Series Thread: NBA Finals: Warriors vs Cavaliers

[LAD]

You're basically hoping that Draymond doesn't do Draymond things. That's the number one thing I'm looking at this playoff series

Welp he steps into this series with only 1 tech in the post season - I would say he's well equipped!

 

[Shanemansj13]

I don't have him above Kobe - for a few reasons. Having a losing record in the Finals AND not even having an equal title count is just a couple.

If the argument is that titles and/or Finals appearances is the tiebreaker - or at least holds weight in determining which player is better - then how can the only player amongst the greatest have a losing record in the Finals & less titles than the rest equate to being #2 on the list behind the GOAT?

I also think Kobe played in a different era for the majority of his career - or at least while he was in his prime - and therefore can't be judged the same. For the sake of individual accolades yes LBJ has the better stats so I will give him credit for that. But in the sense of this being a TEAM sport Kobe has won more with less. He has a 3peat AND a repeat under his belt - all without leaving his original team or stockpiling all stars on one team.

LBJ played in Miami with arguably 2 other all stars, one of which was in his prime (Bosh) - yet only won 2 out of 4 times. With his abilities I'm not sure how that happens when he had the most & best talent (at that time) around him.

Having a losing title record has little to do with the greatness of a player but it is evaluated when you have similiar players. Lebron has already surpassed Kobe though so the titles is a non-factor. The titles WILL be matter of he is trying to climb past Magic, Kareem and MJ. You just cant have Kobe ahead of Lebron if he wasnt even Batman for all his rings, makes no sense. Lebron is a better all-around player as well. Kobe is my top 10 though or just outside of it.

The losing record in the Finals is a blah argument....07 he carrried scrubs to the Finals. 15 he again carried the Cavs to 2 Finals wins without Kyrie and Love. So just sn example why the argument is really blah.

He had arguably the most dominant center in the game, who was Batman. Kobe had plenty of help. When he won one of his titles without Shaq he beat the Magic (good team but nowhere near great).

 

[LAD]

Careful now. The nut huggers are going to use the "lebron has 4 MVPs" argument here.

IMO Kobe should've had more than 1 MVP in his prime. What killed that was his legal issues in 03/04.

 

[Heatles84]

Welp he steps into this series with only 1 tech in the post season - I would say he's well equipped!

He's definitely shown more self control - although there were a couple of times I thought he was going to get T'd up. But yeah, barring him getting into a brawl with anyone, he's not walking into the Finals on the verge of getting suspended for a game.

 

[Heatles84]

Why LeBron won't carry the Cavs to a title this time

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

IMO Kobe should've had more than 1 MVP in his prime. What killed that was his legal issues in 03/04.

MVPs are over rated. Steve Nash has more than John Stockton and Gary Payton, just as many as Tim Duncan and only one less than Magic. Would Steve Nash even make the top 20 of all time?

 

[Heatles84]

Having a losing title record has little to do with the greatness of a player but it is evaluated when you have similiar players. Lebron has already surpassed Kobe though so the titles is a non-factor. The titles WILL be matter of he is trying to climb past Magic, Kareem and MJ. You just cant have Kobe ahead of Lebron if he wasnt even Batman for all his rings, makes no sense. Lebron is a better all-around player as well. Kobe is my top 10 though or just outside of it.

The losing record in the Finals is a blah argument....07 he carrried scrubs to the Finals. 15 he again carried the Cavs to 2 Finals wins without Kyrie and Love. So just sn example why the argument is really blah.

He had arguably the most dominant center in the game, who was Batman. Kobe had plenty of help. When he won one of his titles without Shaq he beat the Magic (good team but nowhere near great).

I agree with this. Titles are a great measuring stick for comparing players, but they have to be viewed in a certain context. Kobe was obviously a major part in all 5 of his titles - but Shaq was the FMVP for the first 3, Kobe proved he could be the lead dog on his last 2, solidifying that he is an all-time great.

Lebron's already surpassed Kobe in FMVP's though, even if his ring count isn't as high as Kobe's. My all-time list right now (top 7):

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Kareem
4) Lebron
5) Kobe
6) Shaq
7) Tim Duncan

 

[Heatles84]

MVPs are over rated. Steve Nash has more than John Stockton and Gary Payton, just as many as Tim Duncan and only one less than Magic. Would Steve Nash even make the top 20 of all time?

I don't think I'd even take Nash over Payton too be quite honest.

 

[LAD]

I agree with this. Titles are a great measuring stick for comparing players, but they have to be viewed in a certain context. Kobe was obviously a major part in all 5 of his titles - but Shaq was the FMVP for the first 3, Kobe proved he could be the lead dog on his last 2, solidifying that he is an all-time great.

Lebron's already surpassed Kobe in FMVP's though, even if his ring count isn't as high as Kobe's. My all-time list right now (top 7):

1) MJ
2) Magic
3) Kareem
4) Lebron
5) Kobe
6) Shaq
7) Tim Duncan

It's all subjective IMO. I have Kobe ahead of LBJ for the reasons I listed & mainly because I am a Laker fan too. Not surprising this varies based on one's fandom.

 

[Heatles84]

It's all subjective IMO. I have Kobe ahead of LBJ for the reasons I listed & mainly because I am a Laker fan too. Not surprising this varies based on one's fandom.

You're absolutely right. But I'm not a fan of either. There's things Lebron does better than Kobe and vice versa. I guess for me it's what Kobe has done when he's had shit next to him in terms of his team - which wasn't much. Of course when you get him some help, he excels big time.

We've seen how much Lebron elevates his team. The Cavs are shit without him and he did drag a subpar team to the Finals in '07. Having said that, Lebron still has a ways to go for GOAT, and that ship has honestly sailed for me. Unless he can manage to win 4 of the next 5 titles.

 

[Battlelyon]

I will be honest - I didn't pick the Dubs to sweep ANY series until Kawhi got hurt. They have been pretty impressive thus far. I especially like the killer instinct when the opponent is on the ropes. I think that is what they lacked last year & am excited to see them have another chance this year to seal the deal.

I agree with you that I think they're good enough to sweep this series too - and as a GS fan that would be the ultimate in terms of being able to stick it to Cavs fans - well, mainly Wiggy. LOL But, I think the Cavs also can take a game if the Warriors don't put & keep their foot on the neck of that team. Not having Kerr on the bench is the reason I think they could let up & get too relaxed.

It helps when you play a bunch of Mash units, Leonard getting hurt was the best thing for you.

 

[knowyourenemy]

I don't have him above Kobe - for a few reasons. Having a losing record in the Finals AND not even having an equal title count is just a couple.

If the argument is that titles and/or Finals appearances is the tiebreaker - or at least holds weight in determining which player is better - then how can the only player amongst the greatest have a losing record in the Finals & less titles than the rest equate to being #2 on the list behind the GOAT?

I also think Kobe played in a different era for the majority of his career - or at least while he was in his prime - and therefore can't be judged the same. For the sake of individual accolades yes LBJ has the better stats so I will give him credit for that. But in the sense of this being a TEAM sport Kobe has won more with less. He has a 3peat AND a repeat under his belt - all without leaving his original team or stockpiling all stars on one team.

LBJ played in Miami with arguably 2 other all stars, one of which was in his prime (Bosh) - yet only won 2 out of 4 times. With his abilities I'm not sure how that happens when he had the most & best talent (at that time) around him.

If we just look at win shares (which is admittedly a flawed stat), Kobe did not lead his team in win shares in any of the seasons when L.A. won the Finals. Even accepting that WS doesn't paint the entire picture, I'm not sure how you can say that Kobe has won more with less.

LeBron has been the top WS player on each of his championship teams.

 

[LAD]

You're absolutely right. But I'm not a fan of either. There's things Lebron does better than Kobe and vice versa. I guess for me it's what Kobe has done when he's had shit next to him in terms of his team - which wasn't much. Of course when you get him some help, he excels big time.

We've seen how much Lebron elevates his team. The Cavs are shit without him and he did drag a subpar team to the Finals in '07. Having said that, Lebron still has a ways to go for GOAT, and that ship has honestly sailed for me. Unless he can manage to win 4 of the next 5 titles.

I think the scale for which each is rated in regards to how much they've done with subpar teams is kind of lopsided. The main reason basically is because they played in different eras when in their primes. Kobe played in a more difficult conference & when the rules weren't designed to favor the offensive player as much as they do now.

Also, I don't see there being levels to losing. A loss is a loss to me whether it's in the first round or the Conf. Finals. Kobe had some bad teams between the time when Shaq left & Pau arrived. But, he managed to drag them to the playoffs. He even managed to do that with an under-achieving Howard at the end of his career. IMO this is why I can't look at LBJ's losing record as different than the other greats or null & void when he fell short of the goal more times than not. I don't weigh the talent or the "reasons" they lost because this is basketball. There's always going to be injuries or guys that don't perform to their potential. If we use these as asterisks then we'd have look at every team that lost in the Finals & that would just be doing too much.

 

[LAD]

It helps when you play a bunch of Mash units, Leonard getting hurt was the best thing for you.

Warriors were slated to win that series anyway - the only difference was they won 4 straight when Kawhi went down. Lets not act like the Spurs were originally the favorite & the Dubs had no chance.

 

[LAD]

If we just look at win shares (which is admittedly a flawed stat), Kobe did not lead his team in win shares in any of the seasons when L.A. won the Finals. Even accepting that WS doesn't paint the entire picture, I'm not sure how you can say that Kobe has won more with less.

LeBron has been the top WS player on each of his championship teams.

So, ok lets apply your theory to LBJ's losses. If he's been the top guy EVERY time why doesn't the fact that he's lost more than he's won matter? See, you can't have one without the other.

Also, Kobe never played on SUPER STAR teams. He had ONE all star on his team (Shaq) during that 3peat - of which he was a major part of. During those series Kobe took over in a lot of those 4th quarters because Shaq couldn't shoot F/Ts, therefore not able to close those games out. Shaq doesn't have 3 of his 4 rings without Kobe, and I'm pretty sure his time in Orlando w/ Penny helps us understand that.

 

[Battlelyon]

Warriors were slated to win that series anyway - the only difference was they won 4 straight when Kawhi went down. Lets not act like the Spurs were originally the favorite & the Dubs had no chance.

They were kicking your butt until he got hurt.

 

[Battlelyon]

To give you a quick summary regarding the negatives of Kobe’s shooting/ scoring here are some of records that Kobe Bryant holds:

• Most missed shots in a regular season
• Most missed game winners and buzzer beaters
• Only Finals MVP not to shoot above 50% in a single finals game (did this both in 2009 and 2010)
• Worst shooting performance by any NBA finals MVP in history (40%)
• Of the top 11 scorers of all time, Kobe has the lowest FG%
• There are only 13 games in NBA history where someone has scored 50 points or more on sub 50% shooting, Kobe is responsible for 7 of those 13 games.
• Most missed shots in a playoff series
• Most missed shots in a finals.

Bet you didn't know that huh?

 

[WiggyRuss]

 

[Heatles84]

So, ok lets apply your theory to LBJ's losses. If he's been the top guy EVERY time why doesn't the fact that he's lost more than he's won matter? See, you can't have one without the other.

Also, Kobe never played on SUPER STAR teams. He had ONE all star on his team (Shaq) during that 3peat - of which he was a major part of. During those series Kobe took over in a lot of those 4th quarters because Shaq couldn't shoot F/Ts, therefore not able to close those games out. Shaq doesn't have 3 of his 4 rings without Kobe, and I'm pretty sure his time in Orlando w/ Penny helps us understand that.

For me I understand losing. People like to gloss over Lebron's losses in the Finals.

2007: He faced clearly a better team in the '07 Spurs while they were in the middle of their dynasty run. But to me, could you now win one game? Albeit no one expected them to win a series, getting swept is still bad.

2011: Lebron's ultimate failure. If you compare the stats of the big 3 regular season to playoffs, Bosh and Wade were consistent while Lebron was clearly the weak part of the team.

2014: Again, Heat fans knew that the Spurs were the one team that would poise a litany of issues for us. Lebron's team got thoroughly destroyed by a record margin in 5 games.

2015: Given that he was without two all star teammates - he actually had a really good Finals and probably the only loss I can look at and say he gets a pass from me.

 

[LAD]

They were kicking your butt until he got hurt.

Very true - but as we've seen from the Dubs - as a matter of fact in the last reg season game they played against the Spurs - they were able to come back & win. I can agree there's a strong possibility they lose game 1, but not that they lose the series.