Kaep, RGIII, Russel, Cam, Vick

[BINGO]

Russell Wilson - QB - Seahawks

According to the Los Angeles Times, there's a "belief among many people in NFL circles" that dual-threat quarterbacks will "pay the price" this season in read-option offenses.

The belief is that with a full offseason to prepare for offenses that "last year seemed exotic," NFL defenses are "not going to be as tentative and under-prepared." Co-chairman of the NFL safety committee John Madden believes defenses will respond by "going after the quarterback ... that's going to be their answer." "They're just going to go after him whether he pitches or not," added Madden. "They're not going to be caught on their heels this year."
Source: Los Angeles Times

Aug 23 - 4:08 PM

 

[purguy12]

ok and they will get hit with 15 yards a couple times a game.

 

[Rvnight18]

Yea.... If they go after them on every play, not only will they get 15 yards and fines, what do you think our players are going to do? Wouldn't piss off the last real American bad ass if I were them.

 

[SonnyCID]

Easier said than done....

Draw some 15-yard flags and get gashed by the running back several times and we'll see if they stick with it.

I believe that some defenses will play it well just because they have the coaching or personnel to match up, but just like any play package, some teams are equipped to stop it, some aren't. Wilson said a while back that the most surprising thing to him is how much energy teams may be focusing on such a small part of the playbook. While everone else is trying to catch up to his game from last year, he's working on bringing more things to the table.

What sets great teams and great QBs apart from the rest is that they constantly evolve. Anyone that thinks that defenses will have some new ace up their sleeve but Kap and Wilson are simply bringing the exact same thing they brought last year, will be sadly mistaken. With the best defenses and running games in the sport backing them up, they're not asked to consistently win games on their own. They're just asked top make good decisions and play small ball if need be.

 

[MHSL82]

Wouldn't piss off the last real American bad ass if I were them.

Kid Rock?

 

[JDM]

If they act like a runner treating them like one is perfectly legal.

 

[MHSL82]

Easier said than done....

Draw some 15-yard flags and get gashed by the running back several times and we'll see if they stick with it.

I believe that some defenses will play it well just because they have the coaching or personnel to match up, but just like any play package, some teams are equipped to stop it, some aren't. Wilson said a while back that the most surprising thing to him is how much energy teams may be focusing on such a small part of the playbook. While everone else is trying to catch up to his game from last year, he's working on bringing more things to the table.

What sets great teams and great QBs apart from the rest is that they constantly evolve. Anyone that thinks that defenses will have some new ace up their sleeve but Kap and Wilson are simply bringing the exact same thing they brought last year, will be sadly mistaken. With the best defenses and running games in the sport backing them up, they're not asked to consistently win games on their own. They're just asked top make good decisions and play small ball if need be.

Well, the thing is, if these QBs like Kaep, Wlson, and RGIII are good at traditional offenses, which are the vast majority of the plays so far, then these "exotic" offenses just push them over the top. They feel that if they can handle the exotic offenses, they've already worked and know how to defend the traditional. The thing that would mess it all up is that you have to know which one it is and set up for that. We'll call traditional plays from the exotic setup and to the extent possible do the opposite.

Plus, these guys are not just good at traditional offense, they're up there, though this versatility helps their overall as well as traditional offense. How would Kaepernick do running these plays if he were only ok at them? Pretty good (because the system is a good one), but both traditional and exotic offensive plays would suffer. The trick obviously is to be really good AND to keep defenses guessing. Very hard to do, but we have the coaching staff and players.

 

[MHSL82]

If they act like a runner treating them like one is perfectly legal.

True, but I don't see the point in saying what they are going to do besides the choice of what to try being obvious. I don't see any of those QBs being scared to run or call those plays because of it, now the league and refs can look for bad acting (if it looks like one just hs the intent of hitting, it might be called, even if they technically can hit them - what are they going to do about it? Just complain?), and these offenses know how to adjust (though, again, when it's obvious, "leaking" it doesn't hurt).

 

[imac_21]

I'm wondering why this hasn't been an issue in college. How did these guys that ran various option offenses in college not get destroyed? How did Kaepernick not get destroyed at Nevada? How did Newton survive at Auburn and RG3 at Baylor?

 

[JDM]

True, but I don't see the point in saying what they are going to do besides the choice of what to try being obvious. I don't see any of those QBs being scared to run or call those plays because of it, now the league and refs can look for bad acting (if it looks like one just hs the intent of hitting, it might be called, even if they technically can hit them - what are they going to do about it? Just complain?), and these offenses know how to adjust (though, again, when it's obvious, "leaking" it doesn't hurt).

It's not to scare the QBs. It's to scare the coaches.

I'm wondering why this hasn't been an issue in college. How did these guys that ran various option offenses in college not get destroyed? How did Kaepernick not get destroyed at Nevada? How did Newton survive at Auburn and RG3 at Baylor?

The difference between 12-15 college games, including at least a couple easy ones, and 16-19 in the NFL against NFL level talent is massive. The size, strength, athleticism is much, much, more concentrated.

 

[imac_21]

The difference between 12-15 college games, including at least a couple easy ones, and 16-19 in the NFL against NFL level talent is massive. The size, strength, athleticism is much, much, more concentrated.

But if we total up the games of all the option QBs in college, I can't think of any major injuries as a result of running the option. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I can't think of any. And there have been plenty of college games with QBs that run the ball fairly often in option offenses.

Yet I don't have a lot of trouble thinking of pro QBs that have been injured as pocket passers. We can start with Brady, Palmer and Montana.

For me, the big advantage option QBs will have is they will get to see the hit coming more often, and will be more prepared to take the hit (think of how much the rules have changed in the last 5-10 years to protect pocket QBs).

 

[JDM]

I don't think seeing the hit coming is as valuable as you believe in preventing injuries. When you are relaxed your body absorbs impacts better than when you are tense and resisting. While there are certainly cases (especially around the knees), where you can put yourself in better position to minimize the risk of damage, assuming a clean, hard hit, I don't think much changes. The issue is more the number of hits, and this is my main problem with the designed QB runs. There will be plays where you are in essence trying to force the ball down the defense's throats with your QB, and this is what scares me if it's my guy.

 

[whysies]

I don't think seeing the hit coming is as valuable as you believe in preventing injuries. When you are relaxed your body absorbs impacts better than when you are tense and resisting. While there are certainly cases (especially around the knees), where you can put yourself in better position to minimize the risk of damage, assuming a clean, hard hit, I don't think much changes. The issue is more the number of hits, and this is my main problem with the designed QB runs. There will be plays where you are in essence trying to force the ball down the defense's throats with your QB, and this is what scares me if it's my guy.

Luckily your guy will never be in that position. Thus, you will never be scared.

 

[JDM]

I'm not saying no one should do it. If your guys has some weight and can take a hit or two your can get away with it.

If I'm Washington, I pretty much never call it. Not only does RG3 have the tools that IMO he can be elite solely as a passer, but he has a bit less of a frame, and he is arguably the most valuable player in the NFL long term, considering what they gave up for him.

If I'm you? You can get away with it as a part of your offense, although I would caution against over reliance on it.

If I'm Carolina? I get a real QB.

 

[imac_21]

I don't think seeing the hit coming is as valuable as you believe in preventing injuries. When you are relaxed your body absorbs impacts better than when you are tense and resisting. While there are certainly cases (especially around the knees), where you can put yourself in better position to minimize the risk of damage, assuming a clean, hard hit, I don't think much changes. The issue is more the number of hits, and this is my main problem with the designed QB runs. There will be plays where you are in essence trying to force the ball down the defense's throats with your QB, and this is what scares me if it's my guy.

Seeing the hit coming is a huge advantage. When you see the guy coming and you are running around outside of the pocket you can either slide or step out of bounds. When blindside pressure gets to the QB in the pocket, he can't slide. The only times I can remember seeing a QB slide in the pocket actually is Peyton doing it once and Favre gifting the sack record to Strahan.

There is no evidence that QBs running any sort of option offense get hit more than pocket passers.

And as I said, option football has been run for a long time in college and I can't think of any serious QB injuries that resulted from it. This is particularly relevant because of something you mentioned earlier: the significant disparity in talent between teams at the college level. It isn't the Alabama's, LSU's and USC's that run option football. It's teams looking for a way to compete with them. Why are there not examples of Bama and LSU injuring option QBs?

 

[imac_21]

I'm not saying no one should do it. If your guys has some weight and can take a hit or two your can get away with it.

If I'm Washington, I pretty much never call it. Not only does RG3 have the tools that IMO he can be elite solely as a passer, but he has a bit less of a frame, and he is arguably the most valuable player in the NFL long term, considering what they gave up for him.

If I'm you? You can get away with it as a part of your offense, although I would caution against over reliance on it.

If I'm Carolina? I get a real QB.

I would ask what is "over reliance."

I'd also advise teams with pocket passers to consider going exclusively with jumbo packages on offense to protect the QB in the pocket. New England should probably stop sending 4 and 5 guys out in routes and reduce that to 2 at the most keeping 8 guys in the pocket. That way Brady won't get hit.

But on a serious note, where is the evidence to suggest that QBs are in more danger running free in the secondary and sliding at the feet of a safety than having JJ Watt, Aldon Smith or Cameron Wake hit them in the spine?

 

[TobyTyler]

I'm wondering why this hasn't been an issue in college. How did these guys that ran various option offenses in college not get destroyed? How did Kaepernick not get destroyed at Nevada? How did Newton survive at Auburn and RG3 at Baylor?

The size, speed and strength difference between NFL players and college kids may have something to do with it.

 

[imac_21]

The size, speed and strength difference between NFL players and college kids may have something to do with it.

I think the size/speed/strength differences are also quite pronounced between Bama linebackers and Georgia State as well.

And it isn't like college guys can't develop enough force to cause serious injury.

 

[JDM]

I think the size/speed/strength differences are also quite pronounced between Bama linebackers and Georgia State as well.

And it isn't like college guys can't develop enough force to cause serious injury.

The difference between college and the NFL is greater then between a bama and a mid-tier school IMO. Either way, it's not as consistent. You don't play bama every week.

 

[TobyTyler]

I think the size/speed/strength differences are also quite pronounced between Bama linebackers and Georgia State as well.

And it isn't like college guys can't develop enough force to cause serious injury.

But only the best of the best, the strongest of the strongest and the fastest of the fastest get to the Pros. In the pros, everybody is a bad ass.