OT - 11/13/2015 Paris

[Bloody Brian Burke]

See that's what I worry about. Those attacks on areas that are vulnerable. You aren't getting into ANY government buildings at this point, but raiding the back door of the 9:30 club while the Foo Fighters are playing isn't outside the realm of possibility.

It is. And it is what it is - you obviously can't secure everywhere. But the way these assholes work, the things they need to do to procure their weapons and to plan their attacks, they can almost always be prevented and these days, at least on this side of the ocean, they are.

 

[forty_three]

Then find another one. It will show similar results whether you call it war or conflict or terrorism or whatever you want to call it.

Like the wikipedia article with death toll numbers from just Iraq that I put in there?

Is that your whole argument, that the current state of world conflict is not as bad as it was during world wars 1 and 2 therefore everything is fine?

And I like your style, just disliking everything I post. What happened to you?

One thing people really aren't talking about, and I think this is being done on purpose by French officials (in terms of them, especially Hollande, talking tough and keeping the focus on retaliation and prosecution), is that this is a fucking terrible failure of intelligence. This was a large plot, involving a dozen+ people (some of whom were already being monitored or had been in the past), planned internationally, using weapons purchased abroad. For something of this magnitude to be able to happen indicates some really fucking shitty intelligence work, the likes of which was supposed to be impossible after 9/11 (let alone the Charlie Hebdo attack earlier this year).

Having said that, American intelligence is probably as thorough and airtight as its ever been, and DC is essentially a police state for the most part. Obviously anything is possible but it would really be shocking if a plot to carry out a similar attack in the States were to ever get past the planning stages before being thwarted.

Looks like a lot of the planning was done in Belgium, so while there were some serious intel failures, you can't lay it all at France's feet. The weapons and resources were all gathered elsewhere. All nation states have to agree that they will share intel, and that's a very shaky subject.

Agreed, it would be harder to do in the USA, but as long as there is a small place to hide and plan anything is possible. As long as you have a sympathetic group willing to host and hide you, you can do it. The amount of warnings coming in all over make it nearly impossible to investigate every single potential actor. Some will get missed.

This isn't really small-scale though - they had large-capacity small arms and multiple explosive units. The death toll here easily could've been double and it was already a high casualty count as it is.

The two bombers at the stadium had tickets and could have been in the stands when they detonated. They were turned away and hit the button and "only" killed a security guard. Those two alone could have killed thousands.

 

[dash]

It was very fortunate that security found the explosive vest on the suicide bomber that had a ticket to the Germany - France game or the death toll could have been much higher.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

Looks like a lot of the planning was done in Belgium, so while there were some serious intel failures, you can't lay it all at France's feet. The weapons and resources were all gathered elsewhere. All nation states have to agree that they will share intel, and that's a very shaky subject.

Agreed, it would be harder to do in the USA, but as long as there is a small place to hide and plan anything is possible. As long as you have a sympathetic group willing to host and hide you, you can do it. The amount of warnings coming in all over make it nearly impossible to investigate every single potential actor. Some will get missed.



The two bombers at the stadium had tickets and could have been in the stands when they detonated. They were turned away and hit the button and "only" killed a security guard. Those two alone could have killed thousands.

True, but I'm guessing Belgian and French intelligence have a pretty open intelligence relationship. At least I would hope so.

 

[forty_three]

True, but I'm guessing Belgian and French intelligence have a pretty open intelligence relationship. At least I would hope so.

All evidence to the contrary. In the span of a weekend, Belgium conducted raids and arrested like 100 people? Found all kinds of weapons? If they got that many that fast, it seems they might have had an idea something was up, they just missed what.

Turkey and Greece also missed a little bit along the way.

Hindsight is always 20/20 though.

 

[elocomotive]

Like the wikipedia article with death toll numbers from just Iraq that I put in there?

Is that your whole argument, that the current state of world conflict is not as bad as it was during world wars 1 and 2 therefore everything is fine?

And I like your style, just disliking everything I post. What happened to you?

Where did I say everything is fine?

You trolled me repeatedly, 43. Didn't apologize for it. What happened to you?

 

[forty_three]

Where did I say everything is fine?

You trolled me repeatedly, 43. Didn't apologize for it. What happened to you?

I preferred to address it off board, but you went and got yourself banned from using PMs, so I couldn't. You blew way out of proportion me ribbing someone I thought was a friend (I have been known to do that - except dash. I would never besmirch his fine choice in automobile). And continue to use whatever you think happened as reason to belittle me and act like I did something egregious to insult you and 9 generations of your family.

So yeah, I am sorry you took what I thought was business as usual ribbing as something more. You're letting it get to you a little too much.

 

[elocomotive]

I preferred to address it off board, but you went and got yourself banned from using PMs, so I couldn't.

That wasn't my fault, but thanks for bringing it up and making me feel worse about it.

So yeah, I am sorry you took what I thought was business as usual ribbing as something more. You're letting it get to you a little too much.

Something you could have said a week ago when fully aware I couldn't use PMs and certainly didn't require a private message to accomplish.

You trolled me and then rubbed it in more. The first I could have thought, 'maybe I'm taking this the wrong way.' But not after the second... or the third...

And for the record, "I am sorry you took..." is how shitty apologies start.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

2 minutes to each of you for unsportsmanlike conduct !!!

 

[forty_three]

2 minutes to each of you for unsportsmanlike conduct !!!

View attachment 52747

I'm a goalie, who is serving it for me?

 

[forty_three]

That wasn't my fault, but thanks for bringing it up and making me feel worse about it.



Something you could have said a week ago when fully aware I couldn't use PMs and certainly didn't require a private message to accomplish.

You trolled me and then rubbed it in more. The first I could have thought, 'maybe I'm taking this the wrong way.' But not after the second... or the third...

And for the record, "I am sorry you took..." is how shitty apologies start.

What was the third? I thought I only did it twice.

But I am getting older.

*hand extended*

Truce?

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

All evidence to the contrary. In the span of a weekend, Belgium conducted raids and arrested like 100 people? Found all kinds of weapons? If they got that many that fast, it seems they might have had an idea something was up, they just missed what.

Turkey and Greece also missed a little bit along the way.

Hindsight is always 20/20 though.

I just figured those raids were conducted based on evidence gathered after the attacks.

Just gonna have to wait for whatever report into this is written.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

I'm a goalie, who is serving it for me?

you should feel enough SHAME that youll WANT to serve your own penalty!!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...rum--serves-own-penalty--video-021838058.html

 

[forty_three]

you should feel enough SHAME that youll WANT to serve your own penalty!!!

Maine goalie gets involved in scrum, serves own penalty (Video)

We just voted him out of the union.

 

[forty_three]

I just figured those raids were conducted based on evidence gathered after the attacks.

Just gonna have to wait for whatever report into this is written.

As I understand it, and a grain of salt is urged because it's all news reports, they decided to raid because the lifted a print off one of the Bataclan bombers who tied back to a resident of Brussels. They discovered he had rented two cars, one of which was found with AKs and spent casings in Paris. The French told the Belgians they wanted to know more and three days later 100 are in custody.

Either that's the luck of the century, or the Belgians had a lot of these guys under watch already.

 

[Bloody Brian Burke]

As I understand it, and a grain of salt is urged because it's all news reports, they decided to raid because the lifted a print off one of the Bataclan bombers who tied back to a resident of Brussels. They discovered he had rented two cars, one of which was found with AKs and spent casings in Paris. The French told the Belgians they wanted to know more and three days later 100 are in custody.

Either that's the luck of the century, or the Belgians had a lot of these guys under watch already.

In that case it would definitely be an intelligence failure on their end.

Either way, the scope of this thing made it seem like someone (or many someones) really dropped the ball.

 

[elocomotive]

What was the third? I thought I only did it twice.

But I am getting older.

*hand extended*

Truce?

Alright, man. I felt like you knew me well enough to know when I am being serious and when I'm not and that you were trolling me and it honestly hurt my feelings a little, especially after I made it clear I wasn't joking and that this was something central to who I am. I've never taken a gig for a corporation or chased an ambulance. I've worked VERY hard for the public and for good causes. I've helped shape policy in several states for things I believe in. And I've paid(/am still paying) A LOT of money to be able to do so. So it's something that gets old at times. If I didn't know you or you were some dipshit on the politics board, I wouldn't care. Your original post was fine, but the follow ups seemed mean spirited and I didn't expect that from you. That said, I'm prone to being overly sensitive at times. So it's probably a little of both.

In any case, truce. *hand shaken*

 

[dash]

 

[Winged_Wheel88]

Is this a bad time to say that I think both NHL goaltenders and lawyers make too much money?

 

[elocomotive]

^Kidding, Dash. Haha.


Back to the topic at hand, it bothers me to hear so many governors talking about refusing to allow refugees to enter this country (not that they even legally can). First off, many of them allegedly govern from Christian values - last I checked loving thy brother and charity are pretty big ones. Second, we are a country founded by people fleeing religious persecution. We, of all nations, should understand and empathize with the plight of these individuals. Lastly, here is a quote - "I am sure glad we went through that period of fear and xenophobia, it greatly benefited our society" said nobody in history fucking ever.

Freedom comes with risks and fear. That's part of the deal. DC is a target? You won't change my values, the charity in my heart, or my freedom to move, assemble, speak, etc. Obviously we understand there can be some risks with that. But if we don't step up to those challenges, then our experiment as a nation has failed. So when you here someone talking about not allowing people desperate for respite from the horrors of war and poverty, understand you are dealing with a coward. You are dealing with someone who doesn't think we can handle complex challenges. You are dealing with someone who is too scared of what they don't know to trust and believe in the values that they do.

Apparently some governors and government leaders need reminding of that. So if you live in these states - Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida (of course), Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, New Hampshire, Ohio, and Wisconsin - you might want to send an e-mail and remind your governor what charity and freedom really means.

We need to stomp out these radicals. In the meantime, we need to keep our hearts and doors open to those in need.