MVP snubs/he finished where?!

[Swangin]

Was looking at the late 60's and early 70's, Yaz in 1968 finished 9th? Danny McLain received every 1st place vote which wasn't a terrible selection, (looking up McLain's career is an interesting to view btw) but shocked Yastrzemski didn't receive any first place votes, and even more shocked somehow he finished 9th?

1970, you would think his 40 HRs and .329 BA would have looked like gold and his league leading 125 runs. He also led the league in OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and Total Bases.

Players you think should have won, or should of finished a lot higher or lower?

 

[navamind]

In 1995, Mo Vaughn batted .300/.388/.575 with an OPS+ of 144 (as a 1B) and won AL MVP. John Valentin batted .298/.399/.533 with an OPS+ of 138 while playing SS. He finished 9th. FWIW, Valentin led the AL in WAR that year at 8.3. Edgar was 2nd at 7.0.

Not entirely sure I would have voted for Val as MVP, but he was easily more valuable than Vaughn was.

Ben Sheets probably should have finished a little higher than 9th in the '04 CYA voting (Johnson deserved his CYA though). He was 2nd in WAR, 3rd in ERA, 2nd in WHIP, tied for 3rd in IP, 4th in K/9, 1st in K/BB, and 3rd in ERA+. It's a shame Sheets couldn't stay healthy, he was a very talented pitcher.

 

[navamind]

Dick Allen batted .302/.375/.494 with an OPS+ of 145 and WAR of 6.4 in 1965. He finished 28th in the NL MVP voting that year.

In '08, Chase Utley batted .292/.380/.535 (136 OPS+) with 14 SB (caught only 2 times) and finished 2nd in the NL in WAR and he finished 14th in NL MVP voting. Utley never finished higher than 7th in the MVP voting even during his amazing run from 05-09.

 

[Swangin]

Juan Gonzalez winning in 1996 was a joke. shouldn't even have been in top 5

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

In 1995, Mo Vaughn batted .300/.388/.575 with an OPS+ of 144 (as a 1B) and won AL MVP. John Valentin batted .298/.399/.533 with an OPS+ of 138 while playing SS. He finished 9th. FWIW, Valentin led the AL in WAR that year at 8.3. Edgar was 2nd at 7.0.

Not entirely sure I would have voted for Val as MVP, but he was easily more valuable than Vaughn was.

Ben Sheets probably should have finished a little higher than 9th in the '04 CYA voting (Johnson deserved his CYA though). He was 2nd in WAR, 3rd in ERA, 2nd in WHIP, tied for 3rd in IP, 4th in K/9, 1st in K/BB, and 3rd in ERA+. It's a shame Sheets couldn't stay healthy, he was a very talented pitcher.

You're misremembering. Randy Johnson was clearly the best pitcher in the NL in 2004, but didn't win the Cy Young Award. He should have, but they gave it to Clemens instead because of his shiny W-L record. Sheets was far and away the 2nd best pitcher, but similarly didn't get the votes because of W-L record.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I could go on with this subject for days. Literally. The BBWAA has given so much fodder over their years.

2006 is the year that jumps immediately to mind, with the MVP award in both leagues. Justin Morneau was the 3rd most valuable player on his own team, yet somehow wins the award over Mauer, Santana and Jeter. Morneau probably shouldn't have finished higher than 6th.

In the NL, Albert Pujols outperformed Ryan Howard in every facet of the game. Pujols' team also made the playoffs while Howard's team missed the playoffs. Better hitter, better fielder, better baserunner, better clutch performer. Everything. Pujols finishes 2nd somehow. Meanwhile, Howard isn't even the MVP of his own team. That distinction belongs to Chase Utley. At best, Howard should have finished 4th behind Pujols, Utley and Beltran.

The 1999 AL MVP is also a fucking atrocity. Pudge Rodriguez had an outstanding year, but shouldn't have finished any higher than 6th.

 

[soxfan1468927]

1996 Juan Gonzalez over...anybody? But really Griffey or A-Rod were most deserving.
1944 Marty Marion over Stan Musial
1960 Dick Groat over Willie Mays (Pirates winning the pennant clearly shaped this decision as Mays finished behind Don Hoak as well)
1987 George Bell over Alan Trammell

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

1996 Juan Gonzalez over...anybody? But really Griffey or A-Rod were most deserving.
1944 Marty Marion over Stan Musial
1960 Dick Groat over Willie Mays (Pirates winning the pennant clearly shaped this decision as Mays finished behind Don Hoak as well)
1987 George Bell over Alan Trammell

Also in 1987, Andre Dawson was the 4th most valuable RIGHT FIELDER in the National League and won MVP. Nevermind players from other positions. He was 4th most valuable at his own position. And there's the whole last place team thing (though I don't think that's too big a deal if you're clearly the best player).

 

[rokketmn]

The 1999 AL MVP is also a fucking atrocity. Pudge Rodriguez had an outstanding year, but shouldn't have finished any higher than 6th.

Do you think his position and the fact he threw out 55% of basestealers gave him the award? That was also a pretty close vote? A half dozen guys could have claimed that award in either league.

I can't remember seeing numbers that ridiculous across both leagues in all of my years following baseball. They are like numbers you see in a video game. It was as if you didn't hit 40 hr's that season, you sucked.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Do you think his position and the fact he threw out 55% of basestealers gave him the award? That was also a pretty close vote? A half dozen guys could have claimed that award in either league.

I can't remember seeing numbers that ridiculous across both leagues in all of my years following baseball. They are like numbers you see in a video game. It was as if you didn't hit 40 hr's that season, you sucked.

Obviously, being a great defensive catcher adds tremendous value. No one disputes that. But even with the added value of being a catcher, he simply wasn't as valuable as Jeter, Pedro, Manny, Nomar or Alomar, who had monumentally great seasons. Pedro had an historic season.

I think the primary issue is that voters weren't in tune with park influences yet, including Colorado. Judging by how highly Rangers players finished in MVP voting throughout the 90s, voters didn't understand how big a bandbox Arlington is/was. Juan Gonzalez won TWO MVPs he had no business winning. Rangers players routinely finished higher in the voting than they rightfully should have.

 

[navamind]

You're misremembering. Randy Johnson was clearly the best pitcher in the NL in 2004, but didn't win the Cy Young Award. He should have, but they gave it to Clemens instead because of his shiny W-L record. Sheets was far and away the 2nd best pitcher, but similarly didn't get the votes because of W-L record.

Damn, you're right.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I'll also add a few:

Cochrane over Gehrig in 1934
Eckersley over quite a few guys in 1992 including Clemens, Thomas, Puckett
Baylor in 1979 over Brett/Lynn
Hernandez over Eddie Murray/Mattingly and Ripken finished 26th with ONE 10th place vote???
Gooden was snubbed in 1985. McGee wasn't an atrocious choice but Gooden should have won.

For Cy Young:

Clemens should have won in 1990 and 1992 over Welch and Eck
Niekro should have won over Perry in 1978
Prior should have beaten out Gagne in 2003
Santana finishing 3rd in 2005

 

[navamind]

Rollie Fingers over Rickey Henderson, Dwight Evans, and Bobby Grich in 1981.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I'll also add a few:

Cochrane over Gehrig in 1934
Eckersley over quite a few guys in 1992 including Clemens, Thomas, Puckett
Baylor in 1979 over Brett/Lynn
Hernandez over Eddie Murray/Mattingly and Ripken finished 26th with ONE 10th place vote???
Gooden was snubbed in 1985. McGee wasn't an atrocious choice but Gooden should have won.

For Cy Young:

Clemens should have won in 1990 and 1992 over Welch and Eck
Niekro should have won over Perry in 1978
Prior should have beaten out Gagne in 2003
Santana finishing 3rd in 2005

Yeah, basically any reliever winning a major award was absolutely ludicrous.

Steve Bedrosian winning the 1987 Cy Young Award was a real laugher. Bedrosian wasn't even the best reliever in the NL, let alone the best overall pitcher. Tim Burke, Andy McGaffigan, and Todd Worrell were better at a minimum, and that's just among relievers. Mike Scott, Nolan Ryan, Rick Reuschel, Orel Hershiser, Bob Welch, Doc Gooden, Rick Sutcliffe, Doug Drabek. Pick any of these guys and they deserved the CYA more than Bedrosian.

1992 was also a laugher. Dennis Eckersley took home both the MVP and the CYA even though this wasn't even one of his historically great seasons as a reliever (like 89 & 90). He clearly didn't deserve votes over Clemens, Mussina, Kevin Appier, Charles Nagy, John Smiley, Juan Guzman, Jack McDowell. The MVP should have gone to Robby Alomar, Kirby Puckett, McGwire or Frank Thomas.

2003 - Jason Schmidt, Mark Prior, Kevin Brown, Livan Hernandez, Kerry Wood, Javy Vazquez over Gagne. Remarkably, only 4 men received votes that year, and Russ Ortiz was one of them, even though he wasn't even one of the 10 best pitchers in the NL that year.
1992 - see above.
1989 - There was no slam-dunk choice that year, but Mark Davis wasn't even the best reliever in the NL (that would be Rob Dibble). I'd have probably given the award to Orel Hershiser, but he was 15-15 which obviously turned most voters away. Other much better choices than Davis included Bruce Hurst, Scott Garrelts, Greg Maddux, or Mike Scott.
1987 - see above
1984 - Willie Hernandez laughably took home both awards. He had a great year, but certainly nothing MVP worthy. Dave Steib, Bert Blyleven and Mike Boddicker were pretty obvious choices for the CYA. Hrbek, Mattingly, Murray, Trammell, or Gibson would all have been better MVP selections. Hernandez was arguably the 6th most valuable player on his own team.
1981 - This is the one year where a reliever may have deserved the Cy Young Award, but Fingers most definitely didn't deserve the MVP. The only starter who I think was clearly better than Fingers was Steve McCatty. For MVP, Fingers clearly should have finished behind Rickey Henderson, Robin Yount, Dwight Evans or Bobby Grich.
1979 - Award clearly should have gone to JR Richard.
1977 - Sorry Sparky, Frank Tanana, Bert Blyleven, Nolan Ryan, Dennis Leonard, Ron Guidry, and Jim Palmer all clearly deserved the award more.
1974 - Mike Marshall also has one of the more legitimate claims, but I'd still have given it to Phil Niekro or Andy Messersmith.

 

[The Cubs fan]

How about 2011? I thought Kemp should have one over Braun. (At the time efore Braun was accused of PEDS) Now Braun wasn't a horrific selection, but I personally thought Kemp should have won it. Braun being on a playoff team was likely the key to him winning.

 

[Omar 382]

I could go on with this subject for days. Literally. The BBWAA has given so much fodder over their years.

2006 is the year that jumps immediately to mind, with the MVP award in both leagues. Justin Morneau was the 3rd most valuable player on his own team, yet somehow wins the award over Mauer, Santana and Jeter. Morneau probably shouldn't have finished higher than 6th.

In the NL, Albert Pujols outperformed Ryan Howard in every facet of the game. Pujols' team also made the playoffs while Howard's team missed the playoffs. Better hitter, better fielder, better baserunner, better clutch performer. Everything. Pujols finishes 2nd somehow. Meanwhile, Howard isn't even the MVP of his own team. That distinction belongs to Chase Utley. At best, Howard should have finished 4th behind Pujols, Utley and Beltran.

The 1999 AL MVP is also a fucking atrocity. Pudge Rodriguez had an outstanding year, but shouldn't have finished any higher than 6th.

not really sure where you are coming from on this one. howard had more walks, home runs, rbi's, and total bases; a higher batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, ops+ and wRC+. sure, utley's defense at second base was far better than howard's was at first base, but does that outweigh the offensive production that howard over utley? i don't think so. and i agree pujols should have won the nl mvp, but is it really that big of a travesty? it's very close, with pujols' defense, base running, and contact being what gives him the edge

 

[navamind]

not really sure where you are coming from on this one. howard had more walks, home runs, rbi's, and total bases; a higher batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, ops+ and wRC+. sure, utley's defense at second base was far better than howard's was at first base, but does that outweigh the offensive production that howard over utley? i don't think so. and i agree pujols should have won the nl mvp, but is it really that big of a travesty? it's very close, with pujols' defense, base running, and contact being what gives him the edge

You have to take position into account. In 2006, the average MLB 1B batted .285/.363/.488 with a tOPS+ of 121. The average 2B batted .276/.334/.409 with a tOPS+ of 94. No questioning Howard was a much better hitter that year. But you're comparing 1B, which is primarily an offensive position, to 2B. And when you factor in defense and baserunning, I think Utley's season was better. But I think it's pretty close. Howard had a great year.

It is, however, comical that Howard finished 2nd and Utley finished 14th in '08.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

not really sure where you are coming from on this one. howard had more walks, home runs, rbi's, and total bases; a higher batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, ops+ and wRC+. sure, utley's defense at second base was far better than howard's was at first base, but does that outweigh the offensive production that howard over utley? i don't think so. and i agree pujols should have won the nl mvp, but is it really that big of a travesty? it's very close, with pujols' defense, base running, and contact being what gives him the edge

Yes, actually. Utley wasn't just "far better defensively". He was the best defensive 2B in baseball compared to a poor defensive 1B. There's a huge gap in value there. Utley also put up incredible offensive numbers for a 2B, and was also a great baserunner.

Not to take anything away from Howard, that year was truly great. But Pujols was clearly better. Better AVG, better OBP, better SLG, better OPS+, better defense, better baserunning. He also would have had nearly the same number of HR & RBI had he played in the same number of games. And he made the playoffs while Howard didn't. It really shouldn't have been terribly close.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

You have to take position into account. In 2006, the average MLB 1B batted .285/.363/.488 with a tOPS+ of 121. The average 2B batted .276/.334/.409 with a tOPS+ of 94. No questioning Howard was a much better hitter that year. But you're comparing 1B, which is primarily an offensive position, to 2B. And when you factor in defense and baserunning, I think Utley's season was better. But I think it's pretty close. Howard had a great year.

It is, however, comical that Howard finished 2nd and Utley finished 14th in '08.

That's an even better example, actually.

 

[Omar 382]

Yes, actually. Utley wasn't just "far better defensively". He was the best defensive 2B in baseball compared to a poor defensive 1B. There's a huge gap in value there. Utley also put up incredible offensive numbers for a 2B, and was also a great baserunner.

Not to take anything away from Howard, that year was truly great. But Pujols was clearly better. Better AVG, better OBP, better SLG, better OPS+, better defense, better baserunning. He also would have had nearly the same number of HR & RBI had he played in the same number of games. And he made the playoffs while Howard didn't. It really shouldn't have been terribly close.

to be fair, voting takes place before the playoffs, so the fact that pujols' team made the playoffs and eventually won the world series doesn't factor in the equation. also, if you want to talk about each player's teams, the phils had more wins than the cardinals did that year. they were just in a division where the mets had 97 wins, and the cardinals were in a division where the second place team had 82 wins. i still think howard's year was better than utley's, but i agree that pujols should have won the nl mvp