Manning chooses Broncos

[ViperVisor]

Good. Then nothing you've posted supports your claim that he had a very good year. Everything I've posted points to him having an average year.

 

[wartyOne]

Yeah, but Warty obviously this was a very low-risk, low-reward offense where the first and second priorities were to control field position. Clearly Smith's limitations were part of the idea there, but we saw many times where the offense was opened up and executed better. In fact, I would say more often than not.....when allowed to open it up, they moved the ball better.

Personally I put a season like Brees' in the "Great" category, and Eli in the "very good" category....but Smith, at 17/5 TD/INT, 61% completions, 7.1 ypa.....I would think that qualifies as "good" to any reasonable person.

I agree with your categorization for Brees and Eli. I think Alex had a great year by his previous standards. But I also think it's an average year when compared to the rest of the quarterbacks in the league. Regardless of the reason as to why we limited the offense (whether by execution, design or "other").

Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time considering 197 passing yards and 1.1 TD's a game as good. That screams average for QB play at this level to me. I certainly wouldn't consider that "very good."

 

[wartyOne]

That's it?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

You said "criminally bad", unjustifiable in any light. Too much coffee this morning?



this is just it....why do you frame it like this? I doubt a single person here says he's so very good, or has so much promise. Why do you jump straight to the exaggerations? The argument is with "below-average in virtually every other area" type comments. Everything is exaggerated. Everything is hyperbole. Its statements like that that drive people toward the extremes. I try my best to stay fair, but I know it just doesn't work.....so I'm willing to take my lumps when people say I'm not being fair. I'll try to drop this, its a stupid way to spend a day.

In my limited experience with this Crimsoncrew I can say that every word of this post is precise. And although it does not list all the fallacies used by Crimsoncrew, it is a start and is very respectfully stated. I hope he takes this to heart. Great Post!

Except the part where he said no one has claimed Smith was very good. Viper has stated that repeatedly now. As such, I wasn't exaggerating when I repeated it. As that was effectively Space's only claim that was even close to fact-based, it turns out that very little of his post was precise.

In my fairly extensive experience with you and your alter ego, I can say that your continued inability to keep the facts straight is par for the course.

 

[wartyOne]

What?

He was below average in TD%. Average in yards per, Solid Comp%. GREAT in INT%.

The other things matter and that is why it wasn't a great year.

But still Very Good overall.

What is dismissed is when I or someone else points out the failure of our targets to catch balls somewhat consistently or O-Line to pass protect somewhat consistently.

How could he be below average in TD% and average in yards per when he ranked 17 in both?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Crimson.....now we're parsing, but there is a difference between saying someone "is" very good, and "was" very good during some timeframe. Saying Smith was very good last year is defensible.......I wouldn't say "very", but there's an argument there.

Again, nobody is saying he "is" very good as you claimed, but maybe this is an oversight.

Yes, we are parsing, and you're the one doing it. To paraphrase the conversation:

Viper: Smith was very good last year.

Crimson: If Smith is so very good, why aren't more teams interested?

Space: No one has said Smith is very good.

You are the one drawing a distinction between Viper's statement that "Smith was very good last year" and my statement that some people think "Smith is very good." These statements, if not identical, are certainly very similar, but you are not only distinguishing them, but claiming they are miles apart. That's basically the definition of parsing.

Assuming that Smith isn't going to dramatically relapse, which seems reasonable, I think it's safe to say that Viper, and most likely Iguana, think he's very good. If nothing else, it's certainly not hyperbole for me to ascribe that position to them. At worst it slightly overstates their views, and by referring to it as hyperbole you are engaging in hyperbole.

 

[ViperVisor]

How could he be below average in TD% and average in yards per when he ranked 17 in both?

Recheck the numbers.

And 15,16,17 is average or within and margin of error that isn't worth the hair splitting.

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Smith was very good. I have backed that unbold statement with lots of factual info.

I am not informed on the Jets Situation but probably had something to do with cap as he already had one of those big rookie deals.


There were 5 teams that just took a QB high in 2011 draft *Cin *Min *Jax *Tenn *Car.
1 team signed up a QB *AZ 1 resigned a QB *BUF.
2 mega QB prospects in this draft.

That is 9 teams out of the market.

Add in the teams with establishes QBs that they believe are good and ascending or already better than that.

You only have a handful of spots that might of wanted Alex Smith.

And it is a business where ownership has to sell Smith regardless of his potential play on the field. His name isn't selling tickets.

Here's the thing: when very good QBs hit the market, there is a demand for them. When Drew Brees hit FA, there was a pretty serious bidding war for him, resulting in him being one of the higher paid QBs in the league even though he was coming off an injury to his throwing shoulder. When Smith hit the open market, no one made a serious move to pursue him, even after the Niners "low-balled" him.

If teams thought Smith was even close to the Brees realm - and remember, this is before Brees' career with the Saints - would the Ravens really prefer to stand pat with Flacco? Would the Jets really just give Sanchez much more money rather than taking a look at Smith? Would the Seahawks go for an unknown if they were pretty sure they could get very good? There are probably eight more teams minimum that fall into this category. I haven't seen an explanation for why neither the Fins nor the Hawks made serious offers, or why no one else did either. If he really was very good last year, why doesn't the league think more of him?

 

[Crimsoncrew]

Yeah, but Warty obviously this was a very low-risk, low-reward offense where the first and second priorities were to control field position. Clearly Smith's limitations were part of the idea there, but we saw many times where the offense was opened up and executed better. In fact, I would say more often than not.....when allowed to open it up, they moved the ball better.

Personally I put a season like Brees' in the "Great" category, and Eli in the "very good" category....but Smith, at 17/5 TD/INT, 61% completions, 7.1 ypa.....I would think that qualifies as "good" to any reasonable person.

I disagree. We called deep throws with some regularity. We almost never hit them. That's not all on Smith. But the playcalling was not as vanilla as some would make it out to be. We called shots down the field, and Smith regularly didn't see the open man, missed his receiver, or didn't pull the trigger.

Smith generally did a very nice job when we had to score to win the game. When we didn't, even if the gameplan was aggressive, he did very little. He has to bear a fair bit of responsibility for that IMO. Not total responsibility, but quite a bit. That's part of being the QB.

Regarding how we qualify Smith's performance, I would give him good. I think he was slightly below average in most areas, but the turnovers bump him up. We've got a QB who can win us some games when the defense and STs keep us in it. That's more than several teams have. But I'd like more if we can get it, either out of Smith or someone else. Based on reports of the contract offer, it really looks like the FO agrees with my assessment.

 

[ViperVisor]

I didn't say Smith was an established Very Good QB.

He had a Very Good year.

NO chance in hell there are 8 more teams minimum beyond BAL NYJ and SEA in that category. I looked at it it before picking that number of 5 legit spots for a QB like Smith.

And like I said before it has something to do with fanfare and the lack of it Smith would bring. I don't know how much.

 

[erckm510]

I didn't say Smith was an established Very Good QB.

He had a Very Good year.

NO chance in hell there are 8 more teams minimum beyond BAL NYJ and SEA in that category. I looked at it it before picking that number of 5 legit spots for a QB like Smith.

And like I said before it has something to do with fanfare and the lack of it Smith would bring. I don't know how much.

I would say he had a very average year. Which is his best year of his career.

 

[h0ckeysk83r]

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[TobyTyler]

35.9% First Down on 3rd down passes is not good. True.

Stafford was 37.4%, Eli was 38.3%.

3rd down conversion is tough to do. You need skill and a well oiled machine on offense typically. A good and experienced QB, Not a mash unit of WRs and Not a inconsistent OL. The defense has a good idea of what you want to do and it is often threading a needle.

I would hope it would get better in 2012.

Especially when your running back consistently gets you a yard on first down plowing up the middle.

 

[TobyTyler]

Here's the thing: when very good QBs hit the market, there is a demand for them. When Drew Brees hit FA, there was a pretty serious bidding war for him, resulting in him being one of the higher paid QBs in the league even though he was coming off an injury to his throwing shoulder. When Smith hit the open market, no one made a serious move to pursue him, even after the Niners "low-balled" him.

If teams thought Smith was even close to the Brees realm - and remember, this is before Brees' career with the Saints - would the Ravens really prefer to stand pat with Flacco? Would the Jets really just give Sanchez much more money rather than taking a look at Smith? Would the Seahawks go for an unknown if they were pretty sure they could get very good? There are probably eight more teams minimum that fall into this category. I haven't seen an explanation for why neither the Fins nor the Hawks made serious offers, or why no one else did either. If he really was very good last year, why doesn't the league think more of him?

I thought only the Saints and Dolphins showed any interest in Brees who was coming off a shoulder injury.

 

[spacedoodoopistol]

OK guys, I think we're getting there......just get this dialed in a bit more and pretty soon we're all gonna agree on precisely how good Smith was last year.

 

[TobyTyler]

OK guys, I think we're getting there......just get this dialed in a bit more and pretty soon we're all gonna agree on precisely how good Smith was last year.

Sometimes very good as in the New Orleans, Tampa and Philly games and sometimes very bad as in the Giants, Cardinals and Ravens games. He can get the job done as part of a good team but cannot carry a team on his shoulders ala manning, Brady, Brees etc.

 

[imac_21]

What?

He was below average in TD%. Average in yards per, Solid Comp%. GREAT in INT%.

The other things matter and that is why it wasn't a great year.

But still Very Good overall.

What is dismissed is when I or someone else points out the failure of our targets to catch balls somewhat consistently or O-Line to pass protect somewhat consistently.

That's bullshit. Pure and simple.

 

[jayviabay]

Sometimes very good as in the New Orleans, Tampa and Philly games and sometimes very bad as in the Giants, Cardinals and Ravens games. He can get the job done as part of a good team but cannot carry a team on his shoulders ala manning, Brady, Brees etc.

are you talking regular season or the playoff game?

 

[imac_21]

Jesus Christ...

*God Like*
Rodgers
*MVP*
Brees
*Great*
Tom Brady
Tony Romo
Matthew Stafford
Eli Manning
*Very Good*
Matt Ryan
Alex Smith

Elementary school adjectives. Not hard to comprehend.

You're right, it isn't hard to comprehend. C/C+ is not very good. Not ever.

 

[h-hour]

Not making excuses for or against Smith when I say this, but how about better play calling in the red zone?

Shit, how about better playcalling all around? For whoever lines up under center.