OT: The Masters - Should Tiger DQ himself?

[dash]

But in this case Tiger didn't know he'd broken a rule, and nobody told him.

Yeah, I don't know if ignorance is a reasonable defense in this case, Dacks. There are officials on every hole at the Masters that you can consult if you're unsure of something. Now if an official gives you the ok and then it gets changed after a review, obviously that's a different situation.

 

[uncfan103]

Yeah, I don't know if ignorance is a reasonable defense in this case, Dacks. There are officials on every hole at the Masters that you can consult if you're unsure of something. Now if an official gives you the ok and then it gets changed after a review, obviously that's a different situation.

This is correct. He had every opportunity to reasonably find out if he was within the rules. According to the rule he should not be able to have his disqualification waived

 

[beantownmaniac]

This is correct. He had every opportunity to reasonably find out if he was within the rules. According to the rule he should not be able to have his disqualification waived

Except there's a new rule concerning viewers calling in. had the call never been made no one would have known and Tiger wouldn't have lost 2 shots correct? this is a big much ado about nothing IMO

 

[dash]

Bubba with a 10 on the 12th today - Now that's my kind of golf

 

[uncfan103]

Except there's a new rule concerning viewers calling in. had the call never been made no one would have known and Tiger wouldn't have lost 2 shots correct? this is a big much ado about nothing IMO

According to the USGA website disqualification should not be waived in this situation because
1.

Unaware that this action is a breach of Rule 23-1, the player fails to include the two-stroke penalty in his score for the hole. As the player was aware of the facts that resulted in his breaching the Rules, he should be disqualified under Rule 6-6d for failing to include the two-stroke penalty .

2.

In revising the decision, The R&A and the USGA confirm that the disqualification penalty still applies for score card breaches that arise from ignorance of the Rules of Golf.

He was aware of the facts that led to his penalty, and I fail to see how he didn't deserve to be disqualified. He knew he dropped two yards from where he should have. He just didn't know he should have been dropping there.

 

[Dacks]

To be fair, I don't know the rules perfectly, but here's my question:

If Tiger had kept playing, and then at some point somebody had pointed out the rules violation before Tiger had signed his scorecard, would he still be DQ'ed? If Tiger had said, "Shit, I think I screwed up that drop, that's a 2 stroke violation" and signed the scorecard properly, would anybody care right now or is that perfectly legal?

If the illegal drop is grounds for DQ, then fine, Tiger should be DQed.

If the only grounds for DQ is the improper scorecard, that's what I think is ridiculous. The timing of when an infraction is discovered shouldn't be such a big deal.

 

[Dacks]

Yeah, I don't know if ignorance is a reasonable defense in this case, Dacks. There are officials on every hole at the Masters that you can consult if you're unsure of something. Now if an official gives you the ok and then it gets changed after a review, obviously that's a different situation.

But they did give the OK:

"Yesterday afternoon, the Rules Committee was made aware of a possible Rules violation that involved a drop by Tiger Woods on the 15th hole.

"In preparation for his fifth shot, the player dropped his ball in close proximity to where he had played his third shot in apparently conformance with Rule 26. After being prompted by a television viewer, the Rules Committee reviewed a video of the shot while he was playing the 18th hole. At that moment and based on that evidence, the Committee determined he had complied with the Rules.

"After he signed his scorecard, and in a television interview subsequent to the round, the player stated that he played further from the point than where he had played his third shot. Such action would constitutive playing from the wrong place.

"The subsequent information provided by the player's interview after he had completed play warranted further review and discussion with him this morning. After meeting with the player, it was determined that he had violated Rule 26, and he was assessed a two-stroke penalty. The penalty of disqualification was waived by he Committee under Rule 33 as the Committee had previously reviewed the information and made its initial determination prior to the finish of the player's round."

That's the whole point. At the time of signing, the drop had been reviewed and was deemed okay.

It wasn't until after his television interview that officials realized it should have been a 2-stroke penalty.

 

[uncfan103]

It wasn't until Tigers post round comments. He should have signed the correct scorecard but he didn't know the rule and didn't sign a correct scorecard. If a player moves the ball around in the woods to give himself a better lie and doesn't penalize himself on his scorecard is that any different? No. Hypothetically, if no cameras catch the guy but he says in a post game interview that he moved it away from a big stump so that he could get it closer to the hole, would you want him disqualified for signing an incorrect scorecard or would you just want him penalized for moving the ball? Keep in mind, the rule is he should be DQed.

 

[uncfan103]

But they did give the OK:



That's the whole point. At the time of signing, the drop had been reviewed and was deemed okay.

It wasn't until after his television interview that officials realized it should have been a 2-stroke penalty.

They never talked to Tiger after his round and told him he was okay.

 

[Dacks]

It wasn't until Tigers post round comments. He should have signed the correct scorecard but he didn't know the rule and didn't sign a correct scorecard. If a player moves the ball around in the woods to give himself a better lie and doesn't penalize himself on his scorecard is that any different? No. Hypothetically, if no cameras catch the guy but he says in a post game interview that he moved it away from a big stump so that he could get it closer to the hole, would you want him disqualified for signing an incorrect scorecard or would you just want him penalized for moving the ball? Keep in mind, the rule is he should be DQed.

LOL, very different. Come on now. There's a scale. Consider these four infractions:

1) Grounding your club in a hazard.
2) Illegal drop.
3) Picking up the ball to give yourself a better lie.
4) Picking up your ball at the tee, walking to the hole, dropping it in, and calling it a hole-in-one.

Forget signing the scorecard for a second. What would be reasonable penalties for the above?

 

[Dacks]

I'll just continue my thought process instead of waiting for a reponse.

To me, if a player intentionally and knowingly breaks a rule that gives an advantage, it should be an automatic disqualification. But what if a player accidentally or unknowingly breaks a rule? In that case, common sense dictates it should depend on the rule. So, considering the infractions I stated in my last post, what would be appropriate penalties, assuming the infractions were accidental?

1) Dustin Johnson, 2010 PGA championship, accidentally grounds his club in a hazard, because he doesn't even realize it's a hazard. 2-stroke penalty.
2) Tiger, 2013 Masters, illegal drop. You decide.
3) Hypothetical cheater. Intentional or not, it's just such a ridiculous move, I would say automatic DQ.
4) Banned from golf.

To me, Tiger's drop, does not merit an automatic DQ on it's own. If you think that the illegal drop, in a vaccuum, is worthy of DQ, fine.

But if you think the drop on it's own was only a 2-stroke penalty, does Tiger really deserve to get DQed because of the timing of when everyone realized it was illegal?

 

[uncfan103]

LOL, very different. Come on now. There's a scale. Consider these four infractions:

1) Grounding your club in a hazard.
2) Illegal drop.
3) Picking up the ball to give yourself a better lie.
4) Picking up your ball at the tee, walking to the hole, dropping it in, and calling it a hole-in-one.

Forget signing the scorecard for a second. What would be reasonable penalties for the above?

Disqualification if you sign an incorrect scorecard because you ignore the penalties associated with those actions. Except for grounding your club in a hazard...if it's only noticeable on replay and you have no idea than the penalty for a scorecard violation wouldn't be applied

 

[uncfan103]

I'll just continue my thought process instead of waiting for a reponse.

To me, if a player intentionally and knowingly breaks a rule that gives an advantage, it should be an automatic disqualification. But what if a player accidentally or unknowingly breaks a rule? In that case, common sense dictates it should depend on the rule. So, considering the infractions I stated in my last post, what would be appropriate penalties, assuming the infractions were accidental?

1) Dustin Johnson, 2010 PGA championship, accidentally grounds his club in a hazard, because he doesn't even realize it's a hazard. 2-stroke penalty.
2) Tiger, 2013 Masters, illegal drop. You decide.
3) Hypothetical cheater. Intentional or not, it's just such a ridiculous move, I would say automatic DQ.
4) Banned from golf.

To me, Tiger's drop, does not merit an automatic DQ on it's own.

You are correct, the drop doesn't merit a DQ on it's own. But, according to the rules signing an incorrect scorecard as a result of this does merit an automatic DQ. Had Dustin Johnson signed his scorecard without acknowledging his penalty he would've been DQed as well.

 

[uncfan103]

But if you think the drop on it's own was only a 2-stroke penalty, does Tiger really deserve to get DQed because of the timing of when everyone realized it was illegal?

If the rule didn't call for a DQ i wouldn't think he deserved it. But it does, at least the way i have read it.

 

[puckhead]

If the rule didn't call for a DQ i wouldn't think he deserved it. But it does, at least the way i have read it.

as I understood it, when he dropped he had a few options which were all legal.
one was to drop at the same spot, one was to drop on the line of the hazard as far back as you want, and I forget the other.

what he did was legal under the 2nd option, and the officials did not apply a penalty when they are tipped off by a dickhead viewer at home. It was only in Tiger's chat with them after the match when he said he was attempting the 1st option that the drop was deemed illegal under that option, and the penalty applied.

fair enough. play on.

 

[Dacks]

Disqualification if you sign an incorrect scorecard because you ignore the penalties associated with those actions. Except for grounding your club in a hazard...if it's only noticeable on replay and you have no idea than the penalty for a scorecard violation wouldn't be applied

Did you miss the part where I said "ignore signing a scorecard for a second"?

Honestly, if Tiger had realized his mistake on the drop, or had been informed of his mistake, what would be a reasonable penalty?

Or does the drop itself merit a DQ?

Again, pretending this happened before he signed his scorecard.

 

[uncfan103]

as I understood it, when he dropped he had a few options which were all legal.
one was to drop at the same spot, one was to drop on the line of the hazard as far back as you want, and I forget the other.

what he did was legal under the 2nd option, but it was only in his chat with them after the match when he said he was doing the 1st option that the drop was deemed illegal, and the penalty applied.

fair enough. play on.

He didn't choose the option to go as far back. He went on a completely different line. Thats why option 1 didn't work.

 

[puckhead]

correction - he was penalized for his comments (on intent) to ESPN, not to the officials directly.
Tiger Woods penalized two strokes for what he said, not what he did

 

[uncfan103]

Did you miss the part where I said "ignore signing a scorecard for a second"?

Honestly, if Tiger had realized his mistake on the drop, or had been informed of his mistake, what would be a reasonable penalty?

Or does the drop itself merit a DQ?

Again, pretending this happened before he signed his scorecard.

Yeah, my bad. If we ignore that he wouldve been assessed a two stroke penalty and it would have been completely acceptable. However, he didn't realize his mistake, he didn't call over a rules official, and he played on and that warrants a DQ. I completely understand what you're saying about the timing of the penalty, however it's his responsibility to make sure that he isn't breaking a rule.

 

[puckhead]

Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na Na

shot a 10 on the par 3 #12