KU loses again...

[ericd7633]

Not to speak for CTP, but his post was more about the ability to consistently win, not about losing one close game on the road to a tough conference opponent (describes both Arizona's and Kansas' most recent loss).

I think its fair to say that 6 losses early in February isn't typical of a title contender. Of course there are exceptions, but only 1 of the last 13 champions lost more than 6 games (Uconn). 10 of them lost fewer than 6.

I wouldn't rule out Kansas with their coach and their tough schedule, but it is certainly fair at this point to start questioning their ability to contend, IMO.

They have consistently won though IMO. They've played and beaten more good teams than anybody in the country. Sure they've lost some too though but that's a by product of their schedule IMO. They will have played 20 games against top 50 teams if they make the Big 12 championship. When was the last time a team played 67% of their games against the top 50? And only 6 games outside the top 100? The schedule is just brutal.

 

[dcZONAfan]

Not to speak for CTP, but his post was more about the ability to consistently win, not about losing one close game on the road to a tough conference opponent (describes both Arizona's and Kansas' most recent loss).

I think its fair to say that 6 losses early in February isn't typical of a title contender. Of course there are exceptions, but only 1 of the last 13 champions lost more than 6 games (Uconn). 10 of them lost fewer than 6.

I wouldn't rule out Kansas with their coach and their tough schedule, but it is certainly fair at this point to start questioning their ability to contend, IMO.

How often do title contenders play the undisputed (and it's not even close) toughest schedule in the country, though?

 

[gordontrue]

They have consistently won though IMO. They've played and beaten more good teams than anybody in the country. Sure they've lost some too though but that's a by product of their schedule IMO. They will have played 20 games against top 50 teams if they make the Big 12 championship. When was the last time a team played 67% of their games against the top 50? And only 6 games outside the top 100? The schedule is just brutal.

The point of their tough schedule is certainly a fair one, but keep in mind that they have a losing record against the top-25 RPI (4 - 5).

No doubt, they have played the most good teams, but whether they have beaten the most is debatable. Arizona, for example is 5 - 0 vs the top-25. Wisconsin, Duke, and Mich St have each matched Kansas's 4 wins against top-25. Zona and Kansas both have 8 wins vs top-50 (Kansas is 8 - 6, Arizona is 8 - 1).

(Note: I'm not the biggest proponent of RPI, but it is the standard tool when having these discussions)
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi

The bottom line is I agree that their schedule excuses some of their high loss count. I just don't think it excuses it enough to call questioning their presence as a true contender anything but fair.

 

[gordontrue]

How often do title contenders play the undisputed (and it's not even close) toughest schedule in the country, though?

Yeah, but having the toughest schedule only gets you so far. If you're losing as many of those tough games as you're winning... I think its fair to question the team's place as a contender.

Again, I'm not ready to write-off Kansas, and I would absolutely be worried about my team playing them in the tournament. I'm just defending the fact that, after 6 losses, it should be fair game to question this team.

 

[dcZONAfan]

Don't get me wrong. I think if we had played Kansas's schedule full strength we would have no more than 3 losses. But we had a lot more experience to start the year than they did, and that type of schedule is perfect for preparing pretty much the youngest team in college basketball how to win.

 

[CatsTopPac]

Nice one Eric. Not even close to the same comparison, for the reasons that gordontrue exactly pointed out.

I remember seeing this a lot with Lute Olson's AZ teams in the past. I obviously see value in playing a tough schedule to prepare for the level of competition that you face in the tourney (as opposed to just skating through your season, and then not being able to handle playing quality team after quality team).

But I remember Lute used to always set up a top 5 SOS every year, year after year. And frankly, you could see that the players just got so beat up by the time that they got to March, that they just didn't have anything left in the tank. I noticed it more because I follow AZ, but it's fairly common for good teams to have obnoxious SOSs, play them tough, and just run out of steam in March.

If you read what I wrote, no one is talking shit about KU, and I'm not saying that they can't still go far. But the freshmen are taking a beating, and that much is clear. I just don't think it's as much of a benefit to have such a grueling schedule if it ultimately ends up wearing a team down. That goes for everyone. You obviously don't want a cake schedule (e.g., Gonzaga, last year), but you want to be able to have your guys still somewhat fresh in order to cross the finish line. Playing all these teams, winning some and losing some, doesn't have a history of working out.

I think if you just take a step back and look at it, it's better for a team to play a top 5 team, a top ten, a top 15, top 20, top 25, and a few others in the top 26-50, etc. But playing 4 teams in the RPI top 25 and only beating half of them doesn't show me that they are able to get to the finish line.

Again, the rest of their schedule is pretty favorable, so they will have the ability to prepare for the Big 12 tourney and the big dance. They are still KU, and Bill Self is still the coach. I've never said anything different. But if you beat those guys up too bad, there isn't anyone left to come out the other side. And As much as these guys are learning how to win, they are also learning how to lose. I just don't think that having the #1 SOS is always the best thing. I watched some really good AZ teams get beat down from it, and I thought that Lute probably should have had just a little lighter schedule. I see the same with KU this year. How is that not a fair critique?

 

[Clayton]

Kansas is really rough to watch. They look like a bunch of freshmen who occasionally run faster than the other team

I've seen a lot of well oiled KU teams. This isnt one of them

 

[Texas Jefe]

Beating Kansas State right now in Manhattan is a tough task.

 

[Texas Jefe]

The point of their tough schedule is certainly a fair one, but keep in mind that they have a losing record against the top-25 RPI (4 - 5).

No doubt, they have played the most good teams, but whether they have beaten the most is debatable. Arizona, for example is 5 - 0 vs the top-25. Wisconsin, Duke, and Mich St have each matched Kansas's 4 wins against top-25. Zona and Kansas both have 8 wins vs top-50 (Kansas is 8 - 6, Arizona is 8 - 1).

(Note: I'm not the biggest proponent of RPI, but it is the standard tool when having these discussions)
NCAA College Basketball RPI Rankings - ESPN

The bottom line is I agree that their schedule excuses some of their high loss count. I just don't think it excuses it enough to call questioning their presence as a true contender anything but fair.

Look at their Non-conference SOS, Conference RPI, Conference SOS. Wow. Pretty tough stats right there. Not sure what that means come March, but still...