Michael Crabtree

[Bracus]

With our limited passing game, I don't see how people expect us to have a WR with monster stats. I think Alex is averaging 200 yds a game, that's 3200 average a season. The way he spreads the ball around the WRs and on top of that, the RBs, you can't expect big numbers from any of them.

 

[CalamityX11]

Gotta disagree with you on this one, 'X'.

A WR cannot be as inconsistent and undependable as Crabtree and be a solid number anything. Consistency and dependability are implicit with being solid. Perhaps your definition of solid is different than mine.

I think he's been consistent in the last few games...

In the Giants game, only one miscommunication between him and Alex....

What has he been inconsistent with lately?

 

[tzill]

I've come a long way on Crabtree, but the above is pushing it. He's had "ever changing systems?" It's his 3rd year and 2nd system. His first two years he was in the same system. I think you meant he'd been playing in a bad system (until this year) with ever changing QBs.

My biggest issue with Crabtree has always been his attitude, and that seems to have improved leaps and bounds this year. He appears to have grown up and embraced the concept of team. Was he worth the tenth pick? Not necessarily. Look at the performance of 10th overall picks in recent history. Just don't go back to 1995. It's tough to look at that one.

Ahhh...Jerad Jamal....I still remember his 1994 Rose Bowl -- one of the greatest collegiate performances I've ever seen. Best thing he ever did as a pro was break his hand in 96....I seem to remember someone stepping up for him....

 

[Crimsoncrew]

"I've been pretty vocal on Crabtree, mostly because a couple people tend to fly off the handle on him"

Keep in mind, by contrast, you're one of those "couple people" who fly off the handle as well. Crabtree is an average WR and saying so isn't flying off the handle, it's merely stating a fact - try to calm down.


"but my perspective is that he's a pretty good #2 possession-type at this point."

Sounds like someone is waking up. Stating now that Crabtree: "is a pretty good #2 possession-TYPE [wr] at this point" is in my book and the books of many others I would assume, a rung or two below implying he is a solid #2 WR.

As I mentioned to 'X', you cannot be as inconsistent and undependable as Crabtree and be a solid anything. Consistency and dependability are implicit with being solid. Even being 'pretty good' requires more than what he has delivered. Right now, Crabtree is what I would call 'undefined' as a receiver.

He is neither a vertical threat nor a possession receiver. He is too un-athletic to be one and too inconsistent to be the other; thus, he is undefined. However, and honestly speaking, if he has too many more games similar to this past Sunday, he will be defined as #3 on the depth chart beginning next season or sooner.


"I think he has the potential to be a mid-level #1 guy, but he hasn't put that together for a few reasons."

I wonder what he is considered to be in fantasy leagues?

The above statement perhaps more than any other epitomizes the difference in our opinion of Crabtree. I see Crabtree for what he is, you see him for what you believe he has the potential to become. When I hear the word potential, I am reminded of the words of Bill Parcells, "potential means you ain't done shit yet!"

But I am curious, aside from blaming Alex Smith and other factors, what deficiencies or "reasons" can you attribute to just Crabtree for having not yet reached this mid-level #1 WR status you claim he has?


"Now, even if he hits that level, he'd be something of a disappointment given the pick we used on him. That said, I'm a bit less hard on draft picks than most people are as even in the first round, only 60% or so even turn into solid starters, much less pro bowlers."

I think if he hit the level of performance and production associated with a mid-level #1 he would be achieving a fair expectation for his draft slot. As for the draft pick comment, I guess the question here is, at the point, when it becomes clear that we reached, do you/we just accept it?


"Regarding Crabtree more specifically, he has impressed me lately with his ability to get open."

Well, Crimson, considering he is, after-all, a WR, I'm kind of excited about this - Yeah Crabtree!


"Early in the year, he had some bad drops, but he's cleaned that up recently. However, while he has made some nice catches, especially on high balls, he has continued to drop balls that he has got to catch."

This statement seems false as well as contradictive, I'll explain. Crabtree had a drop on a short pass that cost us a 1st down against CLE, resulting in a punt from inside our five, and I certainly would not call Sunday's drop a good drop. As for the contradiction, this is what you wrote with the fluff removed:

"Early in the year, he had some bad drops, but he's cleaned that up recently. However, he continues to drop balls that he has got to catch."

To me, the very definition of a 'bad drop' is dropping a pass that you 'got to catch'.


"The potential TD this week, for instance, was a tough ball, but one he has GOT to catch, and he dropped a deep ball that would have been a big play at that point. [However], I wouldn't consider those drops as such"

Honest question. Does it ever occur to you as you write out your posts that any player who needs so many excuses, or statements of outright denial on their behalf as is the case with your above comment, that maybe the player just isn't very good?

Think about the following for a moment, Joshua Morgan, Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker, Ted Ginn, Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter & Kyle Williams all operate in the same offense and have the same QB as Michael Crabtree and yet not one of them need a single excuse for their performance's this year.


"Finally, for Crabtree to really excel, he's got to have a good rapport with his QB. He hasn't had that, and he's largely to blame. But while Smith has improved his play a lot this year, he still isn't as pinpoint with his touch or accuracy as the greats, and that hurts Crabtree more than it might hurt other guys."

With the above comment I just wanted to make a few corrections. The first part should have been written as such:

"Finally, for Crabtree to really excel, he's got to have (among many other things) good rapport with his QB. He doesn't have that and aside from some unfortunate as well as suspicious circumstances, he has only himself to blame."


And finally, and this is my favorite of all your Crabtree excuses and perhaps the most hilarious excuse I have ever read or heard afforded an NFL WR

"...while Smith has improved his play a lot this year, he still isn't as pinpoint with his touch or accuracy as the greats, and that hurts Crabtree more than it might hurt other guys."

Seriously? Well maybe we can ask the league for permission to allow Smith to cross the LOS to get a little closer when throwing to Crabtree, or perhaps we can just run the ball downfield and hand it to Crabtree?

Sorry, I just had to poke a little fun at your whole 'pinpoint accuracy' excuse. Besides, Smith is currently ranked 6th in the league in completion percent; thus, it is clearly not Smith who is hurting Crabtree.

And once again, not one of our other receivers needs this excuse, only Crabtree needs this excuse. Just for the record, any NFL receiver would likely be offended by this excuse; therefore, by affording it to Crabtree you only make him look worse - not better. Just a thought.

A few thoughts. I'll try to keep this brief.

First, I have never said Crabtree was a mid-level #1 guy. I have consistently said that he is a good #2. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly said that he has a long way to go to be a decent #2 receiver. That's just plain wrong.

As for being "undefined" as a receiver, that may be true to an extent. But your reasoning here is flawed. Apparently a #2 receiver can only be a possession receiver or a vertical threat. I don't see that. There are plenty of receivers who thrive in the mid-range area but are not conventional possession receivers. Furthermore, no one on our team is a vertical threat because our QB doesn't throw the ball downfield, or at least doesn't do it accurately. Ted Ginn and Braylon Edwards, who have defined "deep threat" on other teams, are not deep threats on this team.

I see a drop as a ball that a receiver should catch but does not. If Larry Fitzgerald goes up high and behind him for a poorly thrown ball, gets a hand on it but can't bring it in, I don't consider that a drop. Crabtree has had some plays like that this season. The would-be TD this week wasn't quite that extreme, and Fitz catches that one. But other than a healthy Edwards, we don't have another guy on our roster other than Crabtree who even gets in position for that ball.

You bring up our other receivers, most of whom you've claimed are better than Crabtree. Let's consider those guys. Ted Ginn? Seriously? You're asking why Ted Ginn doesn't need excuses less than a week after a perfect ball passed through his hands, clanged off his helmet and settled gently in the hands of a defender, nearly costing us the game? I guess he doesn't need an excuse because we've always known he can't catch. This year, he's flourishing to the tune of 10 receptions for 115 yards, no TDs and at least two or three drops. Kyle Williams has had some really nice plays this year. Approximately two of them. Edwards' YPC is down three yards from his season average, and over four full yards from last season. He's sure blossomed in this offense. Gore has at least five drops this year on a quarter of the chances Crabtree has had. He hasn't been able to catch a cold this season. Delanie has had a great season. And has dropped at least three balls including a would-be TD in the Detroit game before he redeemed himself at the end. And Davis leads the team in drops. Which of our receivers is playing at a genuinely high level right now?

Finally, completion percentage now equates to accuracy? This from the guy who's always complaining about stats? Sure thing, chief.

The reality is that our passing game is still weak at best. Our receivers have contributed to it at times, and they have been the victims of it at times. Personally, I think Crabtree is pretty easily our second WR, and with Edwards hampered he may be our best.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

With our limited passing game, I don't see how people expect us to have a WR with monster stats. I think Alex is averaging 200 yds a game, that's 3200 average a season. The way he spreads the ball around the WRs and on top of that, the RBs, you can't expect big numbers from any of them.

Personally I'm not even expecting big numbers. I'm expecting big plays. Plays a game changer type WR should be expected to make especially when he's drafted 10th overall. His drop in the endzone last game is a perfect example. A 10th overall WR is expected to make that catch.

 

[deep9er]

I'd say he's pretty far behind the learning curve in the NFL, but he still has some upside. He's starting to make some plays now, and I think that has a direct correlation with the consistency at the QB position. He's not met expectations, but I still think he can produce at a very good level in the future.

ok, this is close to how i view Crabtree too.

the part i'm not quite with is......he's 'far' behind the learning curve? he is behind but don't think is as bad as implied?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Too late to edit it, but "good #2" probably overstates my position slightly. I'd qualify that to a "pretty good #2" WR, the sort of guy who could be a consistent threat if he played opposite a guy who consistently drew the D's attention. I think he can be more than that, but he's not more than that right now.

 

[MW49ers5]

A few thoughts. I'll try to keep this brief.

First, I have never said Crabtree was a mid-level #1 guy.

Good Lord, Crimson, you didn't even make it past the first sentence before you once again wandered aimlessly into the fucking twilight zone - wth?

Allow me to illustrate what I'm talking about - Here is your opening sentence:


"First, I have never said Crabtree was a mid-level #1 guy."

This sentence is implicative of an accusation, an accusation that was never made, at least, not by me.


Here is a recap of our exchange:

You said:

"I think he has the potential to be a mid-level #1 guy, but he hasn't put that together for a few reasons."

I quipped about his fantasy status, then expressed very succinctly how your attraction to Crabtree's "potential" epitomizes the difference between how you and I see Crabtree. I then asked you to describe the "reasons", beyond blaming Smith, et al, that are keeping Crabtree from being a mid-level #1.

Absolutely, nowhere in our exchange did I directly, indirectly, covertly or otherwise, accuse you of saying that Crabtree is a mid-level #1 guy.

Seriously, Crimson, absolutely nowhere <jsmh>

As for the rest of the BS you posted, it only becomes worse for you, but I'll address it if you want me to.

 

[MW49ers5]

Too late to edit it, but "good #2" probably overstates my position slightly. I'd qualify that to a "pretty good #2" WR, the sort of guy who could be a consistent threat if he played opposite a guy who consistently drew the D's attention. I think he can be more than that, but he's not more than that right now.

Wow, lost, just fucking lost...

From, "Solid" to "Good" to now just "Pretty Good". You can label "Average" with whatever adjective you want Crimsoncrew.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Good Lord, Crimson, you didn't even make it past the first sentence before you once again wandered aimlessly into the fucking twilight zone - wth?

Allow me to illustrate what I'm talking about - Here is your opening sentence:


"First, I have never said Crabtree was a mid-level #1 guy."

This sentence is implicative of an accusation, an accusation that was never made, at least, not by me.


Here is a recap of our exchange:

You said:

"I think he has the potential to be a mid-level #1 guy, but he hasn't put that together for a few reasons."

I quipped about his fantasy status, then expressed very succinctly how your attraction to Crabtree's "potential" epitomizes the difference between how you and I see Crabtree. I then asked you to describe the "reasons", beyond blaming Smith, et al, that are keeping Crabtree from being a mid-level #1.

Absolutely, nowhere in our exchange did I directly, indirectly, covertly or otherwise, accuse you of saying that Crabtree is a mid-level #1 guy.

Seriously, Crimson, absolutely nowhere <jsmh>

As for the rest of the BS you posted, it only becomes worse for you, but I'll address it if you want me to.

Two things. First, you remarked that I am finally coming around to realizing that Crabtree is just a mid-level second receiver, as if that is a chance in my position. That has always been my position, and you are the one who is now changing your stance to state that Crabtree is apparently average.

Second, what was that about Ted Ginn not needing excuses? I need a good laugh today.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Wow, lost, just fucking lost...

From, "Solid" to "Good" to now just "Pretty Good". You can label "Average" with whatever adjective you want Crimsoncrew.

Yes. And "a long way to go to be a decent #2" is not average. I have consistently argued Crabtree is average. You have consistently argued he is well below that threshold.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Note: "chance" above should read "change," in case that isn't obvious. Hate this expiring edit function.

 

[cottontaco]

Crabtree will be a nice #2 if he gets a "nice" #1 (ie Bowe, D Jackson, V Jackson....)

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

Crabtree has the ability, I believe, to be the best receiver on the team. The question is whether or not he is willing to put in the work required to get there. So far, he hasn't done it. Each year he has found a way to stay out of training camp and that indicates to me an unwillingness to work hard and a willingness to accept mediocrity as his standard for success in the NFL.

 

[zman1527]

Crabtree has not shown that he will ever be an elite #1. If he was gonna be that, by now we would have seen something. By that I mean he would have made an explosive play or two: catching a short pass, breaking a tackle, juking another guy and going 70 yards for a td. I have seen nothing close to that. He is above average at best.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

I wanted to look at some of our other receivers again, a little more closely, to see if they need excuses or not.

Braylon Edwards has struggled with the injury this year, but in his one truly healthy game he put up three catches for 27 yards against a Hawks team that isn't exactly great against the pass. He had a couple chances in that game to make some tough but potentially big plays, though he was also being held a lot. He has yet to break 50 yards receiving this year, and his YPC is way down. Presumably some of that is due to injury, but he's on pace for his worst season since he was a rookie.

Josh Morgan was probably having his best season before the injury. Of our three top receivers, he's also the only one that was healthy early in the year. Yet in three of his five games, he had 35 yards receiving or less, and only once did he catch more than three balls. Interestingly, his top games are 75 and 65 yards, compared to Crabtree's 77 and 68.

Ted Ginn actually got two starts with all our injuries. He also got quite a bit of PT early in the year with Crabtree and Edwards dealing with injuries. In nine games, he has failed to catch a ball in four of them, including one of the starts. His yardage totals are 39, 38, 24, and 14. He doesn't have a TD. He's got at least three drops to go with his ten receptions, including last week's INT. He's made far more of an impact running the ball than as a receiver, and is on pace for his worst receiving season other than last year.

Kyle Williams and his four receptions hardly bear mentioning. He's got some potential, but that's all he's got right now.

Vernon Davis has once again forgotten how to catch. He's got at least five drops, including the absolutely awful drop on the long ball last week. He's been feast or famine this year, with three or four good games and several more forgettable games. He's had games of 8 and 18 yards on the season, and has only broken 47 yards once.

Delanie Walker is having his best all-around season by far. His blocking has been a huge part of our success. And still, he has numerous drops and has been held below 21 yards receiving on six occasions.

And finally we turn to Michael Crabtree. Maligned, underperforming, woefully mediocre Michael Crabtree. He hasn't had a big game this year. He hasn't really even had a particularly big play this year (though he was robbed of what should have been a relatively big TD in Cincy and his two-point conversion was fairly significant this past week). And yet, he's been easily our most consistent receiver this season. He has half-again the most receptions of the next guy on the roster, and has broken 50 yards in four of his seven-and-a-half games. Discounting week one when he was hurting - though he did have a blatant drop in that one - Crabtree's worst week was this past one, when he had 21 yards and the two-point conversion.

So when someone says Crabtree is the only guy on our roster who needs excuses, I've got to wonder what are our expectations are for the rest of the roster. Cause none of our receivers have been lighting it up.

 

[MW49ers5]

I wanted to look at some of our other receivers again, a little more closely, to see if they need excuses or not.

Braylon Edwards has struggled with the injury this year, but in his one truly healthy game he put up three catches for 27 yards against a Hawks team that isn't exactly great against the pass. He had a couple chances in that game to make some tough but potentially big plays, though he was also being held a lot. He has yet to break 50 yards receiving this year, and his YPC is way down. Presumably some of that is due to injury, but he's on pace for his worst season since he was a rookie.

Josh Morgan was probably having his best season before the injury. Of our three top receivers, he's also the only one that was healthy early in the year. Yet in three of his five games, he had 35 yards receiving or less, and only once did he catch more than three balls. Interestingly, his top games are 75 and 65 yards, compared to Crabtree's 77 and 68.

Ted Ginn actually got two starts with all our injuries. He also got quite a bit of PT early in the year with Crabtree and Edwards dealing with injuries. In nine games, he has failed to catch a ball in four of them, including one of the starts. His yardage totals are 39, 38, 24, and 14. He doesn't have a TD. He's got at least three drops to go with his ten receptions, including last week's INT. He's made far more of an impact running the ball than as a receiver, and is on pace for his worst receiving season other than last year.

Kyle Williams and his four receptions hardly bear mentioning. He's got some potential, but that's all he's got right now.

Vernon Davis has once again forgotten how to catch. He's got at least five drops, including the absolutely awful drop on the long ball last week. He's been feast or famine this year, with three or four good games and several more forgettable games. He's had games of 8 and 18 yards on the season, and has only broken 47 yards once.

Delanie Walker is having his best all-around season by far. His blocking has been a huge part of our success. And still, he has numerous drops and has been held below 21 yards receiving on six occasions.

And finally we turn to Michael Crabtree. Maligned, underperforming, woefully mediocre Michael Crabtree. He hasn't had a big game this year. He hasn't really even had a particularly big play this year (though he was robbed of what should have been a relatively big TD in Cincy and his two-point conversion was fairly significant this past week). And yet, he's been easily our most consistent receiver this season. He has half-again the most receptions of the next guy on the roster, and has broken 50 yards in four of his seven-and-a-half games. Discounting week one when he was hurting - though he did have a blatant drop in that one - Crabtree's worst week was this past one, when he had 21 yards and the two-point conversion.

So when someone says Crabtree is the only guy on our roster who needs excuses, I've got to wonder what are our expectations are for the rest of the roster. Cause none of our receivers have been lighting it up.

Crimson, writing this entire post serves to only to further confirm your incompetence.

Pay attention, YOU shower Michael Crabtree with excuses and denial statements because YOU believe he is better than he really is. Our other receivers do not need excuses because there are no idiots running around the board claiming any of them are a "Solid #2" when they are not.

Also, and to help you with your permanent state of confusion, yes there is a difference between excusing a play vs. excusing a player. Now, I know this simple context greatly exceeds your intellectual capacity, so feel free to spew MORE excuses to which my response will be - Yawn...

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Crimson, writing this entire post serves to only to further confirm your incompetence.

Pay attention, YOU shower Michael Crabtree with excuses and denial statements because YOU believe he is better than he really is. Our other receivers do not need excuses because there are no idiots running around the board claiming any of them are a "Solid #2" when they are not.

Also, and to help you with your permanent state of confusion, yes there is a difference between excusing a play vs. excusing a player. Now, I know this simple context greatly exceeds your intellectual capacity, so feel free to spew MORE excuses to which my response will be - Yawn...

You have claimed that Morgan, Davis, Walker, Williams, Ginn, and even Bogan are as good or better than Crabtree. Given the performances of these other guys, I'd say they absolutely need excuses to justify that stance. Ted Ginn and Kyle Williams better than Crabtree based on performance this season? Whatever you say, chief.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Just a reminder of your statement, MW:

Think about the following for a moment, Joshua Morgan, Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker, Ted Ginn, Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter & Kyle Williams all operate in the same offense and have the same QB as Michael Crabtree and yet not one of them need a single excuse for their performance's this year.


Apparently your view is that they don't need excuses because they just aren't very good. Fair enough. It's hard to argue any of these guys has really excelled this year other than perhaps Morgan, and that's only relative to her performance in past years. But that doesn't exactly make those guys an effective counterpoint when discussing Crabtree's struggles.

And again, you throw out the insults readily enough. Not much to back up your claims, though. It's getting to be a pretty tired act.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Noting Braylon Edwards dropping a would-be TD.