Maddux, Glavine, Thomas elected to HOF

[wood20ks]

Greg Maddux----In a heartbeat.Always one of thee best pitchwers most every year.HOF worthy 1st ballot.
Frank Thomas-----maybe
Mike Mussina-----was just a good pitcher,not great.
Tom Glavine------possibly
Jeff Kent---I can see it.
Kenny Rogers
Luis Gonzalez
Moises Alou

Holdovers:
Craig Biggio---possibly
Jack Morris
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza-----------Sure.
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens----NO!
Barry Bonds------NO!
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire-----No!
Don Mattingly------A good ballplayer,for just a few years.
Sammy Sosa---------NO!
Rafael Palmeiro -------NO!

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Greg Maddux----In a heartbeat.Always one of thee best pitchwers most every year.HOF worthy 1st ballot.
Frank Thomas-----maybe
Mike Mussina-----was just a good pitcher,not great.
Tom Glavine------possibly
Jeff Kent---I can see it.
Kenny Rogers
Luis Gonzalez
Moises Alou

Holdovers:
Craig Biggio---possibly
Jack Morris
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza-----------Sure.
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens----NO!
Barry Bonds------NO!
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire-----No!
Don Mattingly------A good ballplayer,for just a few years.
Sammy Sosa---------NO!
Rafael Palmeiro -------NO!

Compelling arguments.

 

[navamind]

Greg Maddux----In a heartbeat.Always one of thee best pitchwers most every year.HOF worthy 1st ballot.
Frank Thomas-----maybe
Mike Mussina-----was just a good pitcher,not great.
Tom Glavine------possibly
Jeff Kent---I can see it.
Kenny Rogers
Luis Gonzalez
Moises Alou

Holdovers:
Craig Biggio---possibly
Jack Morris
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza-----------Sure.
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens----NO!
Barry Bonds------NO!
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire-----No!
Don Mattingly------A good ballplayer,for just a few years.
Sammy Sosa---------NO!
Rafael Palmeiro -------NO!

He may have been one of the best pitchwers, but was he one of the best pitchers?

 

[wood20ks]

He may have been one of the best pitchwers, but was he one of the best pitchers?

He dominated for a very long time.........hell yes he is one of the best ever.

 

[luvthemeagl1]

Greg Maddux
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Frank Thomas
Mike Mussina
Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

wow, this ballot is absolutely loaded... all of these guys I believe are HOFers...

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

The interesting thing about Schilling is that, through his age 33 season, he put up very respectful k/bb numbers - 3.49k/bb (slightly worse than Johan Santana) but somehow, magically, in his age 34-40 seasons managed to increase his krate by 1 per 9/ip while lowering his walk rate and posting a never remotely seen before 6.50k/bb rate over those years. At an age when most pitchers (say Glavine) decline. And he had this late career renaissance at the height of the PED scandal while pitching in AZ and Boston. Amazing. I guess avg 127 ip/season from 27-29 kept him fresh.

In any event, the Glavine/Schilling debate is interesting, they're pretty close. I think Schillings peaks were better but Glavine's consistency is more impressive to me. And he was a pretty solid hitter for a pitcher. If you like WAR, if you add in their career batting WAR to go with pitching WAR, Glavine's career value actually slips above Schilling, 81.5 - 79.9.

I'm going to come back to this for a second...

Most pitchers' control improves as they age, generally, correct? And league-wide strikeout rates have been increasing for years, correct? So a guy increasing his K/BB ratio late in his career shouldn't be surprising for someone who started his career in the early 90s and finished in the mid-2000s.

Again, Schilling very well may have been on PEDs, but I don't see how that would help his K/BB ratio. To the best of my knowledge, he never had a velocity increase. He just became a better control pitcher while still maintaining his power, and pitched in an era where strikeouts were becoming more frequent.

And while I like WAR, I couldn't care less what a pitcher does with the bat. It doesn't add or take anything away from their candidacy IMO, unless we're talking about Wes Ferrell.

 

[EnterSandman]

Maddux
Thomas
Bagwell
Piazza
Bonds
Clemens
Mussina
Schilling
Raines
Biggio or Glavine would be my 10th

Then, I would also say Kent, Trammell, Walker, and probably Martinez are deserving.

 

[gunnarthor]

I'm going to come back to this for a second...

Most pitchers' control improves as they age, generally, correct? And league-wide strikeout rates have been increasing for years, correct? So a guy increasing his K/BB ratio late in his career shouldn't be surprising for someone who started his career in the early 90s and finished in the mid-2000s.

Again, Schilling very well may have been on PEDs, but I don't see how that would help his K/BB ratio. To the best of my knowledge, he never had a velocity increase. He just became a better control pitcher while still maintaining his power, and pitched in an era where strikeouts were becoming more frequent.

And while I like WAR, I couldn't care less what a pitcher does with the bat. It doesn't add or take anything away from their candidacy IMO, unless we're talking about Wes Ferrell.

In 2001, the krate in the NL was 7.0 K/9 and it fell every subsequent season. According to fangraphs, strikeouts peaked in the NL in 2001. Walk rates were 3.3 and went up slightly the next two seasons. So, no, Schilling didn't move in the general direction of the league. He went the other way. And it's similar in the AL when he makes the switch, going from 6.4 k/9 to 6.2 back to 6.4.

I've never heard that a pitcher's control improves as they age. It may be true, but I've never heard it.

Glavine was clearly the better hitter. That has no impact on who was the better pitcher but it has some value (however you want to weigh it) in who was the better player. Somehow, Glavine managed an OBP of .244 with over 100 walks in his career. Those extended innings clearly helped the Braves and hurt the opponents.

 

[da55bums]

In 2001, the krate in the NL was 7.0 K/9 and it fell every subsequent season. According to fangraphs, strikeouts peaked in the NL in 2001. Walk rates were 3.3 and went up slightly the next two seasons. So, no, Schilling didn't move in the general direction of the league. He went the other way. And it's similar in the AL when he makes the switch, going from 6.4 k/9 to 6.2 back to 6.4.

I've never heard that a pitcher's control improves as they age. It may be true, but I've never heard it.

Glavine was clearly the better hitter. That has no impact on who was the better pitcher but it has some value (however you want to weigh it) in who was the better player. Somehow, Glavine managed an OBP of .244 with over 100 walks in his career. Those extended innings clearly helped the Braves and hurt the opponents.

Very good to great pitchers...start to get HIT when their ball no longer moves like it did or have the velocity it once had....they learn to not give free bases away and trust the defense...the crappy ones keep walking batters or walk them more because they are getting hit so much.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Biggio falls 0.2% short with 74.8%

Piazza with 62.2%
Morris with 61.5%
Bagwell with 54.3%

http://bbwaa.com/

 

[hokiehi21]

I feel awful for Biggio. Ridiculous. He should be there. Congrats to Maddux, Glavine and Thomas though.

 

[HammerDown]

I feel awful for Biggio. Ridiculous. He should be there. Congrats to Maddux, Glavine and Thomas though.

You can't think of one "big" reason why Craig Biggio shouldn't be in the HOF?

 

[hokiehi21]

Also surprised Piazza wasnt a bit higher.

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

Congrats

 

[gunnarthor]

Well, first, that's a great threesome. But pretty rough for Biggio.

Other notes - I think the VC will put Morris in in a few years. Bonds/Clemens are going to be on the ballot for a long time - the PED thing isn't going to clear up unless the HOF actually gives directions. Surprised that Mussina and Kent had such low support.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

all 3 deserve it to the HOF... But i dont understand how Frank thomas got in over Mike Piazza... If mike piazza is linked to steroids, how can the big hurt not be... there is no evidence on either, except a small rumor for piazza...

Again all 3 are deserving, and congrats to all 3... I jsut dont understand the voters...

 

[hokiehi21]

You can't think of one "big" reason why Craig Biggio shouldn't be in the HOF?

what reason

 

[HammerDown]

Glad to see this creep done.

 

[Johnnydollaz89]

Also surprised Piazza wasnt a bit higher.

He'll make it next year.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Well, first, that's a great threesome. But pretty rough for Biggio.

Other notes - I think the VC will put Morris in in a few years. Bonds/Clemens are going to be on the ballot for a long time - the PED thing isn't going to clear up unless the HOF actually gives directions. Surprised that Mussina and Kent had such low support.

Agreed on all fronts....

Morris appears to be a guy that's highly regarded by former players, and I think that'll help him when it comes to his VC vote.

I thought Mussina and Kent would probably be in the 40% ballpark...not 20% and 15%.