NWO do-over

[The Q]

My question about that would be is how would wrestling be different today? Because I think WCW was starting to slowly spiral downward and eventually would've gone under regardless.
I think that Bischoff's problem was he stole the NWO idea from Japan, milked it for all it was worth (and then some) and when it had started to fizzle out, he didn't have any good ideas to continue. Also, he saw that the Attitude Era was getting over, so he tried to do a lot of that (and of course Russo continued it as well) and the audience really didn't want that. If he had just stuck to being an alternative to the WWF and eventually cutting some of the older, expensive talent and developing guys like Benoit, Booker, etc... they possibly could've survived a bit longer.

The problem was also that the WCW matches were not delivering, especially on the upper card.

And then the miscues were just embarrassing.

The Piper match to beat hogan at 96 starrcard that magically became a non-title mach.

the count out in a no DQ, falls count anywhere match.

they couldn't even count goldberg's streak properly.

It was just really sloppy.

 

[The Q]

Good points on the fact that they didn't advance the careers of others. I didn't specifically think about that so much. It was a bit of a byproduct of the booking but also the egos and things like the aforementioned Hogan's creative control clause.

What specifically would you have done to keep the WCW viable?
.....and what do you think of my suggestions in regards to the NWO roster? Any differences from my list?

Interested in your opinions. Not many out there I can discuss this stuff with.

I get it man.

And if you can't tell yet, I've been waiting for this thread for 3 years here on SH. lol

 

[The Q]

Let me be fair to WCW. This is what they did well:

- Drama. From Hall walking in and interrupting the match. Teasing out what he was doing here. Teasing out the partners (first Nash, then Hogan) it was fantastically done. Also, looking back at the promos, it was funny that they never talked smack about hogan. Interesting little clue they left in there. The heel turn by hogan and the two stings were two amazing storylines that really brought things up.

- Plans. I think the first part of the NWO story worked so well because they basically scripted it out 2 years in advance. Look at how long the Sting thing was planned for. The two stings. The Crow and year of silence. They had a plan until SC97 and they worked it well.

- Realism. What made the NWO storyline work so well was that it was PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING. It was made to look real. So real that a tv watching fan actually called the police because one fight was so believably brutal (the Rey Mysterio lawn dart attack). Not to mention the little details they covered like Hall and Nash getting escorted out by security a few times early on, only to have them come back with tickets and concessions. And then the "paid" ads that the NWO did with their promos. And even those promos....they were grainy black and white, and short to the point. They didn't scream PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING.

Lastly, they sold the NWO t-shirts/gear out of the back of a truck using hot chicks. They didn't even let it be sold in the building (at first). Nothing says not a part of the WCW organization like making their products totally bootleg.

- They made the villain Likeable. Something that was not really seen before in pro wrestling. The WWF tried to rip it off with Stone Cold. But Hollywood Hogan makes this legendary (SCSA copying it is why he is not on my Mt. Rushmore FWIW).

- Originality. We never saw anything like this before, and we will never see anything like it again.

 

[wazzu31]

Exactly how responsible was Bischoff for the bloated guaranteed contracts and letting the talent make storyline decisions? If the answer is that he was primarily responsible then he is largely to blame. If he isn't primarily responsible then maybe not so much.

Bischoff was a good character but I think he was too close to Hall, Nash, Hogan, and other NWO members that he let his and their egos get in the way of progress. A conflict of interest.

All good points, but Time Warner didn't give a crap about wrestling. They said here is a check, go make us money until they started failing. WWE has done similar stuff WCW did (except guaranteed contracts) struggled but were given time to fix it. Bischoff is responsible for not giving real pushes and alot of that stuff but WWE has done that too in their history but Bischoff gets criticized for essentially a 3 1/2 to 4 year window.

 

[jakedog56]

Let me be fair to WCW. This is what they did well:

- Drama. From Hall walking in and interrupting the match. Teasing out what he was doing here. Teasing out the partners (first Nash, then Hogan) it was fantastically done. Also, looking back at the promos, it was funny that they never talked smack about hogan. Interesting little clue they left in there. The heel turn by hogan and the two stings were two amazing storylines that really brought things up.

- Plans. I think the first part of the NWO story worked so well because they basically scripted it out 2 years in advance. Look at how long the Sting thing was planned for. The two stings. The Crow and year of silence. They had a plan until SC97 and they worked it well.

- Realism. What made the NWO storyline work so well was that it was PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING. It was made to look real. So real that a tv watching fan actually called the police because one fight was so believably brutal (the Rey Mysterio lawn dart attack). Not to mention the little details they covered like Hall and Nash getting escorted out by security a few times early on, only to have them come back with tickets and concessions. And then the "paid" ads that the NWO did with their promos. And even those promos....they were grainy black and white, and short to the point. They didn't scream PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING.

Lastly, they sold the NWO t-shirts/gear out of the back of a truck using hot chicks. They didn't even let it be sold in the building (at first). Nothing says not a part of the WCW organization like making their products totally bootleg.

- They made the villain Likeable. Something that was not really seen before in pro wrestling. The WWF tried to rip it off with Stone Cold. But Hollywood Hogan makes this legendary (SCSA copying it is why he is not on my Mt. Rushmore FWIW).

- Originality. We never saw anything like this before, and we will never see anything like it again.

Good points. They had such momentum and were so for over with the fans that it is hard to believe that they screwed it up and fell so hard, so fast.

There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread. If they would have done just a few of these they might have saved themselves. It amazes me that they let their own bloated egos and lack of internal control kill their own golden goose.

When I found out that they were in negotiations with Bischoff's investors for a buyout and a move to Las Vegas it really made me try to envision what the landscape would look like if that had happened and succeeded. What would pro-wrestling look like today under that scenario?

 

[The Q]

Good points. They had such momentum and were so for over with the fans that it is hard to believe that they screwed it up and fell so hard, so fast.

There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread. If they would have done just a few of these they might have saved themselves. It amazes me that they let their own bloated egos and lack of internal control kill their own golden goose.

When I found out that they were in negotiations with Bischoff's investors for a buyout and a move to Las Vegas it really made me try to envision what the landscape would look like if that had happened and succeeded. What would pro-wrestling look like today under that scenario?

Let's also add that if Sting was the 3rd guy it would've been a complete disaster.

I love Sting, but he was made for the role they gave him, he was an awful heel.

 

[tducey]

The group that helped change wrestling back in the 90's. Such a cool group, really helped change the way you felt about heels. The only issue with the NWO is most every wrestler in WCW joined them at 1 point or the other and it really watered things down.

 

[jakedog56]

The group that helped change wrestling back in the 90's. Such a cool group, really helped change the way you felt about heels. The only issue with the NWO is most every wrestler in WCW joined them at 1 point or the other and it really watered things down.

Yep. That was a big part of the first post. They brought in way too many guys into the NWO and they were so busy stroking each other's egos that they ignorantly didn't seem to realize that by constantly dominating the competition and not putting anyone over, particularly the young talent, it just killed the massive heat that they started with.

Guys like Jericho, Eddie G., Saturn, Rey Mysterio, Ultimo Dragon, etc should have had big pushes. Groups like The Flock, The Four Horsemen, and even the Luchadors, etc should all been allowed to compete with the NWO on at least a small level instead of just getting ran over and made fun of.

Another note about the Luchadors: Konnan, Eddie Guerrero, Chavo Guerreo., Rey Mysterio, Juvantud Guerrero, Psicosis, and La Parka (maybe even Vampiro in the latter days) would have made a good, formidable faction. Instead you got the LWO (which was of course redundant to the NWO) which contained guys like Silver King, El Dandy, and The Villianos who were all good workers but never had a hope at really getting over.

 

[jakedog56]

Let's also add that if Sting was the 3rd guy it would've been a complete disaster.

I love Sting, but he was made for the role they gave him, he was an awful heel.

Agreed that Sting didn't work as a heel. I think the Crow gimmick was getting a bit stale. I wonder how a return to surfer Sting would have gone over?

 

[jakedog56]

Another point on the bloated roster: they probably should have split the roster in two and ran them separately to a large extent. They certainly had the numbers to pull it off.

 

[The Q]

Agreed that Sting didn't work as a heel. I think the Crow gimmick was getting a bit stale. I wonder how a return to surfer Sting would have gone over?

It was getting stale when he switched in 96 because people didn’t want the crystal clean superhero types of the 80s and early 90s, but they could’ve gone back to surfer sting with a little more darkness and made it work.

 

[The Q]

Another point on the bloated roster: they probably should have split the roster in two and ran them separately to a large extent. They certainly had the numbers to pull it off.

I think that was part of the end goal. For nwo to have its own show. Be it’s own entity.

 

[The Q]

Yep. That was a big part of the first post. They brought in way too many guys into the NWO and they were so busy stroking each other's egos that they ignorantly didn't seem to realize that by constantly dominating the competition and not putting anyone over, particularly the young talent, it just killed the massive heat that they started with.

Guys like Jericho, Eddie G., Saturn, Rey Mysterio, Ultimo Dragon, etc should have had big pushes. Groups like The Flock, The Four Horsemen, and even the Luchadors, etc should all been allowed to compete with the NWO on at least a small level instead of just getting ran over and made fun of.

Another note about the Luchadors: Konnan, Eddie Guerrero, Chavo Guerreo., Rey Mysterio, Juvantud Guerrero, Psicosis, and La Parka (maybe even Vampiro in the latter days) would have made a good, formidable faction. Instead you got the LWO (which was of course redundant to the NWO) which contained guys like Silver King, El Dandy, and The Villianos who were all good workers but never had a hope at really getting over.

That’s just a small sample of the problem.

They made wcw look like complete idiots for 2 years. How no one could organize anything made it embarrassingly bad

 

[wazzu31]

The group that helped change wrestling back in the 90's. Such a cool group, really helped change the way you felt about heels. The only issue with the NWO is most every wrestler in WCW joined them at 1 point or the other and it really watered things down.

Realistically though, the NWO fad would've been over had they not added members with how they couldn't develop anyone. You can only have 3 guys beat the crap out of people for so long. That is the biggest mistake to me, Time Warner gave them a blank check so they didn't care about the power plant or developing upper card type guys, or not pigeon holing the best people they bought, the cruiserweights.

 

[wazzu31]

Another point on the bloated roster: they probably should have split the roster in two and ran them separately to a large extent. They certainly had the numbers to pull it off.

I think that was point of Thunder though, but not enough people tuned in to see the second tier WCW wrestlers once the main eventers backed out of wrestling on Thunder.

 

[OregonDucks]

Lots to digest and read here. But I'll add my two cents on the nWo. Awesome group early on, but I swear at one point every single member of the WCW roster was a nWo member, it got dumb when it turned into NWO Wolfpack, and NWO Hollywood, NWO Moonlight and NWO Legends (the last two made up, but sums up my feeling of how ridiculous NWO got near the end)

The NWO storyline was super hot in the beginning, but I don't think once NWO entered WCW it ever left. I think for the remaining few years of WCW run NWO was still the main storyline. Yes main storyline. Not like it faded to the background, once NWO entered the main event it never left. I think at one point WCW was thinking of changing over to nWo and ditching WCW, or ditching WCW Thunder and making that time slot an NWO slot.

Bottom line was, it got too big, and stayed far too long. DX is sorta the same now. WWE ruined DX. It should have never returned after it died the first time. Having two 40 year old dudes pulling pranks like they were 20 did not work and IMO it was never really DX.

Anyways, I marked big time when the NWO came to the WWE and Vince was going to "poison" the WWE with the NWO, that could have been an interesting storyline had Nash not gotten hurt. But it was awesome when NWO entered the WWE for the first time and Nash introduced Shawn Michaels as a member. I remember being super stoked watching that. Again, too bad that storyline ended so abruptly because I felt it had potential.

 

[The Q]

Realistically though, the NWO fad would've been over had they not added members with how they couldn't develop anyone. You can only have 3 guys beat the crap out of people for so long. That is the biggest mistake to me, Time Warner gave them a blank check so they didn't care about the power plant or developing upper card type guys, or not pigeon holing the best people they bought, the cruiserweights.

I will say this, WCW was miles ahead of the WWF in regards to cruiserweights.

But they ended up pigeon-holing them.

WWF did recognize (eventually) that those guys put up some damn good matches. Plus they also were pretty good on the mic.

 

[The Q]

Realistically though, the NWO fad would've been over had they not added members with how they couldn't develop anyone. You can only have 3 guys beat the crap out of people for so long. That is the biggest mistake to me, Time Warner gave them a blank check so they didn't care about the power plant or developing upper card type guys, or not pigeon holing the best people they bought, the cruiserweights.

I agree they needed to add guys.

I think they should've gone after many former WWF guys to keep that going. Luger would've been a fine addition to the NWO as a 4th/5th man.

Although I did like him as Stings friend as well.

But they needed to do it more strategically. And do it within storylines, like Henning.

 

[The Q]

I think that was point of Thunder though, but not enough people tuned in to see the second tier WCW wrestlers once the main eventers backed out of wrestling on Thunder.

This goes to the other point and is an interesting counter argument. Thunder wasn't doing well having guys like those cruiserweights on it...it's hard to justify a bump for them.

 

[The Q]

Lots to digest and read here. But I'll add my two cents on the nWo. Awesome group early on, but I swear at one point every single member of the WCW roster was a nWo member, it got dumb when it turned into NWO Wolfpack, and NWO Hollywood, NWO Moonlight and NWO Legends (the last two made up, but sums up my feeling of how ridiculous NWO got near the end)

The NWO storyline was super hot in the beginning, but I don't think once NWO entered WCW it ever left. I think for the remaining few years of WCW run NWO was still the main storyline. Yes main storyline. Not like it faded to the background, once NWO entered the main event it never left. I think at one point WCW was thinking of changing over to nWo and ditching WCW, or ditching WCW Thunder and making that time slot an NWO slot.

Bottom line was, it got too big, and stayed far too long. DX is sorta the same now. WWE ruined DX. It should have never returned after it died the first time. Having two 40 year old dudes pulling pranks like they were 20 did not work and IMO it was never really DX.

Anyways, I marked big time when the NWO came to the WWE and Vince was going to "poison" the WWE with the NWO, that could have been an interesting storyline had Nash not gotten hurt. But it was awesome when NWO entered the WWE for the first time and Nash introduced Shawn Michaels as a member. I remember being super stoked watching that. Again, too bad that storyline ended so abruptly because I felt it had potential.

I agree. But it also could've worked. They just messed it up. Again the long term plan was for the NWO to become it's own entity, but I also have no idea how that would've worked. Would power plant guys get started getting pummeled there? When would there be good cross over matches? only at PPVs? With how thunder went down, i'm not sure it would've worked unelss the NWO members wrestled each other.