your train of thought, those crossing illegally are already thwarting the law because they do not like our process and think they know better. Why would it stop there? Well, if they don’t like that legal process, maybe they disagree with our laws on sex and want to have sex with a 12 year old?

As for price increases, this may or may not happen in your scenario. Or are you suggesting that illegals keep wages illegally low by working for less than minimum wage, which is illegal for employers to do and they should be held accountable. Let the market dictate price. Are you as equally outraged with the idea of the minimum wage increase to $15 because that will most definitely drive prices up...artificially.

As for Americans, we still have able bodied people refusing to work because they can get more from the government than they can earn. I don’t blame them for not working, just as I don’t blame the illegal for coming here. I would do the same thing. That doesn’t make it right. The system needs to change.

As for our colleges being filled with intelligent people, I agree. Yet, not everybody in college needs to be there. We have 2 million kids dropping out of college annually without getting a degree. That is money flushed down the toilet.

GK, we are not as far off as you might think. I also believe in free markets. And I agree that many of the jobs that immigrants do here are not jobs that our citizens would do for the same pay. And yes, some won't do these jobs because they can subsist on welfare assistance, in some form or fashion, from the rest of us. But I also believe that most on welfare do not want to be there.

As for price increases, they will be a reality. Yes, illegals work for less than minimum wage in many cases (free markets working). We force a legal workforce, either through filling these low level jobs onto our welfare doles (as you encourage) or through legal immigrants, minimum wage increases will be enacted. But if we can reduce our costs of welfare, it might be worth it.

Where I disagree is the shortage of low end labor. Even if with our unemployed working, we still don't have enough. This is where immigration comes in. And the process is slow, cumbersome and inefficient to get immigrants into this country on a work visa. IF we can streamline the process without sacrificing security, you will see more illegals go the legal route. Lets be real, the path that the illegals take to get here is fraught with peril, expense and hardship.

This country was built on, and expanded by, immigrant labor from its beginning. And yes, that includes slavery. Then the Chinese, Irish, Italians, Vietnamese, Koreans, and now Central and south americans. They all came here as immigrants and used to build this country into what we are today. All also have, over time, integrated into this country with each bringing a part of their culture to make up the American tapestry that we enjoy today. This will also be true from those coming here from the south.

 

[skinsdad62]

GK, we are not as far off as you might think. I also believe in free markets. And I agree that many of the jobs that immigrants do here are not jobs that our citizens would do for the same pay. And yes, some won't do these jobs because they can subsist on welfare assistance, in some form or fashion, from the rest of us. But I also believe that most on welfare do not want to be there.

As for price increases, they will be a reality. Yes, illegals work for less than minimum wage in many cases (free markets working). We force a legal workforce, either through filling these low level jobs onto our welfare doles (as you encourage) or through legal immigrants, minimum wage increases will be enacted. But if we can reduce our costs of welfare, it might be worth it.

Where I disagree is the shortage of low end labor. Even if with our unemployed working, we still don't have enough. This is where immigration comes in. And the process is slow, cumbersome and inefficient to get immigrants into this country on a work visa. IF we can streamline the process without sacrificing security, you will see more illegals go the legal route. Lets be real, the path that the illegals take to get here is fraught with peril, expense and hardship.

This country was built on, and expanded by, immigrant labor from its beginning. And yes, that includes slavery. Then the Chinese, Irish, Italians, Vietnamese, Koreans, and now Central and south americans. They all came here as immigrants and used to build this country into what we are today. All also have, over time, integrated into this country with each bringing a part of their culture to make up the American tapestry that we enjoy today. This will also be true from those coming here from the south.

my thing is come here legally . that is all . just come legally and stop committing crimes

 

[j_y19]

my thing is come here legally . that is all . just come legally and stop committing crimes

I can’t imagine an reasonable person taking issue your expectations.

 

[gkekoa]

GK, we are not as far off as you might think. I also believe in free markets. And I agree that many of the jobs that immigrants do here are not jobs that our citizens would do for the same pay. And yes, some won't do these jobs because they can subsist on welfare assistance, in some form or fashion, from the rest of us. But I also believe that most on welfare do not want to be there.

As for price increases, they will be a reality. Yes, illegals work for less than minimum wage in many cases (free markets working). We force a legal workforce, either through filling these low level jobs onto our welfare doles (as you encourage) or through legal immigrants, minimum wage increases will be enacted. But if we can reduce our costs of welfare, it might be worth it.

Where I disagree is the shortage of low end labor. Even if with our unemployed working, we still don't have enough. This is where immigration comes in. And the process is slow, cumbersome and inefficient to get immigrants into this country on a work visa. IF we can streamline the process without sacrificing security, you will see more illegals go the legal route. Lets be real, the path that the illegals take to get here is fraught with peril, expense and hardship.

This country was built on, and expanded by, immigrant labor from its beginning. And yes, that includes slavery. Then the Chinese, Irish, Italians, Vietnamese, Koreans, and now Central and south americans. They all came here as immigrants and used to build this country into what we are today. All also have, over time, integrated into this country with each bringing a part of their culture to make up the American tapestry that we enjoy today. This will also be true from those coming here from the south.

First paragraph, they do not want to be there but are unwilling to do that which is required to not be there. They believe themselves above a particular job. Take them off of welfare, and they will take the job.

Paragraph 2, that isn’t a free market. That is an illegal market. We don’t force anything. People make choices to fill holes. There will always be the poor in the world. You can’t make people equal in money because people are not equal in skill.

Paragraph 3, that isn’t for the illegal to decide. As inefficient as our government, all government is, they do get better when they realize there is a true and measurable deficit. If we put our poor to work, then we would know how many immigrants we need to fill a slot.

Paragapgh 4, of course it was because it had to be. We only had an east coast and had another 4/5 of this country to settle. We no longer need to import people to settle the land. It is settled. Now we simply need to cultivate.

Let me ask you this in another manner. We can agree this US was a European settlement. Our roots are European and these other groups have assimilated into an American culture. Those coming from the south, are they assimilating? I agree some are. However, we have immigrant communities and they expand. That isn’t assimilation. The fact we have permanent residents in this country that do not speak English means they are not assimilating. We do not want to turn into what immigrants left. We want them to become Americans.

 

[j_y19]

First paragraph, they do not want to be there but are unwilling to do that which is required to not be there. They believe themselves above a particular job. Take them off of welfare, and they will take the job.

Paragraph 2, that isn’t a free market. That is an illegal market. We don’t force anything. People make choices to fill holes. There will always be the poor in the world. You can’t make people equal in money because people are not equal in skill.

Paragraph 3, that isn’t for the illegal to decide. As inefficient as our government, all government is, they do get better when they realize there is a true and measurable deficit. If we put our poor to work, then we would know how many immigrants we need to fill a slot.

Paragapgh 4, of course it was because it had to be. We only had an east coast and had another 4/5 of this country to settle. We no longer need to import people to settle the land. It is settled. Now we simply need to cultivate.

Let me ask you this in another manner. We can agree this US was a European settlement. Our roots are European and these other groups have assimilated into an American culture. Those coming from the south, are they assimilating? I agree some are. However, we have immigrant communities and they expand. That isn’t assimilation. The fact we have permanent residents in this country that do not speak English means they are not assimilating. We do not want to turn into what immigrants left. We want them to become Americans.

You make a huge assumption when you say they won’t do what it takes. most do. The vast majority of those needing government assistance only need it for a temporary time.

It can be both a free market and have a component that uses workers that violate various government regulations or laws. It is free in that the supply and demand for these jobs sets the wage.

All new immigrant groups tend to settle in communities comprised of others of their culture and, for a period of time, these cultures spoke their native languages. Many in these communities never spoke English. Think little Italy in the 20s thru the 40s. But their children all spoke English. And their grandchildren only spoke English. The same holds true for all immigrant migrations. Assimilation doesn’t happen overnight. To expect that the Hispanics would be any different would be naive. This doesn’t mean they don’t want to be Americans. Little Italy is still rife with Italian flags as it was 100 years ago. there is a reason it was called Little Italy. But they were loyal Americans from the start. In WWII, they enlisted at a rate greater than almost any other demographic. As ex military (I think you are, if not my apologies), I’m sure you can see a large presence of soldiers of Latin heritage, right? History repeating itself. You just have to give it time.

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

Be tough like turkey and Israel stop.being wimpy build the wall America is the richest nation on earth but its feeled with alot of liberal pussies and cry babies Build the Wall

 

[gkekoa]

You make a huge assumption when you say they won’t do what it takes. most do. The vast majority of those needing government assistance only need it for a temporary time.

It can be both a free market and have a component that uses workers that violate various government regulations or laws. It is free in that the supply and demand for these jobs sets the wage.

All new immigrant groups tend to settle in communities comprised of others of their culture and, for a period of time, these cultures spoke their native languages. Many in these communities never spoke English. Think little Italy in the 20s thru the 40s. But their children all spoke English. And their grandchildren only spoke English. The same holds true for all immigrant migrations. Assimilation doesn’t happen overnight. To expect that the Hispanics would be any different would be naive. This doesn’t mean they don’t want to be Americans. Little Italy is still rife with Italian flags as it was 100 years ago. there is a reason it was called Little Italy. But they were loyal Americans from the start. In WWII, they enlisted at a rate greater than almost any other demographic. As ex military (I think you are, if not my apologies), I’m sure you can see a large presence of soldiers of Latin heritage, right? History repeating itself. You just have to give it time.

It isn’t an assumption. I actually have a friend, who just recently had an opportunity, but chose to stay on the dole. I am not saying there are not people who need it...I am saying there are many who are on it, but they are still not working.

Except the market doesn’t set these wages. The market is constrained by rules. This means it is not free, and anybody working for an employer who is paying less than required by law is working for an employer that needs to be punished. That way, all businesses are working under the same constraints.

Hispanics have been immigrating since the 20s and earlier. This is the first group that we are bending to and essentially making Spanish our second language. How many Italians still fly it? All that being said, I simply want to allow the best people to come into this country based on merit...not origin.

 

[Stymietee]

Only six people and that isn’t enough? So if we caught six in the database, how many got through and how many weren’t in the database?

Well, I'd say that a lot more got through, not crossing the border, but through other means. There's one thing that no security can stop and that's intent. It is a farce and scare tactic to build a coast to coast border wall. You know it and so do I. If people are scared, just admit to their cowardly ways and let the men in this country do what we do. Oh yeah, the troops were pulled right after the election.