Norris trophy finalists

[jstewismybastardson]

Yeah, but it became abundantly clear for other than goalies, there were too many moving parts to accurately reflect all of them in a stat. These advanced team stats tend to work ok, but all they really show are regressions to the mean over time - it doesn't take a statistician to tell me if a team dominates in puck possession and shots on goal, they will usually have good results barring a hot goalie - hence the goalie can have these VORP like stats, but not the skaters.

Stats in baseball are, for the most part, cut and dried - there is very little interpretation or subjective matter involved aside from defensive metrics. But that is becaue each pitch or batted ball in play is an independant event - no such events short of a penalty shot in hockey exist. These advanced hockey stats cannot take all the "specifics" of a hockey play and boil it down to a single stat - too many moving parts to do so. They may be getting better, but still nowhere as reliable as baseball stats are.

i know the current advanced stats arent the be all end all ... but they can be better quantifiers for some players than goals, assists, time on ice, +/-, and the "eyeball test" that old dunces like Craig Button adhere to

ie gem from this morning

@CraigJButton: Why stats lie. Drew Doughty played 25:50 with no points & an even plus/minus yet was dominant.

Jonathan Willis ‏@JonathanWillis 1h +7 Fenwick, +12 Corsi.




if Suter were to win the Norris, he'd be the first to win it (in the past 6 years where Corsi data is available) with a negative Corsi ... just sayin

 

[pixburgher66]

I also think PK having an engine running way too hot contributes to his penalty minute total...

Definitely, but in terms of how that affects the voting for this award, you're not really helping your team as a great defender by putting them down a player, are you? Does PK work the PK a lot? Heh...heheheh. I do know that 7 of his 11G are on the PP. I dunno, PK is a great, great, great player...but I wouldn't call him the best defensemen in the league. Still resign to Suter winning it. Was a big part of that team. Just huge.

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

How can Letang even be nominated with all the games he missed? The fact Beauchemin isn't nominated is a disgrace. Just like Brodin for the Calder. I'm losing a lot of respect for the people making these decisions.

 

[pixburgher66]

i know the current advanced stats arent the be all end all ... but they can be better quantifiers for some players than goals, assists, time on ice, +/-, and the "eyeball test" that old dunces like Craig Button adhere to

ie gem from this morning

@CraigJButton: Why stats lie. Drew Doughty played 25:50 with no points & an even plus/minus yet was dominant.

Jonathan Willis ‏@JonathanWillis 1h +7 Fenwick, +12 Corsi.




if Suter were to win the Norris, he'd be the first to win it (in the past 6 years where Corsi data is available) with a negative Corsi ... just sayin

Okay, someone explain the Corsi...does it take into account the quality of competition faced? That's the big thing for me when you look at a Dman's numbers...

 

[pixburgher66]

How can Letang even be nominated with all the games he missed? The fact Beauchemin isn't nominated is a disgrace. Just like Brodin for the Calder. I'm losing a lot of respect for the people making these decisions.

Yeah, holy crap...how did that happen? Both Letang and PK missed some time. PK not as much.

 

[DChero]

How can Letang even be nominated with all the games he missed? The fact Beauchemin isn't nominated is a disgrace. Just like Brodin for the Calder. I'm losing a lot of respect for the people making these decisions.

I thought that Brodin should have won the Calder. I think he made a bigger positive impact on his team than any of the other three.

Letang outplayed almost all defense even in less game sin my book. The lack of games should have had the biggest impact on his offensive output, which is the easiest to measure. It didn't. It's kind of the opposite of why I think that Suter will win. Suter can win by the "most valuable player" argument.

However, my understanding of the Norris is that it's awarded to the best defenseman, not the one that's most valuable based on the rest of the team's talent. If that's the case, then I think it should go to Letang because he has been the best in my book.

 

[rares]

No Beauchemin because East Coast bias thing... The same reason only 4 out of the last 29 Vezinas went to a Western Conference goalie.

Not really sure how Suter made it either... I wasn't impressed with him much this year and I watched quite a few Wild games.

Also, he let a 60-year old man (Boyle) do this to him:

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

I thought that Brodin should have won the Calder. I think he made a bigger positive impact on his team than any of the other three.

Letang outplayed almost all defense even in less game sin my book. The lack of games should have had the biggest impact on his offensive output, which is the easiest to measure. It didn't. It's kind of the opposite of why I think that Suter will win. Suter can win by the "most valuable player" argument.

However, my understanding of the Norris is that it's awarded to the best defenseman, not the one that's most valuable based on the rest of the team's talent. If that's the case, then I think it should go to Letang because he has been the best in my book.

The Norris doesn't go to the best defenseman. It goes to the best OFFENSIVE defenseman in any particular season. Beauchemin belongs in the top three period.

 

[pixburgher66]

The Norris doesn't go to the best defenseman. It goes to the best OFFENSIVE defenseman in any particular season. Beauchemin belongs in the top three period.

So we're all agreed to resigning to the new version then? Hahah. Look offense first then use best D as a tie breaker?

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

So we're all agreed to resigning to the new version then? Hahah. Look offense first then use best D as a tie breaker?

Bobby Orr screwed this award up for all defenseman who followed him. What the people who nominate don't seem to realize is no player coming after him will ever be anywhere near as good as Orr. EVER. They don't take defense into account at all in my opinion.

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Okay, someone explain the Corsi...does it take into account the quality of competition faced? That's the big thing for me when you look at a Dman's numbers...

Hockey Numbers: Corsi Numbers

 

[DChero]

So we're all agreed to resigning to the new version then? Hahah. Look offense first then use best D as a tie breaker?

Bobby Orr screwed this award up for all defenseman who followed him. What the people who nominate don't seem to realize is no player coming after him will ever be anywhere near as good as Orr. EVER. They don't take defense into account at all in my opinion.

Word. If only there was a stat that we all agreed on to decide... like plus/minus.

 

[pixburgher66]

Word. If only there was a stat that we all agreed on to decide... like plus/minus.

Too bad +/- is incredibly misleading...

 

[esls79]

A negative Corsi for Suter may mean the Wild are very passive when defending their own zone 5 on 5. A positive Corsi means a defenseman is better at generating shots for, and then this boils down to this being an offensive award again and a defensive award second.

 

[dare2be]

DS or Dacks could come up with a complex formula based on hits, blocked shots, PIM, +/- and giveaways/takeaways to come up with a completely objective measure of defensive effectiveness. Factor in the offensive stats and you have a complete picture.

 

[dare2be]

Pos	Hits	BkS	MsS	GvA	TkA
D	45	59	37	34	12
D	33	74	31	19	9	
D	51	49	42	42	10

Which line looks best to you?

 

[dash]

I like the top line above best...

 

[esls79]

Door number two Monty

 

[sbb122]

Pos	Hits	BkS	MsS	GvA	TkA
D	45	59	37	34	12
D	33	74	31	19	9	
D	51	49	42	42	10

Which line looks best to you?

Middle

 

[DChero]

Pos	Hits	BkS	MsS	GvA	TkA
D	45	59	37	34	12
D	33	74	31	19	9	
D	51	49	42	42	10

Which line looks best to you?

This is where we start looking at points, eh?