P.J. Fleck >>> Jim Harbaugh

[Kaplony]

LOL, in the ACC? The ACC sucks and always has. The ACC has been the weakest of the P5 conferences historically and rarely rises about that.

And anything a coach does in their first year only means they did well with someone else's players. How did they not even make a bowl game in their 2nd season? Fleck DID make a bowl game in his 2nd season.

And if UMn goes 11-2 and can't even claim a Conf Title, but Clemson can claim a Conf title with just a 10-4 record, well, again, more proof the ACC sucks, hardly a challenge to win that conference.

Strange, the ACC Atlantic champion is playing for it's third CFP title and has had a participant in all six tournaments. The Big Slow West hasn't had even an appearance, but the ACC is weak? Didn't a team from the "weak" ACC just end the Big Slow's title hopes?

And you need to do better research as Dabo Swinney has made a bowl every single season of his head coaching career. When you cannot get even basic facts straight you lose all credibility.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Just saying, I think Coaching is the key to everything.


Hence why a Michigan can seem to never be able to put together a championship season, but a Clemson can rise up and become a super power, and a very long struggling program like Minnesota can just come out of nowhere and possibly match what Clemson has done.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Strange, the ACC Atlantic champion is playing for it's third CFP title and has had a participant in all six tournaments. The Big Slow West hasn't had even an appearance, but the ACC is weak? Didn't a team from the "weak" ACC just end the Big Slow's title hopes?

And you need to do better research as Dabo Swinney has made a bowl every single season of his head coaching career. When you cannot get even basic facts straight you lose all credibility.

"all credibility"? lol I honestly don't care what you think is credible or not. But if you have to seek out petty minor mistakes to try to kill the messenger, that tells me you can't argue against my message with substance.


So, I suppose they got in as a 6-6 team and lost, or got in as a 5-7 team? Sure, hardly matters. My point was still valid.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Strange, the ACC Atlantic champion is playing for it's third CFP title and has had a participant in all six tournaments. The Big Slow West hasn't had even an appearance, but the ACC is weak? Didn't a team from the "weak" ACC just end the Big Slow's title hopes?

And you need to do better research as Dabo Swinney has made a bowl every single season of his head coaching career. When you cannot get even basic facts straight you lose all credibility.

As for your idea that one team can carry an entire conference? lol That's bullsh1t. Everyone knows it.

No one sees Gonzaga at #1 in the cbb polls and then makes the jump to that conference being the best in the nation, lol.

 

[handicappers]

This has turned into one of the most stupid threads... ever!

I see you have met @fredsGivesMenHead . He's a twat.

 

[Innermind]

It’s a hell of a lot tougher to convince good players to travel half way across the country to a campus that has to have tunnels for students move around campus in the winter time.

Do they really have tunnels for the students at Minnesota to get around? If so, that’s awesome.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

The Gopher Way - Wikipedia

Damn — Wish they had that at my college. It was cold as hell walking thru snow to get to some of my classes.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Why would he leave? He has everything he could want here.

Same reason every coach in CFB leaves. They want to get to one of the top programs where they have a blank check to work with and a recruiting footprint filled with elite recruits.

Schools like Texas and USC will out to find another coach because recruiting isn’t their problem.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I gotta side with the Husker fans on this debate.

Coaching is the most important factor, bar none.

Great coaching CAN overcome recruiting.

Great recruiting can NOT overcome bad coaching.



On Michigan boys side, the lack of a quality QB can overcome both good recruiting and good coaching.



So? Why is Nebraska struggling right now?
Worst case scenario? Frost is not a great coach, and no one wants to move to Nebraska. As a Gopher fan, been there, done that. Might have to wait until you get lucky on the coaching side of things with some unknown surprising everyone as no decent coach will want to coach in such a horrible place.


Best case scenario? Frost got left an empty cupboard, and bad timing as Frost came in same time as Fleck, same time NW was peaking, and Wisconsin seems to continue to roll, same for Iowa. Frost might just need more time? Seems to me that they have lost a lot of close games, and they also seem to be inconsistent, some games they seem very good, other games they seem very beatable.


My opinion, can Nebraska EVER get back to winning Natl Titles? Yes, but I don't think it will happen under Frost. I could be wrong? But of course I am biased and believe Fleck and Minnesota will be reigning over the West for the next two decades, lol. But I'm sure Minny will have the occasional down season, so if Frost gets things going you all could slip one in here and there?


Unlike Michigan boy, I don't think recruiting is a important as coaching. A great coach can always win with less talent, but a sub-par coach can too easily lose even with great recruiting.

Depends on the level of winning you speak of.

If it is winning the B1G West — I agree wholeheartedly. You don’t have to have top 10, top 5, top 3 type recruiting classes.

If it is to win B1G CG’s and go to CFP’s — You need BOTH elite coaching and elite recruiting.

You may have a year where a team has their stats align reach the CFP, like MSU did one year. We saw what happened against Bama though.

To compete nationally on a consistent basis — you need elite level coaching and elite level recruiting. It is why we see the same handful of teams almost every year in the CFP.

To put it in perspective how much difference the talent gap is between a top 5 recruiting class and I will use UM as the example, who finished 11th this year.

Ohio State was 4th nationally and #1 in the B1G. UM was 11th nationally and #2 in the B1G.
The top recruit UM signed would rank as the 10th highest ranked recruit for OSU.

That is ridiculous.

 

[Red_Alert]

Depends on the level of winning you speak of.

If it is winning the B1G West — I agree wholeheartedly. You don’t have to have top 10, top 5, top 3 type recruiting classes.

If it is to win B1G CG’s and go to CFP’s — You need BOTH elite coaching and elite recruiting.

You may have a year where a team has their stats align reach the CFP, like MSU did one year. We saw what happened against Bama though.

To compete nationally on a consistent basis — you need elite level coaching and elite level recruiting. It is why we see the same handful of teams almost every year in the CFP.

To put it in perspective how much difference the talent gap is between a top 5 recruiting class and I will use UM as the example, who finished 11th this year.

Ohio State was 4th nationally and #1 in the B1G. UM was 11th nationally and #2 in the B1G.
The top recruit UM signed would rank as the 10th highest ranked recruit for OSU.

That is ridiculous.

Oh, where to begin with this laugher of a post?

You "LOL", but the joke's on you, Harbaugh, Michigan, and your fellow Michigan pimps that live year after year off of tOSU's successes.
You try to insinuate that Michigan is the "#2" team in the Big 10, but they are far from it.

Harbaugh, in his 5th year as HC at Michigan has recruiting classes averaging #10 for 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. However, the results for the 2019 season are as follows.

1) Ohio St:.... (9-0)(13-1)
2) Minnesota: (7-2)(11-2)
3) Penn St:.... (7-2)(11-2)
4) Wisconsin:. (7-2)(10-4)
5) Iowa:........ (6-3)(10-3)
6) Michigan:... (6-3)(9-4)

Michigan entered bowl season at #17. Yeah you want to blame the 4th loss on having to play mighty Alabama in the Citrus Bowl, but that was not close to being the elite Alabama teams that we're used to. The Alabama that beat Michigan by 19 points was without their star QB and others. They had been questioned all season by many. That same Alabama lost to Auburn who lost to Minnesota in the Outback Bowl.

Those #2 in the Big 10 recruiting classes that finished #3 in the East would likely have finished #3 in the West as well.

#2 Ohio St (L), #11 Wisconsin (L), #13 Penn St (W), #16 Minnesota (W), and #19 Iowa (W) are all likely to finish ahead of #17 Michigan (L) in the final polls.
In losing by 19 points in their bowl, if Michigan finishes Top 20 it will be solely based on their name.
.

 

[Red_Alert]

3, 2, 1,

"But Nebraska" - TrustMeI'mWrong

 

[Red_Alert]

Regarding ranked Big 10 bowl losses.

#2 Ohio St (by 6 points) to #3 Clemson (Clemson with game winning TD with 1:49 remaining in the 4th Q)
#11 Wisconsin (by 1 point) to #7 Oregon (Oregon with game winning TD with 7:41 remaining in the 4th Q)
#17 Michigan (by 19 points) to #t9 Alabama (Alabama scored 21 unanswered in the 2nd half)

But "Michigan has the #2 ranked recruiting classes in the Big 10" = TrustMeI'mWrong

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Oh, where to begin with this laugher of a post?

You "LOL", but the joke's on you, Harbaugh, Michigan, and your fellow Michigan pimps that live year after year off of tOSU's successes.
You try to insinuate that Michigan is the "#2" team in the Big 10, but they are far from it.

Harbaugh, in his 5th year as HC at Michigan has recruiting classes averaging #10 for 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019. However, the results for the 2019 season are as follows.

1) Ohio St:.... (9-0)(13-1)
2) Minnesota: (7-2)(11-2)
3) Penn St:.... (7-2)(11-2)
4) Wisconsin:. (7-2)(10-4)
5) Iowa:........ (6-3)(10-3)
6) Michigan:... (6-3)(9-4)

Michigan entered bowl season at #17. Yeah you want to blame the 4th loss on having to play mighty Alabama in the Citrus Bowl, but that was not close to being the elite Alabama teams that we're used to. The Alabama that beat Michigan by 19 points was without their star QB and others. They had been questioned all season by many. That same Alabama lost to Auburn who lost to Minnesota in the Outback Bowl.

Those #2 in the Big 10 recruiting classes that finished #3 in the East would likely have finished #3 in the West as well.

#2 Ohio St (L), #11 Wisconsin (L), #13 Penn St (W), #16 Minnesota (W), and #19 Iowa (W) are all likely to finish ahead of #17 Michigan (L) in the final polls.
In losing by 19 points in their bowl, if Michigan finishes Top 20 it will be solely based on their name.
.

Maybe reading comprehension hasn’t reached Nebraska yet?!?

UM had the #2 recruiting in the B1G at #11 nationally this year. OSU had the #1 class and were #4 nationally.

I was pointing out how big the difference is in a top 5 class and a top 15 class, you clown. Nowhere have I said UM is the #2 team in the B1G. UM isn’t even the #2 team in the B1G East right now.

You are talking to the wrong guy if you think I’m going to say UM is something they aren’t. I’m not delusional, like the Nebraska folk, who think CFB is the same as 25-30 years ago. It is entertaining to listen to their fans though. It gives the term Homer an entire new category.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Regarding ranked Big 10 bowl losses.

#2 Ohio St (by 6 points) to #3 Clemson (Clemson with game winning TD with 1:49 remaining in the 4th Q)
#11 Wisconsin (by 1 point) to #7 Oregon (Oregon with game winning TD with 7:41 remaining in the 4th Q)
#17 Michigan (by 19 points) to #t9 Alabama (Alabama scored 21 unanswered in the 2nd half)

But "Michigan has the #2 ranked recruiting classes in the Big 10" = TrustMeI'mWrong

Not everyone is lucky enough to have a coach who is undefeated in bowl games like Scott Frost is at Nebraska.

As I said - I may switch my allegiance to being a Nebraska fan so I can get an extra month off from CFB because Nebraska fans don’t have to worry about bowl season.

 

[Red_Alert]

3, 2, 1,

"But Nebraska" - TrustMeI'mWrong

Maybe reading comprehension hasn’t reached Nebraska yet?!?

UM had the #2 recruiting in the B1G at #11 nationally this year. OSU had the #1 class and were #4 nationally.

I was pointing out how big the difference is in a top 5 class and a top 15 class, you clown. Nowhere have I said UM is the #2 team in the B1G. UM isn’t even the #2 team in the B1G East right now.

You are talking to the wrong guy if you think I’m going to say UM is something they aren’t. I’m not delusional, like the Nebraska folk, who think CFB is the same as 25-30 years ago. It is entertaining to listen to their fans though. It gives the term Homer an entire new category.

Not everyone is lucky enough to have a coach who is undefeated in bowl games like Scott Frost is at Nebraska.

As I said - I may switch my allegiance to being a Nebraska fan so I can get an extra month off from CFB because Nebraska fans don’t have to worry about bowl season.

^^^ Exhibit A ^^^

 

[Red_Alert]

If TrustMeI'mWrong was even halfway accurate regarding recruiting, then Michigan would be #2 in the Big 10 and undefeated against Big 10 West teams. This is obviously not the case as they are #6 in the Big 10.

Clemson finished #2 in 2015 and won the Natty in 2016.

247 Recruiting rankings leading up to those final rankings.

2012: 20th
2013: 15th
2014: 16th
2015: 9th
2016: 11th

Average: 14th

Dabo Swinney did not have the benefits of Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio St blueblood status. He is an elite coach, established a culture, gets his players lined up properly, and surrounds himself with good assistants.

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

Depends on the level of winning you speak of.

If it is winning the B1G West — I agree wholeheartedly. You don’t have to have top 10, top 5, top 3 type recruiting classes.

If it is to win B1G CG’s and go to CFP’s — You need BOTH elite coaching and elite recruiting.

You may have a year where a team has their stats align reach the CFP, like MSU did one year. We saw what happened against Bama though.

To compete nationally on a consistent basis — you need elite level coaching and elite level recruiting. It is why we see the same handful of teams almost every year in the CFP.

To put it in perspective how much difference the talent gap is between a top 5 recruiting class and I will use UM as the example, who finished 11th this year.

Ohio State was 4th nationally and #1 in the B1G. UM was 11th nationally and #2 in the B1G.
The top recruit UM signed would rank as the 10th highest ranked recruit for OSU.

That is ridiculous.

And those top 3-5 schools also lose more players early to the NFL, so that can balance things out.

Listen, before Dabo showed up, Clemson wasn't even in the same level that you seem to have Michigan in, which would be 2nd tier, they were 3rd or maybe even 4th tier. Maybe he vaulted their recruiting into the Top 5 instantly upon arriving and hence, a few laters, and only with a squad full of Top 5 level recruits was he able to win a Title. You could be right about that. Do you have any evidence to prove that?

Otherwise, it's NOT the same 3-5 teams winning all the time, because 12 years ago, Clemson was NOT among those 3-5 teams, only after Dabo showed up did they become one of those teams.

And maybe you don't remember, but I do, a time when Ohio St was VERY beatable. Then Tressel showed up, followed by Urban Meyer, and then the winning. They were probably Top 5 recruiting classes the whole time, before those two showed up and since, but only with the good coach at the helm were they able to win.


And MSU had their little run with a great coach at the helm, or maybe he was just a great recruiter? Why haven't they risen to the point of becoming one of those 3-5 teams? You say it's recruiting, and you may be right as they probably struggle to out recruit Michigan on a consistent basis, but I see how they have struggled lately and I wonder if it might not be a coaching issue? If he showed up, said all the right things and got big time recruits to show up and won as much as they did on the strength of those recruits, but then a lack of coaching hurt them when it counted, in the big games, well, then that probably hurt future recruiting and now the average coach with less talent to work with is struggling?


The same thing could happen to Fleck and Minnesota. He failed to beat Iowa and Wisc this year, but he did beat PSU and Auburn, in just his 3rd year, so a pretty good 3rd year resume, one I'd put up against almost anyone, Dabo's for sure, maybe even Saban's? I'll have to go look that up. Fleck did also beat Wisconsin last year, so it's not a night and day difference between those two. Remember, Auburn beat Oregon and Alabama this year, and Minnesota then beat Auburn. And I'm sure you consider Bama to be one of the Top 3 teams overall, especially in recruiting. Auburn is probably up there near the Top 5 as well, aren't they? I don't pay a ton of attention to recruiting rankings. And UMn/Fleck is doing that with 30-40 range recruiting 2-3 star players. Only five 4 star players were on the entire roster this last year. Now he has four coming in next year. At this rate, the # of 4 star players on the roster will continue to grow and grow, as long as he gets as many, or more big wins(PSU/Aub) as he has losses to decent teams. He can't have losses to bad teams anymore. And if he is as good of a coach as I believe he is, UMn won't just be winning West Div Titles, but they will be giving OSU a run for their money, doing what Michigan with far more talent, can't get done, and UW can't seem to do either?


I don't think you can win a Natl Title without BOTH, great coaching and great recruiting, I just don't think the recruiting services rankings should be take so seriously that you go to the point of claiming you have to have X amount of 4 and 5 star players on your roster or you can't ever win a Title. I'd like to see the data on that, I bet it wouldn't be as cut and dry as you think it is. And having a roster full of prima donnas might be more of a negative than a positive IF adversity comes upon a team, and/or IF a coach doesn't know how to manage them just right? Some might claim Alabama suffered adversity this year, and hence why they didn't make the cfp? Maybe Saban is not as good as some think he is? The next few years might tell us alot in that regards?

Where does OU come in the recruiting rankings every year?

I'm a numbers guy, maybe before next season, I'll run the numbers on this and see what comes up?

 

[fredsdeadfriend]

If TrustMeI'mWrong was even halfway accurate regarding recruiting, then Michigan would be #2 in the Big 10 and undefeated against Big 10 West teams. This is obviously not the case as they are #6 in the Big 10.

Clemson finished #2 in 2015 and won the Natty in 2016.

247 Recruiting rankings leading up to those final rankings.

2012: 20th
2013: 15th
2014: 16th
2015: 9th
2016: 11th

Average: 14th

Dabo Swinney did not have the benefits of Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio St blueblood status. He is an elite coach, established a culture, gets his players lined up properly, and surrounds himself with good assistants.

And plays in a weak conference. lol

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

And those top 3-5 schools also lose more players early to the NFL, so that can balance things out.

Listen, before Dabo showed up, Clemson wasn't even in the same level that you seem to have Michigan in, which would be 2nd tier, they were 3rd or maybe even 4th tier. Maybe he vaulted their recruiting into the Top 5 instantly upon arriving and hence, a few laters, and only with a squad full of Top 5 level recruits was he able to win a Title. You could be right about that. Do you have any evidence to prove that?

Otherwise, it's NOT the same 3-5 teams winning all the time, because 12 years ago, Clemson was NOT among those 3-5 teams, only after Dabo showed up did they become one of those teams.

And maybe you don't remember, but I do, a time when Ohio St was VERY beatable. Then Tressel showed up, followed by Urban Meyer, and then the winning. They were probably Top 5 recruiting classes the whole time, before those two showed up and since, but only with the good coach at the helm were they able to win.


And MSU had their little run with a great coach at the helm, or maybe he was just a great recruiter? Why haven't they risen to the point of becoming one of those 3-5 teams? You say it's recruiting, and you may be right as they probably struggle to out recruit Michigan on a consistent basis, but I see how they have struggled lately and I wonder if it might not be a coaching issue? If he showed up, said all the right things and got big time recruits to show up and won as much as they did on the strength of those recruits, but then a lack of coaching hurt them when it counted, in the big games, well, then that probably hurt future recruiting and now the average coach with less talent to work with is struggling?


The same thing could happen to Fleck and Minnesota. He failed to beat Iowa and Wisc this year, but he did beat PSU and Auburn, in just his 3rd year, so a pretty good 3rd year resume, one I'd put up against almost anyone, Dabo's for sure, maybe even Saban's? I'll have to go look that up. Fleck did also beat Wisconsin last year, so it's not a night and day difference between those two. Remember, Auburn beat Oregon and Alabama this year, and Minnesota then beat Auburn. And I'm sure you consider Bama to be one of the Top 3 teams overall, especially in recruiting. Auburn is probably up there near the Top 5 as well, aren't they? I don't pay a ton of attention to recruiting rankings. And UMn/Fleck is doing that with 30-40 range recruiting 2-3 star players. Only five 4 star players were on the entire roster this last year. Now he has four coming in next year. At this rate, the # of 4 star players on the roster will continue to grow and grow, as long as he gets as many, or more big wins(PSU/Aub) as he has losses to decent teams. He can't have losses to bad teams anymore. And if he is as good of a coach as I believe he is, UMn won't just be winning West Div Titles, but they will be giving OSU a run for their money, doing what Michigan with far more talent, can't get done, and UW can't seem to do either?


I don't think you can win a Natl Title without BOTH, great coaching and great recruiting, I just don't think the recruiting services rankings should be take so seriously that you go to the point of claiming you have to have X amount of 4 and 5 star players on your roster or you can't ever win a Title. I'd like to see the data on that, I bet it wouldn't be as cut and dry as you think it is. And having a roster full of prima donnas might be more of a negative than a positive IF adversity comes upon a team, and/or IF a coach doesn't know how to manage them just right? Some might claim Alabama suffered adversity this year, and hence why they didn't make the cfp? Maybe Saban is not as good as some think he is? The next few years might tell us alot in that regards?

Where does OU come in the recruiting rankings every year?

I'm a numbers guy, maybe before next season, I'll run the numbers on this and see what comes up?

It is called the Blue Chip Ratio. The lowest since the BCS era, I believe, is FSU at 53% when they won their title. Clemson’s 1st title was the same 53%.

After those two, the teams are all above 60% and as high as 80% for their BCR for the 4 year recruiting cycle.

So basically, you can get away with 50% BCR if you have an All-American QB, like Jameis Winston or DeShaun Watson.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Damn — Wish they had that at my college. It was cold as hell walking thru snow to get to some of my classes.

I visited the Minn campus for a wedding we were invited to and the skywalks they have there over the Mississippi are ridiculous. They're a few hundred feet over the river and have an inside and outside portion. Luckily we didn't go in winter but I can't imagine walking around that place right now.