OT: Fuck the Government

[Destroydacre]

I want to like Paul because yes, he has some great ideas and i believe he truly wants what is best for the U.S. (unlike our present leaders).

But you are right, some of his other ideas are just out there. Until we get more radicals into the house and senate, Ron Paul just doesn't fit in with our Democrat/Republican political system. I wish it weren't so.

I was really hoping for Chris Christie to run.

I'm past believing any politician wants what's best for the country. It's all about money. Who will pay me the most, who will finance my campaign, who will give me the most donations. The people who give the most will get what they want. Doesn't matter who is in office or what their beliefs are. The money will win out every time.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

When there are 7 lobbyists for every 1 member of congress the people of the United States will lose every time.

 

[awaz]

Yes, the politicians need to do better. But so do the people. Accept some fucking pain! I'm not sure the media environment will allow that to happen. But it would help if people were actually fucking educated and examined issues critically.

the problem with that is nobody can agree with what pain they're willing to take.. cut in to social security, ok, most young people are fine with that, and the unselfish few of the retirement-age wealthy people are ok with that.. but so many people were relying on that and would much prefer they cut spending on the education of the youth..

i think most people understand that in order to fix this, they are going to have to take some pain themselves, but nobody can agree what pain to take.. then you get republicans and democrats fighting for which pains they are willing to accept, and which ones they aren't.. and now that the media has poisoned so many into thinking you're one or the other, there's no middle ground for people to settle in

i agree w/ the couple posts above me that the two party system is what causes a lot of the problem..

we'll start w/ the dems first.. they have no choice.. its obama or bust for them, because 1, a registered democrat cant vote in a republican primary (pretty sure i'm right here), and 2, because its become such a 'team sport' nobody will run against obama on the dems side.. so the 50% or whatever it is that registers democrat, has literally 0 say in who they want to vote for.. its vote for obama, or dont, thats all they have

on the republican side, its primary season, so everyone is running as far right as they can, because they need to get all the votes from the crazy far rights to win the nomination.. then when the actual election comes, and you start getting a good understanding about what they're about, they come way back towards the middle to try to steal dem votes, but has already proven to the republicans that he's ultra conservative, thats how he won the primary

so you end up with a presidencial race between the guy that was as far right as possible, against the incumbent, who got into power in the same fashion, and is as far left as possible.. so you end up having to choose between ultra conservative, or ultra liberal, when in reality, somewhere in between is the right answer for 95% of the population.. and there's no end in sight for this.. it's just a vicious cycle because nobody in the middle has the funding or the backing to make noise.. the media is strictly red, or strictly blue, and its blatantly obvious to see which ones are which.. between propping up their side and tearing down the other side, there's no time left to cover the middle of the road guys that could actually make the situation better.. everything is 'vote for me because i'm not him'.. thats how the past 3 elections have gone, and thats how this one will go.. its just awful.

i would love to see someone run a strictly positive campaign.. and publicly come down on their 'supporters' that come out with negative ads.. how refreshing would that be? someone trying to run on their credentials and beliefs, rather than 'not being him'.. what a novel idea..

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

I rather like today's political climate.

It allows me to do this all day:



And that is good for democracy.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

Yes, the politicians need to do better. But so do the people. Accept some fucking pain! I'm not sure the media environment will allow that to happen. But it would help if people were actually fucking educated and examined issues critically.[/QUOTE]

Politicians have never suffered any pain themselves when it comes to being able to make ends meet. Heck John Boehner plays more rounds of Golf than Tiger Woods. Bush caused this mess after Clinton left him a surplus. Obama was put in charge of fixing the problems Bush left him with. So far he hasn't been able to get it done. It's not all his fault. However, all we have to do is look at his cabinet & see that he has a lot of former members of coporate America surrounding him so he hasn't changed much in this way in comparison to Bush. Obama should have fired Bernake. He never should have hired Geitner to take over for Paulson. Expecting Paulson's right hand man to know how to fix the problem he helped create was STUPID.

If the United States Government eliminates Social Security there will be a lot of elderly dying in the streets & in dumpsters. It happened before Social Security was introduced. I guarantee you it will happen again if the government takes it away.

The government has been trying to get rid of the unions for years. They will never stop trying. The reason they failed to do so back in the 40's & 50's is because the unions went after the families of the politicians & business owners. Yes I mean they KILLED them. If you think it won't happen again you better think again.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

I wish the government was trying to get rid of unions.

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

i would love to see someone run a strictly positive campaign.. and publicly come down on their 'supporters' that come out with negative ads.. how refreshing would that be? someone trying to run on their credentials and beliefs, rather than 'not being him'.. what a novel idea..

I thought, as much as I hate him, Obama did a great job of that in his campaign. He tried to preach his beliefs and whenever he was attacked on an issue he would just try and make McCain/Palin look foolish because of their attack dog style of campaigning.

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

I wish the government was trying to get rid of unions.

Amen


I think everyone except unions want unions gone...but that vote is too precious so one side needs to adopt it. You side with unions you get that entire group to vote for you.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

I thought, as much as I hate him, Obama did a great job of that in his campaign. He tried to preach his beliefs and whenever he was attacked on an issue he would just try and make McCain/Palin look foolish because of their attack dog style of campaigning.

All Palin had to do was talk to look stupid. McCain never had a chance against Obama. I voted for Hilary in the primary. My thinking was things were good under Bill. I honestly believe he & Hilary would have done a better job than Obama has. At the very least they know how to balance the budget.

 

[awaz]

I thought, as much as I hate him, Obama did a great job of that in his campaign. He tried to preach his beliefs and whenever he was attacked on an issue he would just try and make McCain/Palin look foolish because of their attack dog style of campaigning.

i agree.. the attacking of palin (in particular) was mostly the media.. obama did well to preach his own beliefs.. i'll give him credit

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

All Palin had to do was talk to look stupid. McCain never had a chance against Obama. I voted for Hilary in the primary. My thinking was things were good under Bill. I honestly believe he & Hilary would have done a better job than Obama has. At the very least they know how to balance the budget.

Yea but things were good under Bill because the bubble was only getting bigger at the time. Deregulation was at its highest and thats why our country looked so strong financially.

I'm not blaming just Bill, it started under GB1 too

 

[Comeds]

Amen


I think everyone except unions want unions gone...but that vote is too precious so one side needs to adopt it. You side with unions you get that entire group to vote for you.

I am not really in favor of unions and have never been part of one however I am not anti-union. If unions had not existed in the early to mid 20th century the average work week and benefits may be drastically different now. If they were completely abolished I can see things getting worse for the American worker over time.

 

[elocomotive]

Well said. Considering I am only old enough to have voted once before, I have also realized our political system is completely broken it it really has come down to choosing between the lesser of two evils.

I consider myself conservative yet they stand for many things I do not stand for. But because I agree with that side more than the other, I associate myself with them. It has also become well I don't want that guy in office, so I will vote for someone else who has a chance at beating him, yet I do not totally trust this person either.

In the end, it will be a democrat or republican in office. No one else stands a chance and it just depresses me.

As someone who has studied comparative politics, feel free to read up on England to see that political systems with more than 2 parties are not necessarily any better. A third choice is not a magic bullet.

I understand what you are saying PP, but I disagree on the "two evils" and "they are the same thing" mentalities. And I think that people that disrespect voting (and all the other mechanisms of democracy - free speech, right to assembly, etc.) disrespect those that died to preserve democracy. I won't disrespect those rights, but I understand the apathy that comes with feeling like it won't make a difference. I think our political climate has to change for that to happen.

For me, that is as much about all of us as it is the politicians.

 

[PhillyPhaithful48]

I am not really in favor of unions and have never been part of one however I am not anti-union. If unions had not existed in the early to mid 20th century the average work week and benefits may be drastically different now. If they were completely abolished I can see things getting worse for the American worker over time.

Unions "used" to personify the american blue collar worker.


Now, times have changed. With my position at work I actually oversee all of our union labor and all I can say is it is a complete shitshow.

Times have changed. Unions have not.

 

[elocomotive]

the problem with that is nobody can agree with what pain they're willing to take.. cut in to social security, ok, most young people are fine with that, and the unselfish few of the retirement-age wealthy people are ok with that.. but so many people were relying on that and would much prefer they cut spending on the education of the youth..

Yep, it's hard choices. Social security cuts (and no, that doesn't mean you want to kill old people). Both sides have to come together more to make cuts. And we need to tax the rich more too (and no, that doesn't make you a socialist). The equation doesn't work without changing both sides of the accounting sheet. We need more cooperation and a better political environment to get those things done. It's going to take some exceptional individuals to work together.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

Yep, it's hard choices. Social security cuts (and no, that doesn't mean you want to kill old people). Both sides have to come together more to make cuts. And we need to tax the rich more too (and no, that doesn't make you a socialist). The equation doesn't work without changing both sides of the accounting sheet. We need more cooperation and a better political environment to get those things done. It's going to take some exceptional individuals to work together.

I nominate , :vee:, and this guy

because he put people to work.

 

[elocomotive]

Amen

I think everyone except unions want unions gone...but that vote is too precious so one side needs to adopt it. You side with unions you get that entire group to vote for you.

I don't think they should be gone. Comeds is right that they made this country great. But they have too much power today and they are artificially pushing wages WAY beyond where they should be (And yes, I'm a Democrat, see Republicans, we agree sometimes) and are pushing a lot of jobs overseas because of it.

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

I don't think they should be gone. Comeds is right that they made this country great. But they have too much power today and they are artificially pushing wages WAY beyond where they should be (And yes, I'm a Democrat, see Republicans, we agree sometimes) and are pushing a lot of jobs overseas because of it.

^^

 

[Darkstone42]

As someone who has studied comparative politics, feel free to read up on England to see that political systems with more than 2 parties are not necessarily any better. A third choice is not a magic bullet.

I understand what you are saying PP, but I disagree on the "two evils" and "they are the same thing" mentalities. And I think that people that disrespect voting (and all the other mechanisms of democracy - free speech, right to assembly, etc.) disrespect those that died to preserve democracy. I won't disrespect those rights, but I understand the apathy that comes with feeling like it won't make a difference. I think our political climate has to change for that to happen.

For me, that is as much about all of us as it is the politicians.

I agree. If everyone was like me, this country would be a much better place.

 

[Comeds]

I don't think they should be gone. Comeds is right that they made this country great. But they have too much power today and they are artificially pushing wages WAY beyond where they should be (And yes, I'm a Democrat, see Republicans, we agree sometimes) and are pushing a lot of jobs overseas because of it.

Well said!

Far and away the majority of union stories that I have heard in the last 25 are negative ones that bother me, I just do not think they should be gone.