OT: MCoy Should Just Shut His Mouth and Go To Work

[imac_21]

Where do I claim to "know about being black"? I am just explaining that the psychology of how your brain stores information about words, the connections are made, whether you are aware of them or not. The effect is not the same with your examples because it is so much less of what the word means.

So what you're saying is that it only applies to one word.

 

[jayviabay]

Me too! Me too! Just kidding. My posts are so long that it doesn't show up when some read over it (or skip it). I didn't know that black was used negatively, other than just the fact that it was a skin-color discrimination. I also didn't know of the African-American being used to show inferiority in relation to Americans. I knew about the not-being-from-Africa and the - I'm-an-American aspect of it - but the Asian-Americans could say the same thing (note: the thoughts of the speaker outside of the word itself is not relevant here - that's a separate level of racism). Like if I said, get out of her, you ****** f***ing *****. That would be bad, even if with the correct term, as you said above. That's a separate racism to the word itself.

How did i forget about you MHSL? you are right, i think you understand as well!

It just amazes me that people think the same word is being used when it is not. You dont even enunciate them the same way. If the pronunciation was the same, then some of these guys would make sense. Even if that were the case, you still couldnt debate that words can not have multiple meanings. We learned this in elementary.

like: to/too, here/hear, etc...
to/too their/

 

[JDM]

And I established yesterday that I don't believe that. It sounds like utter BS. If the way your brain understands the TWO DIFFERENT WORDS doesn't change, how come no black folks, rappers in particular, have understood it in the way that they always use it?

Or is it always taken in the negative? When Random Black Guy A says to Random Black Guy B "You my n!&&@" does Random Black Guy B subconsciously feel grossly insulted and demeaned and secretly want to beat up his friend?

I am referring to the parts of your brain that fire. The words are similar enough that they trigger essentially the same reaction is the brain, and the history of that word is triggered subconsciously with either word. This is entirely straight forward, basic, psychology. The brain tunes that out as noise because the amount of noise that it processes out significantly outweighs the amount the conscious part processes, and as the effect is small and constant, it never passes into your conscious brain.

You really should read into some basic psychology and how the brain, and the subconscious in particular, works. It's actually really cool stuff and will help you learn a lot about yourself, and a lot about how people can manipulate how you think with just a simple change in word choice. Most of the processing that goes on for every single word is entirely subconscious. The same thing happens with colors, and with shapes, and combinations thereof (they have done studies where they did taste tests of liquor, for example, three times. There was one liquor that would do well in blind taste tests, but didn't perform well in actual sales. When it was taste tested out of it's own bottle, it fared poorly. When the bottle was switched with another brand, it dominated the taste test.) Understanding these affects makes it far more difficult to be manipulated, and the knowledge is priceless.

 

[jayviabay]

Where do I claim to "know about being black"? I am just explaining that the psychology of how your brain stores information about words, the connections are made, whether you are aware of them or not. The effect is not the same with your examples because it is so much less of what the word means.

So, if you talked to one of the elders who have explained this experience to me, you would tell that man, their is no way he could be psychologically impacted by the hateful intent of its usage because "it is so much less of what the word means?"

you cant be serious right now?

 

[JDM]

So what you're saying is that it only applies to one word.

No. I am saying the effect is stronger the more of the meaning that the negative part is applied to. Most people are not even aware of black being used in the way he is implying. For people who are aware, that is still a far smaller meaning of the word than the connection the n word has. There are very few words with effects as powerful because there are very few words that are so strongly connected to a negative history.

 

[JDM]

So, if you talked to one of the elders who have explained this experience to me, you would tell that man, their is no way he could be psychologically impacted by the hateful intent of its usage because "it is so much less of what the word means?"

you cant be serious right now?

For them, the word has a strong impact. For the vast majority of the country, this is simply not the case.

 

[MHSL82]

No. I am saying the effect is stronger the more of the meaning that the negative part is applied to. Most people are not even aware of black being used in the way he is implying. For people who are aware, that is still a far smaller meaning of the word than the connection the n word has. There are very few words with effects as powerful because there are very few words that are so strongly connected to a negative history.

I could see how a word that someone knows is bad can be used to be more hurtful than a word he doesn't know is bad, even if the words are equivalent. That can affect the volume or the mere use of the word to vent or hurt. If the audience understands the intent of the word was to demean, insult, or hurt the other, versus one that doesn't, it's normally treated as such. A report on how blacks and whites think, I feel would be forgiven by those who think "black" is a bad term more than another word, even if in a certain context black and ni**** could be similar (not same).

I could see how the fewer people who know that a word is bad, the more who would use it in a non-negative way (I feel this way, to a minimal extent, in regards to the term "game manager" - people don't know that's an insult and some don't use it as an insult, but it is a condescending term and it can be received as such, regardless of intent).

I could see how the relative number of people knowing the relative hurtfulness of a word affects the numbers of times its used and intent.

But none of this changes anything. It's bad if a receiver perceives it to be bad, if it has this history. Some will receive one spelling differently than another and by one person differently than another and one context different than another.

I'm big on intent. My wife told me putting my chopsticks down into my rice tells the cook I didn't like him or his food. I said that was preposterous and I wasn't going to change it if my intent wasn't that. I didn't take it out. But I haven't done that again since. It's like the soles of the shoes thing - one could intend it or not, though putting shoes on a table can be rude in itself.

Having said that, if contextual and spelling rules bugs you, just don't say either, and get over it. If someone else is chastised for its use, ignore it if you don't agree, you aren't affected if you didn't say it or it wasn't directed at you or your group.

 

[JDM]

But the connections occur subconsciously whether they are able to realize it is not when it is processed or not. Your conscious brain and your subconscious brain rarely interact with each other, and awareness of intent does not change how the subconscious part of the processing occurs.

 

[jayviabay]

For them, the word has a strong impact. For the vast majority of the country, this is simply not the case.

You are going to learn something today JDM rather you want to or not... Vast majority of the country is Caucasian, and they(most) have no interest in Black History or African history. Vast majority of black families who have past down wisdom to the next generation, have plenty of knowledge of its use. The fact of the matter is the word was just normalized over time.

A lot of the Africans who were sold over into slavery were Christians. In Africa, you were considered "black" if you were a devil worshiper or a pagan. If you are not a Christian or do not have religious beliefs, then you have no clue of what it means to be classified as a "pagan". Thats why it was so important for those who were free, to fight to be recognized as "colored", or "Negroes".
Example: Baseball- "The ***** League". If black was just a normal description of skin color, then they would of just called themselves, "The Black League". I do agree with you that, Knowledge is priceless!!

 

[MHSL82]

But the connections occur subconsciously whether they are able to realize it is not when it is processed or not. Your conscious brain and your subconscious brain rarely interact with each other, and awareness of intent does not change how the subconscious part of the processing occurs.

Ok, whatever, keep up the good fight. I would be more inclined to participate if this were generally about words, not these two words. There is absolutely no need to use the ni**a word and ni***r is always bad. If not always bad, if you're not black, it's always bad.

As for the word, "black," as I understand it, it is no longer a bad term, if you don't mean it to be. I suppose someone could use it in outwardly looking way to be benign but secretly mean something bad, but "black" is not the same as the other two. Heck, people can call anyone the most polite term and still hate them and their people strongly.

So I guess, what this all is, who cares? Don't say it and let those who do, fight their own battles. Those who are insulted are insulted at the speaker, not you or your people.

 

[MHSL82]

Example: Baseball- "The ***** League". If black was just a normal description of skin color, then they would of just called themselves, "The Black League". I do agree with you that, Knowledge is priceless!!

That's funny. When I saw the movie 42, I thought the term of the ***** League was formal but the evolution to that word was negative with the connection to the word, "ni***r". I learned that a couple posts back, but yes, you learn something everyday. Well, some do.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Racism obviously hasn't ended and it never will. What do you think your baseline will be for saying that that time period has ended? That 200 years will get longer and longer as I don't think that what we see now will ever decrease much or go away. To those who aren't racist, it seems they always answer for those who are and the history becomes longer. I can see how people can get tired of being blamed for the time before the 1860's and for those during the 1960's. What's going on now can semi-fairly be attributed to a group because they are doing it. And there are offenses now, of course.

The 200+ years refers to how long the US has been in existence. I'm saying that slavery existed for over 60 years in this country, followed by an additional 100 years of institutionalized racism. I'm not considering the racism of ordinary people on the street. I'm talking about the governments of and within this country actively and openly pursuing a policy under which a particular race was exploited, marginalized, and treated as legally inferior. When something like that went on for some 3/4 of this nation's history, it's hard to say it was a relatively short period of time.

 

[MHSL82]

The 200+ years refers to how long the US has been in existence. I'm saying that slavery existed for over 60 years in this country, followed by an additional 100 years of institutionalized racism. I'm not considering the racism of ordinary people on the street. I'm talking about the governments of and within this country actively and openly pursuing a policy under which a particular race was exploited, marginalized, and treated as legally inferior. When something like that went on for some 3/4 of this nation's history, it's hard to say it was a relatively short period of time.

Yeah, the US may be young in history, but 200 years is long enough of a sample size for percentages of its existence to be used fairly.

 

[JDM]

You are going to learn something today JDM rather you want to or not... Vast majority of the country is Caucasian, and they(most) have no interest in Black History or African history. Vast majority of black families who have past down wisdom to the next generation, have plenty of knowledge of its use. The fact of the matter is the word was just normalized over time.

A lot of the Africans who were sold over into slavery were Christians. In Africa, you were considered "black" if you were a devil worshiper or a pagan. If you are not a Christian or do not have religious beliefs, then you have no clue of what it means to be classified as a "pagan". Thats why it was so important for those who were free, to fight to be recognized as "colored", or "Negroes".
Example: Baseball- "The ***** League". If black was just a normal description of skin color, then they would of just called themselves, "The Black League". I do agree with you that, Knowledge is priceless!!

You didn't teach me anything. I am aware of the history. The connection may have even been similarly strong at one point. But when black has other meaning, like "my house is black" and there is minimal other meaning to the other word (besides the group identity meaning, but this is based on the history, still), the impact over time changes.

 

[jayviabay]

Ok, whatever, keep up the good fight. I would be more inclined to participate if this were generally about words, not these two words. There is absolutely no need to use the ni**a word and ni***r is always bad. If not always bad, if you're not black, it's always bad.

As for the word, "black," as I understand it, it is no longer a bad term, if you don't mean it to be. I suppose someone could use it in outwardly looking way to be benign but secretly mean something bad, but "black" is not the same as the other two. Heck, people can call anyone the most polite term and still hate them and their people strongly.

So I guess, what this all is, who cares? Don't say it and let those who do, fight their own battles. Those who are insulted are insulted at the speaker, not you or your people.

Exactly. In those early times, African Christians would rather be called ignorant opposed to a pagan!

 

[jayviabay]

You didn't teach me anything. I am aware of the history. The connection may have even been similarly strong at one point. But when black has other meaning, like "my house is black" and there is minimal other meaning to the other word (besides the group identity meaning, but this is based on the history, still), the impact over time changes.

WE are not talking about a material thing we are talking about human beings. In those times, being classified as black and being a christian, was far worse than a silly word that just held the meaning of ignorance. If you have changed your stance to the impact changes, why are we even discussing this further? I guess the only word with an impact that doesnt change is the silly "N" word?

I dont think you understand that people who believe in Bible wisdom, have a different perspective than those with science degree intelligence.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Example: Baseball- "The ***** League". If black was just a normal description of skin color, then they would of just called themselves, "The Black League". I do agree with you that, Knowledge is priceless!!

Not sure I see it that way, for a couple of reasons. First, the fact that they chose the term "*****" to describe the league does not mean that "black" is a negative term, per se. Second, the English word "*****" derived from the Spanish word for "black," so the two words have the same meaning, ultimately.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the connotations of "black" - though I'll admit I'm a bit skeptical - just pointing out that this isn't a great example IMO.

 

[JDM]

The impact hasn't changed. It may change in the future, but it hasn't changed.

I am not telling you what should happen or how things should work. I am telling you what does happen, as a basic understanding of psychology makes very clear.

 

[jayviabay]

Not sure I see it that way, for a couple of reasons. First, the fact that they chose the term "*****" to describe the league does not mean that "black" is a negative term, per se. Second, the English word "*****" derived from the Spanish word for "black," so the two words have the same meaning, ultimately.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the connotations of "black" - though I'll admit I'm a bit skeptical - just pointing out that this isn't a great example IMO.

You are entitled to your opinion. I would point out that you are missing the point entirely though. Words can be normalized or given different meaning. I am fully aware that the "*****" derived from the spanish word. Blacks adopted it to have a different meaning. Just like other words in the established language of Ebonics. At the time,the word Black to them still had connection to devil worshiping and being classified as a pagan. If you look back at my conversation with MHSL, you would see that im not trying to establish it as a negative term. It doesnt negate the fact it was used with negative intent in past times.

 

[jayviabay]

The impact hasn't changed. It may change in the future, but it hasn't changed.

I am not telling you what should happen or how things should work. I am telling you what does happen, as a basic understanding of psychology makes very clear.

I understand why this makes it clear for you but you dont understand why this does not work for others. We have to learn to respect what others believe and not try to discredit them. That being said, I respectfully disagree with you and will leave it at that. Thank you for a civil discussion.