OT: Don't They Have More Important Things To Worry About

[-AC-]

NolanNonsense, AC, and Deep9er's having troubles with the quote button today. It appears they are all upset with themselves and responding to how far off they are.

As to the subject at hand, it's best I stay out of it as far as history goes. I wouldn't have chosen that name, am glad I'm not a Washington fan, and I hope that we, whether we are fans, congress, or lay men, can respect all people, whether they are Native Americans, whites, blacks, Latinos, etc.

None of us were the people who took the lands from the tribes and thus shouldn't bear the blame (I can't give it back either), but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't also respect how they feel and try to limit insults to them.

I hope Natives, pro, ambivalent, and against, speak their mind, not stay silent nor just have a few people in litigation representing them all. I'm sure there are some from all degrees of thought on the issue. You'll find some Tibetans who didn't want to be freed, felt a connection with China, etc. But those who are offended should also speak up.

Posting from a touchscreen phone doesn't always do what you want it to do...

 

[NinerSickness]

Please don't tell me what's a racial slur to my people and what is not. You have no right to make this judgement.

I wouldn't. I only asked you if you thought the term is ALWAYS a slur or not. I believe you that it's been used as a slur, but I don't think it's a hateful term in and of itself. I see it as more archaic than derogatory. I'll admit that your opinion on that facet should carry more weight than mine because I don't have any native blood.

I respect that you feel strongly about this iusse, and nobody should ever have to suffer hateful language about an entire race of people. I just don't think that fact should trump everything else. I think the name is now just a team name & isn't meant to be derogatory. Some people see the name with pride because they love the team. And if 49er were ever used as a slur in the 1800's, I would be really upset if the team changed its name to the SF Trolley Cars for that reason.

No decision on this issue is going to make everyone happy. You have legitimate reasons for disagreeing with me, but I think keeping the name the way it is would be the lesser of two unfortunate situations.



P.S. to MHSL: Everything I've read says "injun" is not a slur. It's a slang contraction. Savage & Prarie N***** were & still are slurs.

 

[TobyTyler]

^ This is only ONE theory ^

Its not a theory.

 

[TobyTyler]

NolanNonsense, AC, and Deep9er's having troubles with the quote button today. It appears they are all upset with themselves and responding to how far off they are.

As to the subject at hand, it's best I stay out of it as far as history goes. I wouldn't have chosen that name, am glad I'm not a Washington fan, and I hope that we, whether we are fans, congress, or lay men, can respect all people, whether they are Native Americans, whites, blacks, Latinos, etc.

None of us were the people who took the lands from the tribes and thus shouldn't bear the blame (I can't give it back either), but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't also respect how they feel and try to limit insults to them.

I hope Natives, pro, ambivalent, and against, speak their mind, not stay silent nor just have a few people in litigation representing them all. I'm sure there are some from all degrees of thought on the issue. You'll find some Tibetans who didn't want to be freed, felt a connection with China, etc. But those who are offended should also speak up.

Nice try. LOL!

 

[MHSL82]

Nice try. LOL!

Maybe I should have said "wish" not "hope" because wishing for something that won't happen is less silly than hoping for it. Either way, I recognize that there's no way to get everyone to agree on this. Some people just don't like people trying to force others to do things, regardless of what that is. They feel like, when you own a team, you name it what you want. Sort of like telling someone to calm down. That doesn't address how someone feels, it just tells them to shut up.

I wish I cared more about this, but I don't. I know others do and I hope they find peace somewhere and keep this in perspective with other things in their world, culture, or family. I tried to stay relatively out of the extremes, but whatever.

 

[MHSL82]

P.S. to MHSL: Everything I've read says "injun" is not a slur. It's a slang contraction. Savage & Prarie N***** were & still are slurs.

Learn something new everyday - that was just my tendency to try to find close to a trio because two is too few, and one is two too few.

 

[NinerSickness]

Learn something new everyday - that was just my tendency to try to find close to a trio because two is too few, and one is two too few.

Well, don't take my word for gospel, but as far as I can tell it's just short for Indian.

 

[-AC-]

^ This is only ONE theory ^

Its not a theory.

For first humans in the America's, it is...

 

[Rathman44]

I wouldn't. I only asked you if you thought the term is ALWAYS a slur or not. I believe you that it's been used as a slur, but I don't think it's a hateful term in and of itself. I see it as more archaic than derogatory. I'll admit that your opinion on that facet should carry more weight than mine because I don't have any native blood.

I respect that you feel strongly about this iusse, and nobody should ever have to suffer hateful language about an entire race of people. I just don't think that fact should trump everything else. I think the name is now just a team name & isn't meant to be derogatory. Some people see the name with pride because they love the team. And if 49er were ever used as a slur in the 1800's, I would be really upset if the team changed its name to the SF Trolley Cars for that reason.

No decision on this issue is going to make everyone happy. You have legitimate reasons for disagreeing with me, but I think keeping the name the way it is would be the lesser of two unfortunate situations.



P.S. to MHSL: Everything I've read says "injun" is not a slur. It's a slang contraction. Savage & Prarie N***** were & still are slurs.

A slur is a slur. You can try to argue that if used in a different context and manner that it might not be, but like you said, my opinion matters a whole lot more than yours on this issue. It comes off as a slur to those that it offends every time, regardless of the intentions. This wouldn't be tolerated for other races, why are Native Americans the exception? Because there aren't many of us left and majority rules?

And I'll repeat myself again, I think it's wrong of you to value the feelings that might come from changing a football team's name over the feelings that come from our nation's capital being represented by a racial slur. Football is just not that important - we all need to take a step back and realize pro sports are just child's games being played by grown adults. I enjoy sports as much as the next guy but let's have some perspective here!

 

[NinerSickness]

This wouldn't be tolerated for other races, why are Native Americans the exception? Because there aren't many of us left and majority rules?

I think it's more of an issue that it wouldn't be tolerated with African Americans rather than all other races. They get far more consideration than anyone else (which is wrong IMO). In sports, it might be because there used to be ***** leagues & they make up the majority of NFL athletes. There really isn't any analogy or equal to which one could compare the name "Redskins," but I'll try... What if there were a team called the "Moors?" That's a term that has sometimes been used as a slur, but it isn't always used that way. It has war connotations because of how the 7th century Muslims started attacking & conquering everyone from Mecca to the Byzantine Empire all the way to Spain for 800 years. However, it was also used as a neutral way to describe a certain kind of people (see Othello). If there were an NFL team called the Moors, people who were offended by the name wouldn't get 5% of the consideration African Americans get IMO. And I don't think that hypothetical team should have to change its name because some people were offended by it.

And I'll repeat myself again, I think it's wrong of you to value the feelings that might come from changing a football team's name over the feelings that come from our nation's capital being represented by a racial slur. Football is just not that important - we all need to take a step back and realize pro sports are just child's games being played by grown adults. I enjoy sports as much as the next guy but let's have some perspective here!

You're doing the same thing that I'm trying to avoid here. You're trying to quantify how much something should mean to someone else. Why should you be able to do that to Redskin fans but I can't do that to Natives? I personally care a lot more about football than I do about people being offended by racial slurs. That's just how I see it. I think people should just rise above it and not let insults from dumbasses affect them. I'm Italian, and it would not affect me in the least if someone called me a wop or a ginny. You clearly don't feel that way, and I don't have a problem with that at all. If racial persecution were going on like it used to in this country I would consider that much more important than football. But in 2013, anything that's even remotely racist (or even things that aren't but the NAACP says they are) is immediately snuffed out & marginalized. That's why I don't think anything in 2013 can be even remotely compared to the 1960's or before as far as racism goes.

 

[NinerSickness]

Let me put it another way: real persecution in the world (where people are imprisoned, exhiled, treated like animals or even murdered) gives me the kind of perspective that makes me a little less sensitive to issues like this. Your feelings are hurt by the name Redskins. I think that's a little silly, but that's just how I feel. You have your opinion, and I have mine. If this were a serious crime against humanity, I would say screw the majority opinion. But with an issue this small, I say let the majority keep their football team's name.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

A slur is a slur. You can try to argue that if used in a different context and manner that it might not be, but like you said, my opinion matters a whole lot more than yours on this issue. It comes off as a slur to those that it offends every time, regardless of the intentions. This wouldn't be tolerated for other races, why are Native Americans the exception? Because there aren't many of us left and majority rules?

The thing is....who cares? Who is it hurting? Its a team name. I'm not trying to speak for you or act like I have walked in your shoes, but just arguing that there's no reason to be bent about it.

I think we all understand that its a relic of a time in America when it was OK to belittle or disrespect other races including native Americans, and that time is long past - I think the vast majority of Americans have no negative feelings toward your group, and in fact most have sympathy for how they were mistreated over the history of the country. I don't see that the Redskins name is encouraging any negative feelings toward native Americans, and don't see the harm its doing.

In fact I would offer that its something to take pride in. My line is always that they don't name teams the Chickens - team mascots are usually things that are to be revered or have a warrior spirit that is not at all negative. Its all how you look at it I suppose. As a purebred Irishman, I've always looked at the silly little Fighting Irish mascot this way - the Irish were mistreated and looked down upon in America once upon a time as well - not like natives, but it was bad - but the team name was about a tough group that you didn't want to mess with, not a joke or insult.

My $.02.

 

[Rathman44]

I think it's more of an issue that it wouldn't be tolerated with African Americans rather than all other races. They get far more consideration than anyone else (which is wrong IMO). In sports, it might be because there used to be ***** leagues & they make up the majority of NFL athletes. There really isn't any analogy or equal to which one could compare the name "Redskins," but I'll try... What if there were a team called the "Moors?" That's a term that has sometimes been used as a slur, but it isn't always used that way. It has war connotations because of how the 7th century Muslims started attacking & conquering everyone from Mecca to the Byzantine Empire all the way to Spain for 800 years. However, it was also used as a neutral way to describe a certain kind of people (see Othello). If there were an NFL team called the Moors, people who were offended by the name wouldn't get 5% of the consideration African Americans get IMO. And I don't think that hypothetical team should have to change its name because some people were offended by it.



You're doing the same thing that I'm trying to avoid here. You're trying to quantify how much something should mean to someone else. Why should you be able to do that to Redskin fans but I can't do that to Natives? I personally care a lot more about football than I do about people being offended by racial slurs. That's just how I see it. I think people should just rise above it and not let insults from dumbasses affect them. I'm Italian, and it would not affect me in the least if someone called me a wop or a ginny. You clearly don't feel that way, and I don't have a problem with that at all. If racial persecution were going on like it used to in this country I would consider that much more important than football. But in 2013, anything that's even remotely racist (or even things that aren't but the NAACP says they are) is immediately snuffed out & marginalized. That's why I don't think anything in 2013 can be even remotely compared to the 1960's or before as far as racism goes.

i love it when white people tell other races to chill out about racial slurs, but dear lord let's not change a football team's name!!! the rest of us need to rise above it so they can have their precious racial slur representing their team! ???

Also, the term redskin is and always has been as offensive to us as the word N***** is to black people. Stop trying to tell me how offensive it is or compare it to some archaic example. The term has become accepted by society because of the football team and the fact that Native Americans don't have a true voice in American society to inform dense individuals of how offensive the term is.

The SF Chinks, LA Wetbacks, NY Kikes, etc would never fly either...it's not just a black thing.

Racism and hate are still very much alive today and I have witnessed it first hand on many occasions. Have things been worse before or is it possible that there are worse situations out there? Of course, but that shouldn't marginalize the problems we still have today in our country. This doesn't mean we still can't strive for something better and ask for more from our society. These issues are more important to me than a football team's name, and that's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. To those of us still affected by racial discrimination, it's sad to hear people like yourself brush it off and say we should just rise above it. What do you think we've been trying to do this whole time? I understand your values are the complete opposite and you'd rather protect a football team's name and go with the majority. I guess we'll just leave it at that. It's a waste of my time and yours to try to make you understand how hurtful this issue is to me and my people when all it takes is a football team's name to be prioritized higher. There is no way you're going to open your mind enough to ever have any understanding of what it's like to be racially discriminated against and how meaningful racial slurs can be.

 

[Rathman44]

The thing is....who cares? Who is it hurting? Its a team name. I'm not trying to speak for you or act like I have walked in your shoes, but just arguing that there's no reason to be bent about it.

I think we all understand that its a relic of a time in America when it was OK to belittle or disrespect other races including native Americans, and that time is long past - I think the vast majority of Americans have no negative feelings toward your group, and in fact most have sympathy for how they were mistreated over the history of the country. I don't see that the Redskins name is encouraging any negative feelings toward native Americans, and don't see the harm its doing.

In fact I would offer that its something to take pride in. My line is always that they don't name teams the Chickens - team mascots are usually things that are to be revered or have a warrior spirit that is not at all negative. Its all how you look at it I suppose. As a purebred Irishman, I've always looked at the silly little Fighting Irish mascot this way - the Irish were mistreated and looked down upon in America once upon a time as well - not like natives, but it was bad - but the team name was about a tough group that you didn't want to mess with, not a joke or insult.

My $.02.

Haha, in fact, that's exactly what you are doing! I love it.

"I mean, I'm not trying to call you an idiot, but you're an idiot."

 

[NinerSickness]

I believe you that the name is hurtful. You don't have to convince me of that. But I also believe that if you're going to do something to piss off a majority of people, you've got to have an damn worthy cause to do so. Your feelings being hurt by a football team's name isn't enough for me to take up the cause. The punishment has to fit the crime. Do you know how much money it would cost the Redskins to change the name of the team? I don't think they should have to spend that much money bacause of your hurt feelings. Just don't watch Redskins games & tell your friends to do likewise; that's pretty much all you can do.

Second of all, I don't agree that just because you say "Redskin" is a racial slur and you're Native that it's always a racial slur. You don't own the English language. What if another Native says it's not a racial slur? 3 of my Native American friends just got done telling me last night that they think the people calling for the name to be changed is a load of crap & they aren't the least bit offended by the name. One of 'em is even a Redskins fan. I think your premise, "a slur is a slur," is flawed.

 

[Gatorchip]

I believe you that the name is hurtful. You don't have to convince me of that. But I also believe that if you're going to do something to piss off a majority of people, you've got to have an damn worthy cause to do so. Your feelings being hurt by a football team's name isn't enough for me to take up the cause. The punishment has to fit the crime. Do you know how much money it would cost the Redskins to change the name of the team? I don't think they should have to spend that much money bacause of your hurt feelings. Just don't watch Redskins games & tell your friends to do likewise; that's pretty much all you can do.

Second of all, I don't agree that just because you say "Redskin" is a racial slur and you're Native that it's always a racial slur. You don't own the English language. What if another Native says it's not a racial slur? 3 of my Native American friends just got done telling me last night that they think the people calling for the name to be changed is a load of crap & they aren't the least bit offended by the name. One of 'em is even a Redskins fan. I think your premise, "a slur is a slur," is flawed.

Who cares how much it would cost if it's the right thing to do?

I figured you 9er fans would be more open minded about things like this since you're from a city known for having a high population of homosexuals.

If SF changed their name to the Pillow Biters, there would be an uproar. Why?

 

[NinerSickness]

Who cares how much it would cost if it's the right thing to do?

Pretty easy to say someone else should have to spend money they earned isn't it? And I don't agree it is the right thing to do. I think it's the wrong thing to do.

I figured you 9er fans would be more open minded about things like this since you're from a city known for having a high population of homosexuals.

The term "open minded" is an intellectual non-sequitur. People only say someone is being "open minded" if the "open minded" person agrees with them.

 

[Gatorchip]

Pretty easy to say someone else should have to spend money they earned isn't it? And I don't agree it is the right thing to do. I think it's the wrong thing to do.



The term "open minded" is an intellectual non-sequitur. People only say someone is being "open minded" if the "open minded" person agrees with them.

The fans will be spending the money too, not just one of the most profitable organizations. Dan Snyder won't lose a dime. A racial slur for a team name is wrong... it doesn't matter if it bothers you or not.

 

[NinerSickness]

The fans will be spending the money too, not just one of the most profitable organizations. Dan Snyder won't lose a dime.

You're misunderstanding some economic principle here. Tickets & merchandise are already at the peak level of market efficiency for the Redskins. They wouldn't raise their prices if the team name changes. In fact, they'd probably lower the price on merchandise because its market value would plummet. Snyder would absolutely lose millions upon millions of dimes. If he wants to spend millions of dollars on some worthy cause, I think he'd be much better off sending it to people who make mosquito nets for 3rd world countries.

A racial slur for a team name is wrong... it doesn't matter if it bothers you or not..

I don't agree that it's a racial slur. I believe context matters. Most people agree with me on this one so far.

 

[-AC-]

Context, really does not matter...

A racial slur, is a racial slur no matter how you try to manipulate the term or meaning...