OT: Hey GP

[tzill]

Sure. But I wanted to make the point that even if you want to re-parse the the entire "War on Terror" as a "Hunt for Bin Ladin" it's a fundamentally naive attempt at appearing objective and/or sophisticated.

Acting like a douche bag is the more concise way of saying it.

Word to the mama!

:attention:

 

[tzill]

its hard to view him as a human. him/the rest of the terrorists dont act as humans. if you cut someones head off on camera, you're not a human. if you plan/orchestrate attacks that kill thousands of innocent people, you are not a human. anyone who does that is a piece of shit and a simple shot to the head was him getting off easy.

that being said, if i was in washington or new york, i probably would not have joined in the group celebration. maybe if i was close i woulda took a walk there to see what it was like, but im not going to stand there for hours like people did.


let me ask this, were your grandparents here or in another country when hitler died?

It is hard to see the humanity in others sometimes....doesn't mean we don't try. My grandparents were here, in New York. I'm not advocating that we shouldn't have tried to kill him; I'm commenting on the celebratory nature of the typical American response. It's not a football game; we were put in a position to have to kill someone -- that's always been a solemn affair.

 

[filosofy29]

Sorry tzill, but I don't operate that way. Though, I never claimed to be civilized either.

lol, awesome.

 

[gp956]

I get the relief, I really do. I do NOT get the total disregard for human life, irrespective (I've been using that word a LOT today) of the evil that life may represent.

We do not rejoice at the death of our enemy. The implementation of justice is not a joyful celebration. As Rabbi Cohen writes of watching the recording of Eichmann's trial, "In this man's eyes are reflected the ghosts of his uncountable victims...and also nothing at all." I am riveted by the face of Bin Laden. I do not want to look into his eyes. Those eyes witnessed the snuffing out of so much life; those eyes remained willfully blind to the pain and loss he caused. I believe justice has indeed been served today. Joylessly, as is appropriate.


May America know a measure of comfort after these almost 10 years, and may we redouble our efforts to rebuild our Nation in a more unified way, knowing that this incredible pain has been felt by members of every political persuasion.

I think you're intellectualizing a bit too much for my tastes. Abstracting away basic human emotion/motivation is an important first step towards socialism, btw.

 

[tzill]

I think you're intellectualizing a bit too much for my tastes. Abstracting away basic human emotion/motivation is an important first step towards socialism, btw.

It's also the first step toward civilization and the Rule of Law.

But you knew that and I suspect are yanking my chain.

 

[filosofy29]

I've got no problem with being grateful that Bin Laden (may his name be erased) can no longer do his evil, but this joyous celebrating is disgusting. My grandparents told me that when Hitler was announced dead, there was no celebration -- just a solemn acknowledgment that justice had been served.

A number of Americans are whooping it up like their team won the fucking championship. I'm appalled. Not shocked, given the fat, lazy, stupid country we have now. But appalled nonetheless.

We don't celebrate the loss of human life -- irrespective of whoever dies. Or at least, as civilized people we shouldn't.

I don't know tzill, I respectfully disagree with this. I do think that running around waving an American Flag in hand while singing God Bless America may be a bit over the top (like msg stated), but I don't see the correlation of that to being the "fat, lazy, stupid country we have now". We are all wired differently and we all celebrate our emotions in a very unique manner. Osama did countless horrid things to us and to his own people. If somebody who raped and murdered my daughter/sister/mother was just put to death by lethal amounts of dog bites, you would not see a well mannered, objective, justice oriented man bowing his head in silence.....you'd see a happy motherfucker wishing he were one of the dogs. When looking for a jury or when looking for a fair trial, you are 100% correct. A fair and just trial needs to be given to every man, woman or tyrant. That said, when trying to limit or censor something as abstract as human grieving.....I think that's a little unfair to judge.

If people start to terrorize or de-humanize other Muslims or are making derrogatory signs or gestures, I'd 100% agree with you. However, I think you're being a little hyper-sensitive in this case. I'm not saying that the American public is handling this event with a great amount of grace or class.....but I don't believe that their reactions are wrong either. If that makes sense.

 

[msgkings322]

I don't know tzill, I respectfully disagree with this. I do think that running around waving an American Flag in hand while singing God Bless America may be a bit over the top (like msg stated), but I don't see the correlation of that to being the "fat, lazy, stupid country we have now". We are all wired differently and we all celebrate our emotions in a very unique manner. Osama did countless horrid things to us and to his own people. If somebody who raped and murdered my daughter/sister/mother was just put to death by lethal amounts of dog bites, you would not see a well mannered, objective, justice oriented man bowing his head in silence.....you'd see a happy motherfucker wishing he were one of the dogs. When looking for a jury or when looking for a fair trial, you are 100% correct. A fair and just trial needs to be given to every man, woman or tyrant. That said, when trying to limit or censor something as abstract as human grieving.....I think that's a little unfair to judge.

If people start to terrorize or de-humanize other Muslims or are making derrogatory signs or gestures, I'd 100% agree with you. However, I think you're being a little hyper-sensitive in this case. I'm not saying that the American public is handling this event with a great amount of grace or class.....but I don't believe that their reactions are wrong either. If that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense, because the vast majority of Americans are reacting with grace and class, even if most of them are happy at this news. It's a small minority acting like yahoos, as always. But they get the press.

Cheer up, tzill!

 

[gp956]

It makes perfect sense, because the vast majority of Americans are reacting with grace and class, even if most of them are happy at this news. It's a small minority acting like yahoos, as always. But they get the press.

Cheer up, tzill!

Fuck Yeah!!

 

[tzill]

I don't know tzill, I respectfully disagree with this. I do think that running around waving an American Flag in hand while singing God Bless America may be a bit over the top (like msg stated), but I don't see the correlation of that to being the "fat, lazy, stupid country we have now". We are all wired differently and we all celebrate our emotions in a very unique manner. Osama did countless horrid things to us and to his own people. If somebody who raped and murdered my daughter/sister/mother was just put to death by lethal amounts of dog bites, you would not see a well mannered, objective, justice oriented man bowing his head in silence.....you'd see a happy motherfucker wishing he were one of the dogs. When looking for a jury or when looking for a fair trial, you are 100% correct. A fair and just trial needs to be given to every man, woman or tyrant. That said, when trying to limit or censor something as abstract as human grieving.....I think that's a little unfair to judge.

If people start to terrorize or de-humanize other Muslims or are making derrogatory signs or gestures, I'd 100% agree with you. However, I think you're being a little hyper-sensitive in this case. I'm not saying that the American public is handling this event with a great amount of grace or class.....but I don't believe that their reactions are wrong either. If that makes sense.

I don't think we're that far apart filo. Let's take your example: if someone did something awful to Mrs tz, I'd want to kill him with my bare hands. I'd probably dance over his dead body. That's human; I get it. However, there is a big difference between this hypothetical animal and Osama -- assuming you didn't know anyone who died at the WTC.

But, we have the Rule of Law exactly for these types of situations, so that vigilante justice isn't meted out and instead justice is distributed dispassionately. It's what separates us from lesser evolved cultures. I get the relief of Osama being gone, but I strongly suspect these celebrations are much more about jingoistic right wing extremism than the abatement of terror.

We can disagree, but to me life is the ultimate sacred thing. The taking of it should never be done lightly or joyously.

 

[filosofy29]

I don't think we're that far apart filo. Let's take your example: if someone did something awful to Mrs tz, I'd want to kill him with my bare hands. I'd probably dance over his dead body. That's human; I get it. However, there is a big difference between this hypothetical animal and Osama -- assuming you didn't know anyone who died at the WTC.

But, we have the Rule of Law exactly for these types of situations, so that vigilante justice isn't meted out and instead justice is distributed dispassionately. It's what separates us from lesser evolved cultures. I get the relief of Osama being gone, but I strongly suspect these celebrations are much more about jingoistic right wing extremism than the abatement of terror.

We can disagree, but to me life is the ultimate sacred thing. The taking of it should never be done lightly or joyously.

Good call, and you're right, my analogy definitely wasn't an "apples to apples" comparison. I was more just trying to illustrate an instance when human emotion would supercede rational thought. True, I don't know anybody personally who died in the Twin Towers or the Pentagon, or on the planes.....but I have friends who did. And even if I didn't have those friends, seeing the agony, fear and distraught in perfect strangers faces was enough for me. They took away friends and loved ones from us.....but they also took away a sense of security as well. People who have entire faimilies that were born and raised in California and had never been east of the Rockies felt the effects (albeit not as strongly) of 9/11.

I agree in large part with the Rule of Law. Having said that, in my humble opinion, there are exceptions to the rule.....very, very, very few of them.....but exceptions nonetheless.

I agree 100% with this.....but again, like I think we agree on, there are exceptions. And like gp said, lol, I'm not necessarily civilized.

 

[gp956]

I don't think we're that far apart filo. Let's take your example: if someone did something awful to Mrs tz, I'd want to kill him with my bare hands. I'd probably dance over his dead body. That's human; I get it. However, there is a big difference between this hypothetical animal and Osama -- assuming you didn't know anyone who died at the WTC.

But, we have the Rule of Law exactly for these types of situations, so that vigilante justice isn't meted out and instead justice is distributed dispassionately. It's what separates us from lesser evolved cultures. I get the relief of Osama being gone, but I strongly suspect these celebrations are much more about jingoistic right wing extremism than the abatement of terror.

We can disagree, but to me life is the ultimate sacred thing. The taking of it should never be done lightly or joyously.

This is where you have to be careful not to lose the benefit that reciprocal punishment conveys to societal norms maintenance - knowing those norms are on their own evolutionary path.

It might help you to think of the rejoicing of this man's murder as a spontaneous expression of the principle of reciprocity, which, if this principle were to be wrapped up within the justice system, might be thought of as punitive punishment.

 

[ColinCoby]

Great thread guys. Excellent points, shared with a lot of class and wisdom.

I'm glad, tzill, that I am not the only one who finds himself cringing at the overall American response to Bin Laden's death. I can't tell you how many messages I've received from compassionate, mostly progressive, mostly college-educated friends, co-workers, and family members in which Osama's death is celebrated as if it's New Years Eve. Rubs me the wrong way...big time.

I found this response from a Vatican spokesman. I am not Catholic, but I find it interesting nonetheless.

"In front of the death of man, a Christian never rejoices but rather reflects on the grave responsibility of each one in front of God and men, and hopes and commits himself so that every moment not be an occasion for hatred to grow but for peace."

 

[tzill]

This is where you have to be careful not to lose the benefit that reciprocal punishment conveys to societal norms maintenance - knowing those norms are on their own evolutionary path.

It might help you to think of the rejoicing of this man's murder as a spontaneous expression of the principle of reciprocity, which, if this principle were to be wrapped up within the justice system, might be thought of as punitive punishment.

I think it's pretty clear that capital punishment does not deter murder. However, I may be misunderstanding your point -- you may be making a larger, more philosophical argument.

That said, I give you this:

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that"
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[tzill]

Great thread guys. Excellent points, shared with a lot of class and wisdom.

I'm glad, tzill, that I am not the only one who finds himself cringing at the overall American response to Bin Laden's death. I can't tell you how many messages I've received from compassionate, mostly progressive, mostly college-educated friends, co-workers, and family members in which Osama's death is celebrated as if it's New Years Eve. Rubs me the wrong way...big time.

I found this response from a Vatican spokesman. I am not Catholic, but I find it interesting nonetheless.

"In front of the death of man, a Christian never rejoices but rather reflects on the grave responsibility of each one in front of God and men, and hopes and commits himself so that every moment not be an occasion for hatred to grow but for peace."

I feel ya, Colin. That was my immediate visceral reaction to the dancing and carrying on as well. And, IMO, the Vatican has it EXACTLY right. This, coming from a Jew.

 

[nateistheshi]

Everyone raises some pretty good points in this thread, but as an atheist and someone that tries to live their life through scientific reason, my perspective is different on this matter. The root of what most of you seem to be saying is rooted in either religion, that the death of one man should never be celebrated because life is precious, or rooted in emotion, that since life is precious, those who take lives don't deserve to live.

Lets take a different approach to this then. Since most of you live in CA, I'm assuming everyone here can relate to this comparison involving the beach. Suppose that there's a great white shark that for everyday, several times a day for a week, comes to a beach near the one that your family goes to (a different beach everyday so it represents a danger to everybody.) With every visit to this beach, it kills a handful of people, so at the end of this week it already has eaten about 100 people, but nobody that you know or even a relation of anybody you know. After this week, it disappears for another month so people start to assume that it's either dead or it has moved on.

Then this same shark starts to regularly come back to the beach, but it only kills somebody on the first visit, because after that word of mouth gets around and all the life guards constantly have their binocculars and bullhorns ready to warn people (plus people have started to stay very close to the shore anyway.) So this shark hasn't killed anybody for awhile, but it still regularly goes where people are, looking for a chance to strike, hoping that somebody slips up.

At this point in time, the coast guard (or navy,) that had been trying to find and kill this shark for awhile (but whenever they get close it dives underwater and hides in a series of underground caves,) find the shark out at sea (so at that moment in time it doesn't pose an immediate threat, but you know that it would kill again if given the chance,) and they kill it, and drag its body back to shore. They identify it as the same shark responsible for the killings and they dump its body back into the ocean.

There are still other sharks in the ocean, so you know that this one shark doesn't mean that another shark attack won't happen, but this particular shark is incredibly powerful and it has killed far more people than any other shark in history. Now then, picture this exact scenario, and tell me if you would feel incredible joy knowing that this killler had been brought to justice? So at the end of this story, tell me, why would it be ok to be overjoyed at the death of this shark and celebrate, but not about Bin Laden? After all, anybody who argues that life is precious, must surely understand that the shark killing for food and Bin Laden killing out of bitterness and hatred are completely different, right?

I'm not trying to downplay the beliefs/principles of anyone here, but I don't think there's any justification for saying that being born a "human" makes Bin Laden better than this shark, whose death we are all celebrating. Afterall, the shark was born a hunter/killer, Bin Laden chose to be a killer.

 

[tzill]

A fair analogy, and let me respond like this: I wouldn't celebrate the killing of a shark either. However, other people throwing a "shark is dead" party wouldn't offend me. Sharks aren't human, and are not created in the image of G-d, so their lives are not as precious.

As an aside, I doubt you're really an atheist; more likely you're agnostic.

 

[calsnowskier]

A fair analogy, and let me respond like this: I wouldn't celebrate the killing of a shark either. However, other people throwing a "shark is dead" party wouldn't offend me. Sharks aren't human, and are not created in the image of G-d, so their lives are not as precious.

As an aside, I doubt you're really an atheist; more likely you're agnostic.

I am an agnostic Atheist...

I believe in my own nothingness

 

[tzill]

I am an agnostic Atheist...

I believe in my own nothingness

wouldn't you be UNSURE of your own nothingness?

 

[calsnowskier]

wouldn't you be UNSURE of your own nothingness?

Agnosticism is where you have your own set of beliefs, isnt it?

 

[tzill]

Agnosticism is where you have your own set of beliefs, isnt it?

IIRC, the greek word Knossos = truth and is the root of "gnos". So a "gnostic" would know the truth (i.e. a deist) and an "agnostic" would be one who doesn't know the truth, or is unsure of it.