Off Season Thread

[cdumler7]

This is just a silly comment cd. Hey, lets take all the star players from other teams and see where they stand?
Let's take Miller away from the Broncos core, would they still be considered a top unit? Hell Nah!!

Well Brandon Marshall has graded out as a top-10 ILB in the NFL. And the Raiders play a 4-3 under for their base defense meaning most of Mack's time is spent as a DE not LB where Von is the opposite playing in a 3-4 defense. So not a silly comment when the biggest reason they make the list barely plays the position.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Well Brandon Marshall has graded out as a top-10 ILB in the NFL. And the Raiders play a 4-3 under for their base defense meaning most of Mack's time is spent as a DE not LB where Von is the opposite playing in a 3-4 defense. So not a silly comment when the biggest reason they make the list barely plays the position.

It don't matter where Marshall is rated. The only reason the Broncos are a top LB core is Miller. Take miller out of that core and it's just a plain run of the mill LB core.. Same goes for the RAIDERS with Mack.. The only reason both the RAIDERS and Broncos are rated top 5 is indeed Mack and Miller.. Ya know the only player in NFL history to be voted All Pro at LB/DE Mack?

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

cd, i take it you don't agree with NFLN's rank of the RAIDER LB core right??

Do you agree with them on Miller being ranked 2 ahead of the All Pro LB/DE DPOY MackAttack?

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

So the RAIDERS make Big Gabe Jackson the 3rd highest paid G in the league!! The dude is a straight up BEAST!! Sooooo who said the RAIDERS can't sign anymore of our draft picks? Hmmmmmm

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Ose.. Hudson.. Big Gabe
Is there a better 3 in the league? Hell Nah!!

 

[cdumler7]

It don't matter where Marshall is rated. The only reason the Broncos are a top LB core is Miller. Take miller out of that core and it's just a plain run of the mill LB core.. Same goes for the RAIDERS with Mack.. The only reason both the RAIDERS and Broncos are rated top 5 is indeed Mack and Miller.. Ya know the only player in NFL history to be voted All Pro at LB/DE Mack?

But see what I'm talking about is 2 different positions. The Broncos play a 3-4 defense where the Raiders play a 4-3. So Von Miller is listed as an OLB and plays that position. Yes he comes up on the LOS on passing situations but he is almost always still standing up instead of in a 3-point stance. Where Mack is more of a 4-3 DE playing with his hand in the dirt on a more regular basis.

 

[cdumler7]

cd, i take it you don't agree with NFLN's rank of the RAIDER LB core right??

Do you agree with them on Miller being ranked 2 ahead of the All Pro LB/DE DPOY MackAttack?

I do think Miller is a better all-around player than Mack and has proven to show up in bigger moments. When the lights are brightest is when Miller is at his best. Mack hasn't shown that yet. He has time to prove he can handle those times but right now that isn't the case.

I think that is a big reason players voted Miller ahead of Mack. When you absolutely need somebody to make a play on defense who would you want on your team? Well Miller has proven he loves those moments. Now understand right now here is how I have the top-3 defensive players ranked...1) Aaron Donald (always a big fan of guys who can get it done up the middle) 2) Von Miller and 3) Khalil Mack. I have all 3 of those guys very closely rated and wouldn't be upset to see them in any order.

 

[cdumler7]

So the RAIDERS make Big Gabe Jackson the 3rd highest paid G in the league!! The dude is a straight up BEAST!! Sooooo who said the RAIDERS can't sign anymore of our draft picks? Hmmmmmm

Nobody said this. This is a good signing for the Raiders. At least this is what I have said though of when they get Carr, Jackson, Mack, and Cooper all signed that will be maybe close to 50% of the Raiders cap wrapped up in just 4 players. It makes it difficult to do anything other than add talent through the draft after that. The Raiders in the next couple of years will become a very top heavy team cap wise. Teams that have done that have struggled to win Super Bowls as depth has become one of the biggest keys to winning these days. It isn't a matter of if there will be injuries but when and if there is such a huge drop off to the next guy then your team has a huge weakness.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

But see what I'm talking about is 2 different positions. The Broncos play a 3-4 defense where the Raiders play a 4-3. So Von Miller is listed as an OLB and plays that position. Yes he comes up on the LOS on passing situations but he is almost always still standing up instead of in a 3-point stance. Where Mack is more of a 4-3 DE playing with his hand in the dirt on a more regular basis.

Yeah i know. I was just saying the only reason the RAIDERS and Broncos are rated top 5 is cuz they have two of the most explosive and best players in the game that play LB.. In Macks case LB/DE
You take those players out of those cores and those ranks drop, simple.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I do think Miller is a better all-around player than Mack and has proven to show up in bigger moments. When the lights are brightest is when Miller is at his best. Mack hasn't shown that yet. He has time to prove he can handle those times but right now that isn't the case.

I think that is a big reason players voted Miller ahead of Mack. When you absolutely need somebody to make a play on defense who would you want on your team? Well Miller has proven he loves those moments. Now understand right now here is how I have the top-3 defensive players ranked...1) Aaron Donald (always a big fan of guys who can get it done up the middle) 2) Von Miller and 3) Khalil Mack. I have all 3 of those guys very closely rated and wouldn't be upset to see them in any order.

In no way Miller is the better overall player cd. Mack is an All Pro at LB and DE while Miller is not. Miller is not in Macks league anymore when it comes to overall game, it's really not even fair to compare them anymore really..
Miller no doubt is a great player but Mack is on another level now and only getting better, while Miller has peaked already..

And let's not forget that Mack too won us games. The thing is Miller has been doing it for a long time and has had some great players around him to help him boost those numbers up.. They ranked him 2 out of respect and not by being the better player.. I mean when you have a lock down secondary and the QB has nowhere to go, what do you think happens? Exactly.. Again, Miller is a great player, but Mack is better.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Nobody said this. This is a good signing for the Raiders. At least this is what I have said though of when they get Carr, Jackson, Mack, and Cooper all signed that will be maybe close to 50% of the Raiders cap wrapped up in just 4 players. It makes it difficult to do anything other than add talent through the draft after that. The Raiders in the next couple of years will become a very top heavy team cap wise. Teams that have done that have struggled to win Super Bowls as depth has become one of the biggest keys to winning these days. It isn't a matter of if there will be injuries but when and if there is such a huge drop off to the next guy then your team has a huge weakness.

The cap keeps going up cd.
Then you factor in how the deals are structured man. There's a lot of ways to get around the cap dude im sure.
These players the RAIDERS are locking up are foundation pieces, the core of the team dude.. Without players like those you picking top 10 in the draft..

Next year players like Smith, Amerson, Nelson, Howard, etc will be coming off the books, That's a lot of money man. And the RAIDERS have young players to replace them on the roster already..
The key to the whole thing is good drafting.. Here's an example? The RAIDERS feared WR core has only one drafted player on it? Coop! Crabs we picked up for cheap, the rest are UDFAs. The RBs? Washington in the 5th, Richard and Olawale are UDFA, BeastMode we got cheap and Hood in the 7th..

Now will the RAIDERS be forced to let some good players go in the future? Good chance just like other teams. The key is replacing them man. You build a formula that rotates players while keeping the better ones..

 

[cdumler7]

In no way Miller is the better overall player cd. Mack is an All Pro at LB and DE while Miller is not. Miller is not in Macks league anymore when it comes to overall game, it's really not even fair to compare them anymore really..
Miller no doubt is a great player but Mack is on another level now and only getting better, while Miller has peaked already..

And let's not forget that Mack too won us games. The thing is Miller has been doing it for a long time and has had some great players around him to help him boost those numbers up.. They ranked him 2 out of respect and not by being the better player.. I mean when you have a lock down secondary and the QB has nowhere to go, what do you think happens? Exactly.. Again, Miller is a great player, but Mack is better.

Well it seems like quite a few people disagree with you. And to say he is not in Mack's league come on Idaho. We are talking about 2 of the top-3 defensive players in the game. No reason to tear down my guy just to make yourself feel better about yours. I said it was really close and I can openly admit that my homerism probably plays a bit of a role in me picking Von Miller but I don't think you can go wrong taking either of them. Von brings more speed and versatility where Mack brings a lot more of a power unit to his game and ability to collapse the pocket on a regular basis. Both are elite players.

 

[cdumler7]

The cap keeps going up cd.
Then you factor in how the deals are structured man. There's a lot of ways to get around the cap dude im sure.
These players the RAIDERS are locking up are foundation pieces, the core of the team dude.. Without players like those you picking top 10 in the draft..

Next year players like Smith, Amerson, Nelson, Howard, etc will be coming off the books, That's a lot of money man. And the RAIDERS have young players to replace them on the roster already..
The key to the whole thing is good drafting.. Here's an example? The RAIDERS feared WR core has only one drafted player on it? Coop! Crabs we picked up for cheap, the rest are UDFAs. The RBs? Washington in the 5th, Richard and Olawale are UDFA, BeastMode we got cheap and Hood in the 7th..

Now will the RAIDERS be forced to let some good players go in the future? Good chance just like other teams. The key is replacing them man. You build a formula that rotates players while keeping the better ones..

I understand the Cap goes up. So does the cost of those players with each passing year. What would be $20 million right now for Mack probably goes up to $25 million in the next 2 years. Same with Cooper of what is $15 million right now could be $20 million by the time they sign him to a deal.

And I never said they couldn't get some things done. Yes you can manipulate the cap to an extent but all I've said is once you get those guys locked in things get tighter for the team. You have less opportunity to make a mistake by bringing in a FA or being able to cover up a bad draft pick by getting a FA that can play better. You have to hit on a more regular basis while drafting most likely later than before and not just going after all the big name FA's to make the team. And yes I realize other players come off the books soon enough. Again though those players in no way compare to the prices for Cooper, Mack, Carr, and Gabe. This is Capology 101 here Idaho. Believe me you don't want to get into a disagreement about the Cap with me. I have studied it extensively as my favorite time of year is draft and beginning of FA. I love figuring out how teams build their teams.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Well it seems like quite a few people disagree with you. And to say he is not in Mack's league come on Idaho. We are talking about 2 of the top-3 defensive players in the game. No reason to tear down my guy just to make yourself feel better about yours. I said it was really close and I can openly admit that my homerism probably plays a bit of a role in me picking Von Miller but I don't think you can go wrong taking either of them. Von brings more speed and versatility where Mack brings a lot more of a power unit to his game and ability to collapse the pocket on a regular basis. Both are elite players.

I said Miller is a great player, heck HOF player. One of the greats in the game.
Im talking about bang for the buck cd. Mack plays at the same level as Miller correct? But with Mack you not only get one position but two. The dude made NFL history by being named All Pro at not only LB what Miller plays but DE what JJ Watt plays.. Mack is the DPOY for crying out loud. So how did Miller have the better year?
Again im not saying Miller is weak cuz the dude is a great player. Mack is just ahead now cuz he brings more to the table while playing at the same level Miller is..

 

[cdumler7]

I said Miller is a great player, heck HOF player. One of the greats in the game.
Im talking about bang for the buck cd. Mack plays at the same level as Miller correct? But with Mack you not only get one position but two. The dude made NFL history by being named All Pro at not only LB what Miller plays but DE what JJ Watt plays.. Mack is the DPOY for crying out loud. So how did Miller have the better year?
Again im not saying Miller is weak cuz the dude is a great player. Mack is just ahead now cuz he brings more to the table while playing at the same level Miller is..

Couple of things...

1) Mack does not play the same position as Watt. Big difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 DE. Very different assignments within a defense. So to try and compare the two is just not understanding the game and what each is asked to do.

2) Miller and Mack play very similar roles. Here is the difference. Mack plays a lot more on the actual DL where Miller roams around a bit more and Miller is asked to drop back into coverage more than Mack. I would love to see Mack try to drop back and cover a TE because I don't think he would feel comfortable with that. Again if you want to talk about versatility then the fact that MIller can drop back into coverage and do well at it adds to his reasoning of being a better all around player. And honestly in today's NFL there is not as much difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB. It is why Mack is considered both when in reality it is just a fancy way of the Raiders distinguishing between the times Mack plays with his hand in the dirt and when he plays standing up.

And how did Miller have a better year this past year...Well in 2017 he was named Super Bowl MVP. I think most players would take that award over DPOY any time. Usually means your team won the Super Bowl and well that is the ultimate goal of every team. And like I said it is obvious that in the biggest moments of games Von has shown more play making ability. He has been given more opportunities but in the few Mack has had he hasn't shown up at all.

And like I said for me here is how I rank defensive players right now...1a) Aaron Donald, 1b) Von Miller, 1c) Khalil Mack. I honestly could make a case for any of them being the top defensive player in football right now.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

I understand the Cap goes up. So does the cost of those players with each passing year. What would be $20 million right now for Mack probably goes up to $25 million in the next 2 years. Same with Cooper of what is $15 million right now could be $20 million by the time they sign him to a deal.

And I never said they couldn't get some things done. Yes you can manipulate the cap to an extent but all I've said is once you get those guys locked in things get tighter for the team. You have less opportunity to make a mistake by bringing in a FA or being able to cover up a bad draft pick by getting a FA that can play better. You have to hit on a more regular basis while drafting most likely later than before and not just going after all the big name FA's to make the team. And yes I realize other players come off the books soon enough. Again though those players in no way compare to the prices for Cooper, Mack, Carr, and Gabe. This is Capology 101 here Idaho. Believe me you don't want to get into a disagreement about the Cap with me. I have studied it extensively as my favorite time of year is draft and beginning of FA. I love figuring out how teams build their teams.

The price not only goes up for RAIDER players but for Bronco players as well, heck all teams.. Somebody will pay these players right? Like some of the lower rank teams like the Jags, etc correct? But those teams won't win without a QB dude. So the teams that lose good players in FA but have the stud QB will still be in the hunt for the playoffs, SBs. It's just the way it is man.
Look at the next young crop of QBs and young stud players? They will all get paid, and yet one of those teams will win the SBs.. Everything is going up, and the ones that have more will win..

 

[cdumler7]

The price not only goes up for RAIDER players but for Bronco players as well, heck all teams.. Somebody will pay these players right? Like some of the lower rank teams like the Jags, etc correct? But those teams won't win without a QB dude. So the teams that lose good players in FA but have the stud QB will still be in the hunt for the playoffs, SBs. It's just the way it is man.
Look at the next young crop of QBs and young stud players? They will all get paid, and yet one of those teams will win the SBs.. Everything is going up, and the ones that have more will win..

What I'm talking about is a timing thing though here Idaho. Yes young players will continue to get paid if they show they can play. And the Raiders should feel good about having some stud players to play. Been a while since they have been able to say that. Again this is why though I keep saying the Raiders have about a 2-year Super Bowl window where things are easier because once those players get paid that window becomes more difficult to open. Doesn't mean they can't win but things right now are about as easy as they get. You have some All-Pro level talent being paid rookie contracts meaning you can spend elsewhere. The OL is a great showing. The Raiders have 1 home grown talent on that OL and he just got paid. The rest they paid to make that unit elite. That gets much more difficult to do when other players get paid.

Look at the Seahawks. They could add some huge talent to that defense when Russell Wilson was on a rookie contract. His contract alone takes away 2 Pro Bowl players or 4 good starters just by his new contract alone. That makes life much more difficult for the entire team. Russell Wilson isn't going to all of a sudden improve that much more to make up for the difference in talent from the year before. He will continue to play well but the rest of the team will be hurt by lack of depth and talent on the team. Now they could still go out and win a Super Bowl but it isn't as easy as those first 4 years with Wilson on a cheap contract.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

Couple of things...

1) Mack does not play the same position as Watt. Big difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 DE. Very different assignments within a defense. So to try and compare the two is just not understanding the game and what each is asked to do.

2) Miller and Mack play very similar roles. Here is the difference. Mack plays a lot more on the actual DL where Miller roams around a bit more and Miller is asked to drop back into coverage more than Mack. I would love to see Mack try to drop back and cover a TE because I don't think he would feel comfortable with that. Again if you want to talk about versatility then the fact that MIller can drop back into coverage and do well at it adds to his reasoning of being a better all around player. And honestly in today's NFL there is not as much difference between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 OLB. It is why Mack is considered both when in reality it is just a fancy way of the Raiders distinguishing between the times Mack plays with his hand in the dirt and when he plays standing up.

And how did Miller have a better year this past year...Well in 2017 he was named Super Bowl MVP. I think most players would take that award over DPOY any time. Usually means your team won the Super Bowl and well that is the ultimate goal of every team. And like I said it is obvious that in the biggest moments of games Von has shown more play making ability. He has been given more opportunities but in the few Mack has had he hasn't shown up at all.

And like I said for me here is how I rank defensive players right now...1a) Aaron Donald, 1b) Von Miller, 1c) Khalil Mack. I honestly could make a case for any of them being the top defensive player in football right now.

It doesn't matter that one is a 3-4 and the other 4-3 they both play DE. That's the point dude. More bang for the buck with Mack. He's just an overall better player, cuz you get more.. 2 is better than 1, that's the argument.

Wasn't throwing at the Broncos LBs the weakness of that defense? Seems like TEs and RBs torched the Broncos LBs in coverage? And as well as the running game.. If so? Miller is not that great iin coverage but needs to play it in the scheme you guys run..

And we ain't talking about the SB run you guys had, but last year cd. Again the Panthers had no WRs to challenge the Bronco secondary so Miller feasted.. You need to look at why he had a great SB game..
And we talking about last year in which Mack was DPOY not Miller. You see, that says Mack had the bigger and better year cd, right?

 

[cdumler7]

It doesn't matter that one is a 3-4 and the other 4-3 they both play DE. That's the point dude. More bang for the buck with Mack. He's just an overall better player, cuz you get more.. 2 is better than 1, that's the argument.

Wasn't throwing at the Broncos LBs the weakness of that defense? Seems like TEs and RBs torched the Broncos LBs in coverage? And as well as the running game.. If so? Miller is not that great iin coverage but needs to play it in the scheme you guys run..

And we ain't talking about the SB run you guys had, but last year cd. Again the Panthers had no WRs to challenge the Bronco secondary so Miller feasted.. You need to look at why he had a great SB game..
And we talking about last year in which Mack was DPOY not Miller. You see, that says Mack had the bigger and better year cd, right?

I'm going to recommend some articles for you to read here Idaho to understand that 3-4 DE is not like that of a 4-3 DE. Teams that play a 4-3 usually like their DE's in that 260-275 lbs. range and ability to bend around the edge to get after the QB. 3-4 DE's they like them in that 290-300 lb. range because they want them to hold up in the run game and take on double teams if need be. 3-4 DE's usually shadow more inside where a 4-3 DE plays usually on the outside shoulder of at least the OT or the TE if they have one to that side. Again very different skill sets and why you cannot try and compare JJ Watt and what he is asked to do and that of Mack and what the Raiders ask him to do.

2) Yes some of the issue was throwing at our LB's but you do realize that just because some of the LB's struggled in coverage that doesn't mean all of them did right? I mean that would be like me saying that Mack was terrible because well the Raiders defense was a bottom-10 unit this past year. One does not equal the other. Same with Miller and in coverage and against the run. Von graded out as the best run stopping OLB in all of football this past year. What was happening is teams were running away from him because the other side was weak. Why attack the strength of a defense when you can attack the weakness?

As for the Super Bowl run please don't tell me you are trying to downplay the role Von Miller had in winning us a Super Bowl. I'm not sure I can even try to respond to that because it is ridiculous. The Broncos won a Super Bowl going against 3 of the top-5 offenses in football that season in the Steelers, Patriots, and Panthers. The Panthers had just torn through the Cardinals and Seahawks who both had top-7 defenses like they didn't even exist. Those "terrible" WR's destroyed some good secondaries before they got to the Broncos. So don't sit here and try to downplay the Broncos winning a Super Bowl.

 

[idahoraiderfan33]

What I'm talking about is a timing thing though here Idaho. Yes young players will continue to get paid if they show they can play. And the Raiders should feel good about having some stud players to play. Been a while since they have been able to say that. Again this is why though I keep saying the Raiders have about a 2-year Super Bowl window where things are easier because once those players get paid that window becomes more difficult to open. Doesn't mean they can't win but things right now are about as easy as they get. You have some All-Pro level talent being paid rookie contracts meaning you can spend elsewhere. The OL is a great showing. The Raiders have 1 home grown talent on that OL and he just got paid. The rest they paid to make that unit elite. That gets much more difficult to do when other players get paid.

Look at the Seahawks. They could add some huge talent to that defense when Russell Wilson was on a rookie contract. His contract alone takes away 2 Pro Bowl players or 4 good starters just by his new contract alone. That makes life much more difficult for the entire team. Russell Wilson isn't going to all of a sudden improve that much more to make up for the difference in talent from the year before. He will continue to play well but the rest of the team will be hurt by lack of depth and talent on the team. Now they could still go out and win a Super Bowl but it isn't as easy as those first 4 years with Wilson on a cheap contract.

How could you sit here and say the RAIDERS have only a two year window when the players we are locking up are just starting their careers? It don't even make sense. Now i understand where you are coming from with the cap and all, but these players ain't old like AR, Brady, Big Ben, etc. they are just starting those careers cd.
Theres a new era taking over in the NFL. The old is about done.

And as for Seattle? They are still a contender cd. Heck they could win it all next year, we don't know that.
They still have RW along with a good defense.

No team wins the SB year after year, no team! But as long as you have great QB play along with a solid team around that QB you will always have a chance. It don't even have to be a great team around that QB just a solid one and you have a chance.. That cap puts all teams on the same level, it's just the teams with the great QB always comes out on top. Unless you build an all time great defense, and those come around every 10 years or so..