Maddux, Glavine, Thomas elected to HOF

[Droopdog51]

Nolan Ryan's already in, as he should be.

Before I jump in, I just need clarification that your are calling Nolan Ryan the most overrated pitcher. Is that what you are really trying to say?

 

[StanMarsh51]

Before I jump in, I just need clarification that your are calling Nolan Ryan the most overrated pitcher. Is that what you are really trying to say?

I'd agree with that. There are just so many people who think Ryan's a top 5-10 pitcher of all time (especially with the casual fans).

 

[gunnarthor]

I'd agree with that. There are just so many people who think Ryan's a top 5-10 pitcher of all time (especially with the casual fans).

6th all time in fWAR. He has a case for it. Personally, I think some people under rate him based on rate stats and ignore the innings and starts. (And his fip is pretty close to Pedro's with about twice as many innings)

Most overrated SP of recent vintage would be Pedro, for the same reasons - great rate stats, tiny innings.

 

[broncosmitty]

5th in innings, 14th in Wins. Not really sure why Nolan Ryan would be OVERRATED. Unless somebody has decided that keeping a low ERA and WHIP while pitching the 5th most innings ever is the only way someone can be worthy. (Or if they claim Nolan is greater than Walter Johnson or Cy Young). Innings being the most important thing any pitcher can do of course.

 

[broncosmitty]

I'd agree with that. There are just so many people who think Ryan's a top 5-10 pitcher of all time (especially with the casual fans).

You don't believe Nolan Ryan is a Top Ten starter? Id like to see your list if that's the case.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You don't believe Nolan Ryan is a Top Ten starter? Id like to see your list if that's the case.

10 guys historically I'd say were better than Ryan (in no order)...whether or not the below are top 10 is another story:

Maddux
Clemens
Randy Johnson
Seaver
Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Mathewson
Pete Alexander
Grove
Spahn

I know Ryan threw a lot of innings and they have value, but a good chunk of his seasons weren't anything special. I don't think he had the peak/prime to compensate for that like some of the other guys above did.

 

[broncosmitty]

10 guys historically I'd say were better than Ryan (in no order)...whether or not the below are top 10 is another story:

Maddux
Clemens
Randy Johnson
Seaver
Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Mathewson
Pete Alexander
Grove
Spahn

I know Ryan threw a lot of innings and they have value, but a good chunk of his seasons weren't anything special. I don't think he had the peak/prime to compensate for that like some of the other guys above did.

I like your list aside from the top portion of it. I might have Addie Joss in there over Maddux and The Big Unit and probably Grove. (In contrast to total innings) But Ryan's innings totals alone should have him in there safely.

 

[gunnarthor]

10 guys historically I'd say were better than Ryan (in no order)...whether or not the below are top 10 is another story:

Maddux
Clemens
Randy Johnson
Seaver
Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Mathewson
Pete Alexander
Grove
Spahn

I know Ryan threw a lot of innings and they have value, but a good chunk of his seasons weren't anything special. I don't think he had the peak/prime to compensate for that like some of the other guys above did.

It's not a bad list but it's iffy. Young and Mathewson don't fit into modern baseball much and I think you're over rating these deadball guys.

Spahn shouldn't be on that list.

 

[Droopdog51]

5th in innings, 14th in Wins. Not really sure why Nolan Ryan would be OVERRATED. Unless somebody has decided that keeping a low ERA and WHIP while pitching the 5th most innings ever is the only way someone can be worthy. (Or if they claim Nolan is greater than Walter Johnson or Cy Young). Innings being the most important thing any pitcher can do of course.

You do realize that wins require your team to score runs and is not a very accurate measuring stick for a pitcher? Nolan was on alot of teams that were average at best. More often than not, down right bad. He has a career ERA of 3.19 and only 324 wins. Maddux (the guy with the 24" strike zone) has a career ERA of 3.16 and has 31 more wins. Why because he played on a team that consistantly won the division and had an offense. Take 1987 for example, he had a 2.76 ERA and an 8-16 record.

But hey if you don't consider Ks, ERA, and Opponents BA to be important stats for a pitcher, I gues you have that right.

One more stat for you, Nolan Ryan Career Batting Average against - .204. Greg Maddux - .234. But yeah, Ryan is overrated because he doesn't have the number of wins that Maddux has.

 

[cezero]

the hof is a joke until they either strike rose's numbers from the record, or put him in the hof.

i know morons out there will say that mlb has every right to keep him out of the hof, all vapid-looking while they say it. i'm sure they'll chime in soon enough.

same with all of the PED users who MLB and the players union turned a complete blind eye toward until a few congressman decided to attack MLB to score points with their most narrow-minded constituents....some of whom will undoubtedly chime in with stupid responses to this.

 

[broncosmitty]

You do realize that wins require your team to score runs and is not a very accurate measuring stick for a pitcher? Nolan was on alot of teams that were average at best. More often than not, down right bad. He has a career ERA of 3.19 and only 324 wins. Maddux (the guy with the 24" strike zone) has a career ERA of 3.16 and has 31 more wins. Why because he played on a team that consistantly won the division and had an offense. Take 1987 for example, he had a 2.76 ERA and an 8-16 record.

But hey if you don't consider Ks, ERA, and Opponents BA to be important stats for a pitcher, I gues you have that right.

One more stat for you, Nolan Ryan Career Batting Average against - .204. Greg Maddux - .234. But yeah, Ryan is overrated because he doesn't have the number of wins that Maddux has.

What's your point? Are you upset I don't believe Greg Maddux to be a Top Ten pitcher? Or that I value innings pitched over every other pitching statistic? (Im aware that a run must be scored in order for a win to occur, yes.)

 

[StanMarsh51]

You do realize that wins require your team to score runs and is not a very accurate measuring stick for a pitcher? Nolan was on alot of teams that were average at best. More often than not, down right bad. He has a career ERA of 3.19 and only 324 wins. Maddux (the guy with the 24" strike zone) has a career ERA of 3.16 and has 31 more wins. Why because he played on a team that consistantly won the division and had an offense. Take 1987 for example, he had a 2.76 ERA and an 8-16 record.

But hey if you don't consider Ks, ERA, and Opponents BA to be important stats for a pitcher, I gues you have that right.

One more stat for you, Nolan Ryan Career Batting Average against - .204. Greg Maddux - .234. But yeah, Ryan is overrated because he doesn't have the number of wins that Maddux has.

Terrible use of ERA....Ryan played most of his career during more pitcher friendly times.

Ryan's career ERA was 12% better than league average during his career
Maddux' career ERA was 32% better than league average during his career

To illustrate how different the eras were, Ryan finished top 5 in his league in ERA 5x, while Maddux did so 10x.

In other words, a 3.00 ERA for a pitcher who pitched most of his career before 1990 isn't the equivalent as a 3.00 ERA for a pitcher who pitched most of his career after 1990.


So if you're think Ryan was as good as Maddux, you're clearly overrating Ryan.

 

[Droopdog51]

What's your point? Are you upset I don't believe Greg Maddux to be a Top Ten pitcher? Or that I value innings pitched over every other pitching statistic? (Im aware that a run must be scored in order for a win to occur, yes.)

I got the impression you were saying Ryan was overrated because he was fifth in innings pitched but only 14th in wins. If that is not what you were saying then I don't have a beef with you.

i hear it too often that Ryan wasn't a great pitcher because he is barely over .500.

 

[cezero]

What's your point? Are you upset I don't believe Greg Maddux to be a Top Ten pitcher? Or that I value innings pitched over every other pitching statistic? (Im aware that a run must be scored in order for a win to occur, yes.)

agreed

and speaking as a guy who has seen a remarkable pitcher get ridiculous amounts of ND and L while pitching brilliantly over and over again, while backed by a historically incompetent offense that couldn't score him ONE fucking run while he was on the mound a disproportionate number of times.

IP is big. another one that I look at is a consistently low BABIP which is hard to do for pitchers. scherzer's was absurd this year, but he's also manage to keep it very low every year he's pitched. maddux's and glavine's were actually pretty remarkable as well, so i have little problem with them making the hof.

 

[Droopdog51]

Terrible use of ERA....Ryan played most of his career during more pitcher friendly times.

Ryan's career ERA was 12% better than league average during his career
Maddux' career ERA was 32% better than league average during his career

To illustrate how different the eras were, Ryan finished top 5 in his league in ERA 5x, while Maddux did so 10x.

In other words, a 3.00 ERA for a pitcher who pitched most of his career before 1990 isn't the equivalent as a 3.00 ERA for a pitcher who pitched most of his career after 1990.


So if you're think Ryan was as good as Maddux, you're clearly overrating Ryan.

Yeah and pitching was less watered down in the 70s & 80s.

I do think Ryan was better than Maddux, but its very close. I can see your point, I don't agree but the difference between the two is not worth arguing about. I used Maddux to compare stats because some people are upset thqt Maddux was not on every ballot and claim Ryan is over rated. I think both Maddux (even though I hated evry team he played for) and Ryan were the best pitchers of their generation.

 

[broncosmitty]

I got the impression you were saying Ryan was overrated because he was fifth in innings pitched but only 14th in wins. If that is not what you were saying then I don't have a beef with you.

i hear it too often that Ryan wasn't a great pitcher because he is barely over .500.

I can see where the confusion was coming from. Id have Nolan safely in the 8-12 range. Ks, WHIP and ERA take a backseat to innings Imo. As in, whatever you gotta do to give me those innings. And for the sake of avoiding future misunderstanding, my "Top" lists are done from the standpoint of you get a guy, for his entire career. Youth, prime, twighlight, you name it, you get it all. And to me, totals innings shines thru in that situation. (I do value wins still. Plenty of pitchers do whatever they can in order to make Team Ws possible and personal Ws in turn). Walter Johnson and Cy seriously stand out to me.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Yeah and pitching was less watered down in the 70s & 80s.

I do think Ryan was better than Maddux, but its very close. I can see your point, I don't agree but the difference between the two is not worth arguing about. I used Maddux to compare stats because some people are upset thqt Maddux was not on every ballot and claim Ryan is over rated. I think both Maddux (even though I hated evry team he played for) and Ryan were the best pitchers of their generation.

Very debatable that the pitching was less watered down in the '70s and '80s, as you can conversely argue that the talent pool got bigger in the past 20 or so years....but that's another story.

I don't see how Ryan was the best pitcher of his generation over Seaver (whose career overlapped by 20 years with Ryan's). Ryan allowed less hits and struck out more batters, but it ends there.

An interesting tidbit about Seaver and Ryan's teams:
Ryan had a .525 win %, and the teams he played on had a .507 win %
Seaver had a .603 win %, and the teams he played on had a .501 win %

It's quite telling, especially over a 20+ year career where things might tend to even out a bit. When Ryan won, he was dominant, but when he lost, he tended not to pitch well. He was a guy who'd go 9 shutout innings one start, then go 5 innings giving 5 runs the next.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I like your list aside from the top portion of it. I might have Addie Joss in there over Maddux and The Big Unit and probably Grove. (In contrast to total innings) But Ryan's innings totals alone should have him in there safely.

I'd argue that the greatness/dominance that the other guys had more than compensate for any gap in innings. Even if you were to takeout the worst 500 inning stretch of Ryan's career (just using that number since it seems a few guys on the list are around 500 innings lower than Ryan), Ryan's numbers still wouldn't be as good.

 

[broncosmitty]

agreed

and speaking as a guy who has seen a remarkable pitcher get ridiculous amounts of ND and L while pitching brilliantly over and over again, while backed by a historically incompetent offense that couldn't score him ONE fucking run while he was on the mound a disproportionate number of times.

IP is big. another one that I look at is a consistently low BABIP which is hard to do for pitchers. scherzer's was absurd this year, but he's also manage to keep it very low every year he's pitched. maddux's and glavine's were actually pretty remarkable as well, so i have little problem with them making the hof.

Scherzer is a very interesting pitcher. His downfall, until this season, was the untimely big hit. Then this year, if he had a chink, it still was. The 1-2 homer, the two out double he just couldn't keep his slate clean. Not gonna lie, Max drives me nuts. (Not as much this past season, but still.). He was a nibbler. And it killed his innings. (He's never went CG). He appeared to step into a new phase in June of '12, we'll see how far he can take it. (I secretly hope he gets dealt (with a ride along guy)to your M's for Walker and Franklin/Ackley). As far as King Felix goes..... 13-12 wasn't impressive back in 2010. But his innings and ERA sure were. But then again, 13 wins out of 61 total, is pretty damn good. Like Walter Johnson's 1911 season. He won 25, his Senators 64.

 

[broncosmitty]

I'd argue that the greatness/dominance that the other guys had more than compensate for any gap in innings. Even if you were to takeout the worst 500 inning stretch of Ryan's career (just using that number since it seems a few guys on the list are around 500 innings lower than Ryan), Ryan's numbers still wouldn't be as good.

There definitely are guys who've strung together seasons that Ryan can't compete with. Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax and Pedro haven't even been mentioned on the All-time list, and they all had crazy stretches. (Felix Hernandez and Kershaw may also be doing that as well.)But in each individual season it's innings that I want out of starters. (High marks in other stats definitely are advantageous to higher innings). So when looking at career marks I still value time spent on the hill more than anything. (And no, Phil Niekro and Gaylord Perry aren't near my Top Ten)