Pitching: need to fix?

[Mays-Fan]

I would imagine budget has an awful lot to do with these decisions. Assuming there is some, but not unlimited, I can see:

1) Resigning Vogey for the club option for 2014, but not beyond. Maybe it's a leap of faith on my part, but it's hard to believe he got that bad that quick after the 2012 AS break without some injury or mechanical issue. The broken finger may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

2) Resigning Zito for 2/25. A year ago and back I never, EVER would have thought I would advocate for that.

3) Move Timmeh to the pen after the AS break if he doesn't come around. His mechanics rely on super flexibility ("The Freak") in all his joints and cartilege to generate speed and spin. He's almost 29 now, and he is doubtless starting to stiffen up from the wear and tear.

4) I'm against signing a top-shelf free agent pitcher. You pay high market price, and have to give up too much in terms of prospects. I think we have some arms in the minors, but they just aren't ready yet.

5) If Timmeh has to be moved to the pen, and a prospect does not emerge from within, I would be in favor of a mid-level or scrap-heap signing for 2013 before the deadline.

6) I'm not in favor of a mid-year acquisition that would obligate us beyond the end of 2013.

 

[tzill]

I would imagine budget has an awful lot to do with these decisions. Assuming there is some, but not unlimited, I can see:

1) Resigning Vogey for the club option for 2014, but not beyond. Maybe it's a leap of faith on my part, but it's hard to believe he got that bad that quick after the 2012 AS break without some injury or mechanical issue. The broken finger may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

2) Resigning Zito for 2/25. A year ago and back I never, EVER would have thought I would advocate for that.

3) Move Timmeh to the pen after the AS break if he doesn't come around. His mechanics rely on super flexibility ("The Freak") in all his joints and cartilege to generate speed and spin. He's almost 29 now, and he is doubtless starting to stiffen up from the wear and tear.

4) I'm against signing a top-shelf free agent pitcher. You pay high market price, and have to give up too much in terms of prospects. I think we have some arms in the minors, but they just aren't ready yet.

5) If Timmeh has to be moved to the pen, and a prospect does not emerge from within, I would be in favor of a mid-level or scrap-heap signing for 2013 before the deadline.

6) I'm not in favor of a mid-year acquisition that would obligate us beyond the end of 2013.

I agree. If we do acquire a SP at the deadline this year, it will be a Josh Johnson type rental -- a #3 type guy who won't cost a Beltran load to get. I think Cain, Bum, and Zeets will be fine and that Tron will come back and also be fine. A Johnson type addition moves Timmah to the bullpen.

Tron's option is picked up for 2014 and Zeets is extended through 2015 at $22MM. Timmah is signed as a reliever for 2/20 or so. Herk is re-signed to a 3 year deal at about $40MM; JLo 2/8; Gaudin 1/3.

In 2014, the rotation would be Cain/Bum/Tron/Zeets/Kick and the bullpen would be Romo/Freak/JA/KCYa/Mijares/JLo/Gaudin.

C -- MVP; Q
IF -- Baby G, Scoots, Stamos, Panda; Panik, Kobe
OF -- Herk, Oxy, Peguero; Shark, Brown

Payroll would be about $135MM

 

[msgkings322]

I agree. If we do acquire a SP at the deadline this year, it will be a Josh Johnson type rental -- a #3 type guy who won't cost a Beltran load to get. I think Cain, Bum, and Zeets will be fine and that Tron will come back and also be fine. A Johnson type addition moves Timmah to the bullpen.

Tron's option is picked up for 2014 and Zeets is extended through 2015 at $22MM. Timmah is signed as a reliever for 2/20 or so. Herk is re-signed to a 3 year deal at about $40MM; JLo 2/8; Gaudin 1/3.

In 2014, the rotation would be Cain/Bum/Tron/Zeets/Kick and the bullpen would be Romo/Freak/JA/KCYa/Mijares/JLo/Gaudin.

C -- MVP; Q
IF -- Baby G, Scoots, Stamos, Panda; Panik, Kobe
OF -- Herk, Oxy, Peguero; Shark, Brown

Payroll would be about $135MM

tzill: not always correct, never in doubt

Actually this is a pretty plausible scenario. The only part I'm not as sure of is Vogelsong being 'fine'. I think he might be through, his good performance was a bit flukey. I could also see him being fine I'm just not as optimistic.

 

[msgkings322]

Interesting pitching matchup tonight, Josh Johnson vs the man we have been calling for him to replace, Timmy.

I'd like to crush him 8-0, but does that change our equations?

 

[msgkings322]

Timmy to the pen is a story getting national attention now (Buster Olney video blog, etc)

 

[Mays-Fan]

Timmy to the pen is a story getting national attention now (Buster Olney video blog, etc)

I'm gonna get real out of the box here, but with as spacious and as breezy as our park is, I would be in favor of getting Tim Wakefield out of retirement and giving him a try. I'm serious. I think his ball would move well here, and there is room in the outfield for hitters to hit some fungoes out there.

 

[Epic Voidfield]

I agree. If we do acquire a SP at the deadline this year, it will be a Josh Johnson type rental -- a #3 type guy who won't cost a Beltran load to get. I think Cain, Bum, and Zeets will be fine and that Tron will come back and also be fine. A Johnson type addition moves Timmah to the bullpen.

Tron's option is picked up for 2014 and Zeets is extended through 2015 at $22MM. Timmah is signed as a reliever for 2/20 or so. Herk is re-signed to a 3 year deal at about $40MM; JLo 2/8; Gaudin 1/3.

In 2014, the rotation would be Cain/Bum/Tron/Zeets/Kick and the bullpen would be Romo/Freak/JA/KCYa/Mijares/JLo/Gaudin.

C -- MVP; Q
IF -- Baby G, Scoots, Stamos, Panda; Panik, Kobe
OF -- Herk, Oxy, Peguero; Shark, Brown

Payroll would be about $135MM

Hard to disagree with this. Good assessment.

Timmeh's future, in my opinion, hinges if they make the playoffs or not. If not, I think the Giants make it clear to him his starting pitching is done in the organization. They'll make an offer, but probably something Tim doesn't want to do (relief), thus, in a subtle way, "there's the door if you see fit" might be the stance of the team.

Pitching woes aside, you guys think there's some spillage from last year with Posey + pitching staff? There's a difference with Tron's velocity being a little bit down from last year. Could be these guys celebrated too much, but if that's the case, once again it's a manager's problem not having some of the guys ready out of the gate. Very similar to last year when the defense was suspect in the beginning of the season.

 

[msgkings322]

Blue plate special on Jake Peavy, on DL for 4-6 weeks, fractured rib

 

[tzill]

Also, Kamp just made his first rehab start. I don't think things are as dire as some.

 

[Heathbar012]

Giants, Tigers need pitching upgrades - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN

Nice article, tzill. Great pen name, too.

 

[TKellion]

I just dont see keeping Zito,Vogelsong or Lincecum past this season!I appreciate everything that these 3 did in our championship seasons but it is time to let them go.Plus it is time to move Sandoval to make room for Posey at 3B.

1)I would love to get Bud Norris from the Astros with his 3 years of control,get them on the phone and make a deal.They can have the pick of our prospects excluding only Crick.

2)Giovanni Gallardo is also high on my wish list who we would have for more than just the remainder of this season.Once again find out what they want Crick is the only untouchable.

3) Move Lincecum now,dont wait.Timmy and a little cash for a decent OFer.

4) I believe that With Cain,Bum,Norris and Gallardo the rotation will be solid for another 2 seasons or more reguardless of who the 5th starter is.Let whoever we have left after the trades fight it out in ST.They cant be any worse than Tim,Ryan and Barry have been this season thus far.

5) Trade Pablo after the season and give Posey the off season to adjust to 3B.

6) Fix it now before we become mediocre again.No one wants to suffer thru replays of 07 and 08.

 

[calsnowskier]

Norris will cost at least 3 of our top prospects, since we don't have any blue-chippers. Gallardo would cost more than we have. No way we are getting him.

No way we are trading Timmeh this year, except MAYBE to Seattle. Dude has no value. Maybe even neg value at this point.

In a video-game world, moving Posey might make sense. The problem is that he WANTS to play catcher. He will stay there for at least 2 more years,then he will move to a different infield position.

 

[tzill]

Giants, Tigers need pitching upgrades - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN

Nice article, tzill. Great pen name, too.

I saw that. Goofy logic "Chad Gaudin wasn't even a good reliever" WTF?? He's been quite good out of the pen and stellar in the rotation. Dude needs to fact check.

 

[tzill]

I just dont see keeping Zito,Vogelsong or Lincecum past this season!I appreciate everything that these 3 did in our championship seasons but it is time to let them go.Plus it is time to move Sandoval to make room for Posey at 3B.

1)I would love to get Bud Norris from the Astros with his 3 years of control,get them on the phone and make a deal.They can have the pick of our prospects excluding only Crick.

2)Giovanni Gallardo is also high on my wish list who we would have for more than just the remainder of this season.Once again find out what they want Crick is the only untouchable.

3) Move Lincecum now,dont wait.Timmy and a little cash for a decent OFer.

4) I believe that With Cain,Bum,Norris and Gallardo the rotation will be solid for another 2 seasons or more reguardless of who the 5th starter is.Let whoever we have left after the trades fight it out in ST.They cant be any worse than Tim,Ryan and Barry have been this season thus far.

5) Trade Pablo after the season and give Posey the off season to adjust to 3B.

6) Fix it now before we become mediocre again.No one wants to suffer thru replays of 07 and 08.

1. Bud Norris is going to take Crick plus. That won't be happening.
2. Gallardo is under contract this year and next at a reasonable salary and he's a legit #2 starter. THAT ain't happening.
3. Timmy has NO VALUE, much less a "decent OF." Ain't happening.
4. Your premise is flawed. Tron will be a Giant next year almost certainly; he's reasonably priced and likely a decent starter. So that's Cain/Bum/Tron, and probably Zeets who is a decent back of the rotation guy.
5. Pablo is under contract through next year for a very reasonable price; he won't be traded.
6. We aren't headed to 07/08 with the core of Cain/Bum/Posey/Panda/Crawford/Pagan/Romo/Affeldt.

Stay calm. All is well.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Watched the 6/16 Braves games on ESPN. Curt Schilling had some interesting comments on Lincecum's mechanics, none of them good re his current form, and they made sense to me, FWIW.

1) At the back end of his windup, TL drops his arm straight down prior to beginning his forward motion. That in itself is fine, per CS, but then he should get his arm back (think of Bum). Instead TL goes pretty much straight up with the ball, and TL loses some mechanical advantage, hence velocity, that way.

2) CS also looked at TL from a front angle, and noted that there was considerable side-to-side movement in his body, so that all his energy was not being expended into moving the ball forward. This in contrast to Teheran, whom CS complimented as being fluid and efficient in keeping his motion with his body moving toward the target.

The good news is that CS felt that with some simple adjustments, TL could likely pick up some of the speed he lost in the last five years. They put up a graphic that showed that TL's average fastball was over 94 mph in 2008, but only just over 90 this year.

While Schilling's voice is somewhat annoying and unrelaxed, objectively I found his commentary on the pitchers to be spot on.

 

[msgkings322]

Watched the 6/16 Braves games on ESPN. Curt Schilling had some interesting comments on Lincecum's mechanics, none of them good re his current form, and they made sense to me, FWIW.

1) At the back end of his windup, TL drops his arm straight down prior to beginning his forward motion. That in itself is fine, per CS, but then he should get his arm back (think of Bum). Instead TL goes pretty much straight up with the ball, and TL loses some mechanical advantage, hence velocity, that way.

2) CS also looked at TL from a front angle, and noted that there was considerable side-to-side movement in his body, so that all his energy was not being expended into moving the ball forward. This in contrast to Teheran, whom CS complimented as being fluid and efficient in keeping his motion with his body moving toward the target.

The good news is that CS felt that with some simple adjustments, TL could likely pick up some of the speed he lost in the last five years. They put up a graphic that showed that TL's average fastball was over 94 mph in 2008, but only just over 90 this year.

While Schilling's voice is somewhat annoying and unrelaxed, objectively I found his commentary on the pitchers to be spot on.

Said this in the GDT...while Schilling might be right, it can't be about anything Righetti and the gang don't already know. If it ain't fixed by now it's probably not fixable.

 

[Mays-Fan]

Said this in the GDT...while Schilling might be right, it can't be about anything Righetti and the gang don't already know. If it ain't fixed by now it's probably not fixable.

You could well be right. I guess I'm hoping that with so much potentially at stake, Timmy could be more coachable. If he continues to struggle as a starter, he might get 2/20 as a free agent, or 3/20 if he's willing to go to the pen. Fix himself back to 2010 form, and he is probably looking at 3/45 or more, and a much wider range of options as far as interested teams, including us. Complete WAGs on my part, but one would hope he would get the message.

 

[SF11704]

Said this in the GDT...while Schilling might be right, it can't be about anything Righetti and the gang don't already know. If it ain't fixed by now it's probably not fixable.

This! Since I happen to work within the technology field I have a pretty good idea of some of the technical capabilities that are available to sporting teams today. With some of the high-speed cameras and digital software that's available they can look at a golfer's swing frame-by-frame and see the movement of the club head and also the relationship of that movement to what they refer to as the swing plane. They used this technique to analyze Ben Hogan's golf swing in great detail. I'm willing to bet that they did the same for Timmy's delivery. Both now and in 2008. Somewhere out there is a side by side comaprasion (in great detail) of what he looked like then and what he looks like now. I have to agree with MSG. If it was fixable .... it would have been fix.

 

[Mays-Fan]

This! Since I happen to work within the technology field I have a pretty good idea of some of the technical capabilities that are available to sporting teams today. With some of the high-speed cameras and digital software that's available they can look at a golfer's swing frame-by-frame and see the movement of the club head and also the relationship of that movement to what they refer to as the swing plane. They used this technique to analyze Ben Hogan's golf swing in great detail. I'm willing to bet that they did the same for Timmy's delivery. Both now and in 2008. Somewhere out there is a side by side comaprasion (in great detail) of what he looked like then and what he looks like now. I have to agree with MSG. If it was fixable .... it would have been fix.

Probably. But maybe TL is stubborn about some aspect of his delivery, for whatever reason.

I believe Zito made some adjustments in 2012 to get back some semblance of form. I have a hard time believing Timmy can't do the same.

I don't give up that easily.

 

[msgkings322]

Probably. But maybe TL is stubborn about some aspect of his delivery, for whatever reason.

I believe Zito made some adjustments in 2012 to get back some semblance of form. I have a hard time believing Timmy can't do the same.

I don't give up that easily.

It's simple logic. Timmy and the Giants have all the information that we do, and that Curt Schilling does, and then about 10 times more. Timmy knows his contract is up, he knows he's struggling, he knows the team needs him. And logically since we know all that, and he is still doing what he's doing, the only possible conclusions are that 1.) he cannot fix it or 2.) he really doesn't want to, for whatever reason (or a combination of both)

Maybe 2. is Timmy saying ''look I worked hard for years, won awards and rings, got paid a ton, enough to live well and smoke tons of weed in my home state where it's legal, I'm going to do what I do, and take a job in Seattle paying me less but still a ton of dough, and just enjoy my life"

2. seems really silly, but not out of the question. Still it's probably 1.