Off Topic Lounge

[countryroads316]

yea after Cousins starting getting hit he became gun shy that's when all the interceptions started happening hopefully now that we upgraded the o-line and o-line coach we get better results

 

[redskinsfan]

KC threw picks when he was rushed . RG3 held it for sacks

look at the film the offense ran much better under KC then any qb on our roster

we are in year 4 of RG3 the words "potential " greater ceiling " etc should be in the rear view mirror . his best advantage was his legs and when they fail , which is often we are looking at a wishbone qb who cant wish isnt durable and is another hit away from the IR

again look at the film , Rg3 is pedestrian in virtually every aspect of qb play .his pocket passing is that of joe webb and tavaris jackson sprinkled in with a pinch of terrell pryor

that is what he IS . potential in year 4 is for losers he should be at dominating not "trying to pass" qbacking 101 . so far he has been a colossal bust who has a hard time keeping colt mccoy from taking his job

so far RG3 has the upside of kordell stewart at WR becasue he is an embarrassment at qb and worst of all he is a spoiled diva who slacks in the class room and so far is un coachable

he is pretty good at lifting weights

That's because he was forced into a system that was clearly not suited for his current talents. He has got plenty of raw talent including a rocket arm, raw intelligence, football IQ, running ability, etc. that's not just my opinion it's Scot's and a whole lot of outsiders as well. One big reason for RGIII's decline has been his egotistical demand to immediately convert to a pocket passer when he clearly couldn't and Gruden's happiness in returning the favor.

 

[skinsdad62]

That's because he was forced into a system that was clearly not suited for his current talents. He has got plenty of raw talent including a rocket arm, raw intelligence, football IQ, running ability, etc. that's not just my opinion it's Scot's and a whole lot of outsiders as well. One big reason for RGIII's decline has been his egotistical demand to immediately convert to a pocket passer when he clearly couldn't and Gruden's happiness in returning the favor.

what football IQ hold hold staring at open wr cant throw it wait sack wash rinse repeat

running ability ? not since acl no rushing tds in 2 years

rocket arm ? without an ounce of touch

raw talent ? in year 4 we are talking about raw talent ?

scotty's giving him a shot because he has no real option

and he wont be anything in the NFL if he cant function in the pocket , read defenses , take a hit , throw the ball away , stop reading defenses at the speed of a sun dial

so far he is a huge BUST

 

[redskinsfan]

what football IQ hold hold staring at open wr cant throw it wait sack wash rinse repeat

running ability ? not since acl no rushing tds in 2 years

rocket arm ? without an ounce of touch

raw talent ? in year 4 we are talking about raw talent ?

scotty's giving him a shot because he has no real option

and he wont be anything in the NFL if he cant function in the pocket , read defenses , take a hit , throw the ball away , stop reading defenses at the speed of a sun dial

so far he is a huge BUST

You are confusing production with potential and upside. The guy won ROY in 2012 and he did that by more than just running the ball. His 20 / 5 TD /INT ratio ought to tell you that. And he's got a lot lot lot more touch than you give him credit for. For instance, he's got a great deep touch, something almost everyone agrees on. While his production tailed off in the past two years, there were reasons for that, all of which were fixable. And if you think Scotty is just going with him because he's got no other option, I've got a bridge to sell you. Listen to NFL personnel guys like Andrew Brandt talk about what type of potential he's got and the skillset he's got. The question is whether he'll be a willing student and whether Gruden's/Cavanaugh will be able to phase (not force or rush) him into being a pocket passer.

 

[Stymietee]

First, let me say that even if DC trades KC to NE, the odds are astronomically against him turning Brady into Wally Pipp.

That said, the most interesting aspect of this recurring argument over our QB's is its lack of general perspective. Think about this for one second, please. SM by acclaim is the first legitimate GM that this team has had since Casserly. What was his assessment of the team that has surrounded our QBs? SOFT while Lacking size and athleticism to be competitive at the NFL level. (An extremely close paraphrase).
I hate to be the one to tell you guys this, but any assessment of our QB's prior to his arrival is quite frankly a waste of time and effort.

Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that 2012 season, but before you do remember the offense run then was a hybrid gimmicky one. Every offense since was ill equipped to make the change to a pro style one.Beyond that, we've not had a HC nor adequate staff who appeared to know or currently knows that with these QB's less is more (see: Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson) until now and even now Gruden is on the clock.

I'm hoping for his sake that, he turns into Pete Carroll 2.0 and realizes that what he has are two guys that can be extremely effective when the bulk of the work is done on first and second downs by others on the team. SM has begun that process by bringing in players with the abilities to get that work done, but like I said, it has just begun and so has the process that puts our QB's in position to be honestly judged.

 

[redskinsfan]

First, let me say that even if DC trades KC to NE, the odds are astronomically against him turning Brady into Wally Pipp.

That said, the most interesting aspect of this recurring argument over our QB's is its lack of general perspective. Think about this for one second, please. SM by acclaim is the first legitimate GM that this team has had since Casserly. What was his assessment of the team that has surrounded our QBs? SOFT while Lacking size and athleticism to be competitive at the NFL level. (An extremely close paraphrase).
I hate to be the one to tell you guys this, but any assessment of our QB's prior to his arrival is quite frankly a waste of time and effort.

Yeah, yeah, tell me all about that 2012 season, but before you do remember the offense run then was a hybrid gimmicky one. Every offense since was ill equipped to make the change to a pro style one.Beyond that, we've not had a HC nor adequate staff who appeared to know or currently knows that with these QB's less is more (see: Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson) until now and even now Gruden is on the clock.

I'm hoping for his sake that, he turns into Pete Carroll 2.0 and realizes that what he has are two guys that can be extremely effective when the bulk of the work is done on first and second downs by others on the team. SM has begun that process by bringing in players with the abilities to get that work done, but like I said, it has just begun and so has the process that puts our QB's in position to be honestly judged.

That is certainly a possibility and one I raised in a post evaluating Russell Wilson's "prowess" as a QB. In fact, when you really look at Wilson, he's, at best, a pedestrian passing QB. (This is probably the reason why there's a huge showdown in contract negotiations between Wilson and the Seahawks right now.) RGIII is certainly a much better passing QB than is Wilson, and if you can win with someone like him, you can certainly do so with someone like Griffin.

But because Griffin has talent and upside, McCloughan, Gruden, and Callahan have to come up with a gameplay to mold Griffin into a pocket passer. This will require patience on the parts of those three (especially Gruden), but also will require Griffin to be a willing student. McCloughan has given Griffin a huge vote of confidence by picking up his fifth year option. Now, it's everybody's job to work together to tap into all that potential Robert has. The guy clearly has both the mental and physical skills to excel. He now needs a system to help him with his learning curve to get him there. And he's hopefully realized this isn't going to be about him or on his timetable. If he really wants to be like Aaron Rodgers, he should know that Rodgers sat for three years fixing a whole bunch of flaws he had. But the Rodgers analogue should also teach Redskins fans a lesson as well: Rodgers had to learn from scratch to get where he's at right now. For Robert, "scratch" is unfortunately something that may begin right now. And that will take some patience.

 

[Stymietee]

That is certainly a possibility and one I raised in a post evaluating Russell Wilson's "prowess" as a QB. In fact, when you really look at Wilson, he's, at best, a pedestrian passing QB. (This is probably the reason why there's a huge showdown in contract negotiations between Wilson and the Seahawks right now.) RGIII is certainly a much better passing QB than is Wilson, and if you can win with someone like him, you can certainly do so with someone like Griffin.

But because Griffin has talent and upside, McCloughan, Gruden, and Callahan have to come up with a gameplay to mold Griffin into a pocket passer. This will require patience on the parts of those three (especially Gruden), but also will require Griffin to be a willing student. McCloughan has given Griffin a huge vote of confidence by picking up his fifth year option. Now, it's everybody's job to work together to tap into all that potential Robert has. The guy clearly has both the mental and physical skills to excel. He now needs a system to help him with his learning curve to get him there. And he's hopefully realized this isn't going to be about him or on his timetable. If he really wants to be like Aaron Rodgers, he should know that Rodgers sat for three years fixing a whole bunch of flaws he had. But the Rodgers analogue should also teach Redskins fans a lesson as well: Rodgers had to learn from scratch to get where he's at right now. For Robert, "scratch" is unfortunately something that may begin right now. And that will take some patience.

It is so good to know that there are like minded fans of this team. Your response is appreciated, thanks.

What's in the water here in DC, every sports team drafted young extremely talented players and the town went crazy......that is until......they single handedly could not win games or qualify for playoffs without being one and done. Of the four major professional teams, the football team was the very last to realize the importance of surrounding that young talent with young professional grade talent that is not just able to win games, but challenge for titles. It is very interesting that there are people who want to judge our QB's when school is just starting.

 

[j_y19]

It is so good to know that there are like minded fans of this team. Your response is appreciated, thanks.

What's in the water here in DC, every sports team drafted young extremely talented players and the town went crazy......that is until......they single handedly could not win games or qualify for playoffs without being one and done. Of the four major professional teams, the football team was the very last to realize the importance of surrounding that young talent with young professional grade talent that is not just able to win games, but challenge for titles. It is very interesting that there are people who want to judge our QB's when school is just starting.

While I agree with much of what you and Redskins Fan have posted, it must be pointed out that school has been in session for 3 years now, but we haven't really had a willing student. That is a huge difference between Wilson and RG3. RG3 came into the league with the belief that he knew it all and he knew how he should be used. Thus he resisted much of what two coaching regimes have tried to instill. Did these regimes force feed too much as you guys have pointed out? Maybe so. But lets not act like RG3 is an innocent party in his failures over the last 2 seasons.

 

[skinsdad62]

RW is a far better qb then RG3 and the stats back that up 1000 times over

RG3 has done nothing since his rookie year

 

[TxHeat]

I think he'll be suspended, how many games will be the magic question. They will need a backup for Jimmy G because right now his backup is some guy drafted by the Rams last year from SMU (Garrett Gilbert ).

 

[SoCalWizFan]

I know that this thread went off in another direction, but the original topic was the Pats giving up a relatively high pick for Cousins (e.g. higher than 4th round).

First of all - it is very likely that the Brady suspension will be relatively minimal. It is only certain members of the media throwing out all of this 6-8 week type suspensions. Secondly - they used a 2nd rounder on Garoppolo so I would figure that he would be their likely fill-in & as the poster mentioned above they would likely then be looking for just another backup. Given this factor & the fact that SM stated that there basically are no current trading partners for a Cousins deal I see no way that the team will even get a 4th for the guy - let alone something higher.

This is all about perception. It doesn't necessarily mean that Cousins might not still have a decent future somewhere. However - most teams likely believe that he is not ready now given his tendency to make mistakes at critical times.

 

[reptec101]

However - most teams likely believe that he is not ready now given his tendency to make mistakes at critical times.

Not comparing KC to Manning by any stretch but if they felt like that about Manning and his many mistakes as a rookie he'd never gotten a 2nd year start. Point I'm making is that KC ill-timed passes has more to do with playing only 5 or 6 games and not over all skill sets. I'm still high on KC and hope he gets another chance here. The team moved down the field under him more so than any other QB recently has. He has already proven he can succeed under pressure. Don't let those INT's decide your idea on this guy.

If they ever made a trade (which they won't) without another opportunity they would be fools, cause RG3 with his knees and mental state under center is highly in question. Trade Colt if anybody.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

KC threw picks when he was rushed . RG3 held it for sacks

look at the film the offense ran much better under KC then any qb on our roster

we are in year 4 of RG3 the words "potential " greater ceiling " etc should be in the rear view mirror . his best advantage was his legs and when they fail , which is often we are looking at a wishbone qb who cant wish isnt durable and is another hit away from the IR

again look at the film , Rg3 is pedestrian in virtually every aspect of qb play .his pocket passing is that of joe webb and tavaris jackson sprinkled in with a pinch of terrell pryor

that is what he IS . potential in year 4 is for losers he should be at dominating not "trying to pass" qbacking 101 . so far he has been a colossal bust who has a hard time keeping colt mccoy from taking his job

so far RG3 has the upside of kordell stewart at WR becasue he is an embarrassment at qb and worst of all he is a spoiled diva who slacks in the class room and so far is un coachable

he is pretty good at lifting weights

While I obviously agree with you about Griffin to some extent you need to slow down when you put him in the same category as Joe Web and Tavaris Jackson. Griff has huge problems with feeling pressure and obviously delivering the ball. But he didn't make a habit at throwing a 5 yard out at the feet of receivers on 3rd and 4 like those guys did. I will continue to hang what little hope I have left for Griffin on the fact that he can throw the ball very very well. He hit what he is aiming at far far better than Joe Webb or Kordell Stewart.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

RW is a far better qb then RG3 and the stats back that up 1000 times over

RG3 has done nothing since his rookie year

Again I agree with you that today, right now, Kirk is the better option. But looking at the stats I see the following when comparing Griffin's 2013 stats with Kirk's career numbers. I'm using 2013 to dispute the notion that post 2012 Griffin has done nothing and I'm using Kirk's career numbers as they represent nearly the same number of games as Griffin's '13 season.

Griff 2013 Season: G: 13 Comp 60.1% Aver 7.0 Yds/game: 246.4 16 TD 12 INT Rating: 82.2

Cousins Career: G: 14 Comp: 59.% Aver 7.9 Yds/game: 216 18 TD 19 Int Rating: 77.5

I just don't see how the stats back you that up 1,000 times over. And this doesn't even consider the plays Griffin makes with his runs. But of course the stats do not factor in sacks taken and obviously Cousins gets a huge edge there.

Robert Griffin III: Career Stats at NFL.com
Kirk Cousins: Career Stats at NFL.com

 

[redskinsfan]

RW is a far better qb then RG3 and the stats back that up 1000 times over

RG3 has done nothing since his rookie year

He is not a better passing QB than RGIII or most other QBs in the league for that matter. The Seahawks were 27th in passing yards and similar in stats regarding TD passes and other basic passing metrics. If you want to believe that Wilson is somehow a better passing QB than just about anyone in the league other people like Briany Hoyer, be my guest. The guy is a product of a great system, and the Seahawks are pretty wise to the fact given the protracted contract talks they're having with him.

 

[redskinsfan]

Again I agree with you that today, right now, Kirk is the better option. But looking at the stats I see the following when comparing Griffin's 2013 stats with Kirk's career numbers. I'm using 2013 to dispute the notion that post 2012 Griffin has done nothing and I'm using Kirk's career numbers as they represent nearly the same number of games as Griffin's '13 season.

Griff 2013 Season: G: 13 Comp 60.1% Aver 7.0 Yds/game: 246.4 16 TD 12 INT Rating: 82.2

Cousins Career: G: 14 Comp: 59.% Aver 7.9 Yds/game: 216 18 TD 19 Int Rating: 77.5

I just don't see how the stats back you that up 1,000 times over. And this doesn't even consider the plays Griffin makes with his runs. But of course the stats do not factor in sacks taken and obviously Cousins gets a huge edge there.

Robert Griffin III: Career Stats at NFL.com
Kirk Cousins: Career Stats at NFL.com

Again, the issue isn't production anymore, it's upside and potential. If you craft a system that caters to the strengths of each QB, who'll do better? While there are other factors bearing on this issue, generally speaking, that answer is pretty easy.

 

[redskinsfan]

While I agree with much of what you and Redskins Fan have posted, it must be pointed out that school has been in session for 3 years now, but we haven't really had a willing student. That is a huge difference between Wilson and RG3. RG3 came into the league with the belief that he knew it all and he knew how he should be used. Thus he resisted much of what two coaching regimes have tried to instill. Did these regimes force feed too much as you guys have pointed out? Maybe so. But lets not act like RG3 is an innocent party in his failures over the last 2 seasons.

He is certainly not an innocent party and I've pointed that out many times in the past. RGIII needs to start doing what he's told and stop listening to others like family members for football advice.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Again, the issue isn't production anymore, it's upside and potential. If you craft a system that caters to the strengths of each QB, who'll do better? While there are other factors bearing on this issue, generally speaking, that answer is pretty easy.

Oh I agree with you, upside and potential is the only reason I'm still in the RGIII business. My point was to dispute Dad's claim that Kirk's stats blow away Griffin post 2012.

 

[redskinsfan]

Oh I agree with you, upside and potential is the only reason I'm still in the RGIII business. My point was to dispute Dad's claim that Kirk's stats blow away Griffin post 2012.

Agreed. And if you listen to respected talent evaluators on RGIII, you'd be really surprised to hear how up they are on him. Despite having a rough couple of years, he still has the skillset and IQ to become a franchise QB.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Not comparing KC to Manning by any stretch but if they felt like that about Manning and his many mistakes as a rookie he'd never gotten a 2nd year start. Point I'm making is that KC ill-timed passes has more to do with playing only 5 or 6 games and not over all skill sets. I'm still high on KC and hope he gets another chance here. The team moved down the field under him more so than any other QB recently has. He has already proven he can succeed under pressure. Don't let those INT's decide your idea on this guy.

If they ever made a trade (which they won't) without another opportunity they would be fools, cause RG3 with his knees and mental state under center is highly in question. Trade Colt if anybody.

Look - I would be thrilled if either of these guys succeeded over the next several years because I am a Redskins fan & not simply an RG3 or Cousins fan. Cousins has had lots of chances & to date has never really won a clutch game except for that Ravens game where he only had to play a few series.

It is not simply the INTs. It is the fact that - until proven otherwise - they guy just shows a tendency to choke down the stretch. You never really say that about someone like Manning. Also - he doesn't just throw the occasional pick - he throws pick sixes, multi-game INTs, etc & just about any coach will not stand for that for more than a game or two. Remember - he didn't simply lose his job to RG3 - he first lost his job to Colt McCoy. Yes - he can move the ball down the field, but late in the game you just can't trust the guy.

This obviously is not simply a matter of fans thinking this way since I don't see any other NFL teams beating down the Redskins door to get the guy via trade & he probably could be had for a 5th round pick. He might evolve to be starting material, but I would hardly say that is a given.