Is Miguel Cabrera the best hitter ever

[Darkstone42]

Wait, is someone arguing Griffey Jr. wasn't an all-time great hitter?

The man is sixth all-time in home runs, 15th in RBIs, and got on base 37% of the time over the course of his career, and all of this despite spending half of his career injured.

The man was one of the most tremendous hitters of all time. His swing was the standard of smooth. He was an elite hitter, and an all-time great.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Uhhhhh -- Andres Galaraga's best years in the MLB were when he was 33, 34, 35 and 36. Larry Walker's best year were when he was 31, 32, 34 and 35. Jim Rice had a couple greats year at 24 and 25, then his best years were when he was 30, 31, 32 and 33. Dale Murphy -- is the one guy who had a 4 year stretch early where he put up good numbers, then had a career year at 31 hitting 44 homeruns, then went back to hitting 20-25 homeruns for the next few years.

With the DH in the AL. Cabrera can play for the next 10 years if he so chooses. He doesn't have to play in the field. Hell -- even if Cabrera were to average 75 rbi's over the next 10 years -- which is almost 50 less than he has averaged for his 1st 10 years. He'd end up being 1 of only 4 players in the history of baseball with 2000 rbi's.

In all fairness, it's not just skills/performance, it's also staying on the field. A lot of position players with big body types tend not to age well, and considering Cabrera started at has a lot of mileage (was playing 160 game seasons as young as 21 years old), it may not be a great combination going forward.

Larry Walker for instance did have his best years in his 30s (although he was in Coors), but was a guy who also had a hard time staying healthy the second half of his career....he only averaged 122 games/season in his 30s.

Jim Rice's 3 best seasons were easily at ages 24-26...his seasons at ages 31-33 were far worse.

Murphy as we all know fell off the planet at age 32, and went to a .220s hitter overnight...kinda interesting that the same thing happened to the next great Braves CF in Andruw Jones at age 30.

Galarraga's an interesting one....his best season was probably 1998, but his 1988 at age 27 isn't far ahead...HRs and RBIs are lower in '88 since he didn't play in Coors and that was before the offensive boom, but he led the league in hits, doubles, total bases, posted the 2nd best OPS+ of his career, and the best WAR of his career.


Now back to Cabrera....he might be able to stay healthy and produce at a high level for a while, but given recent trends with these big sized sluggers who break down/decline in their 30s, there is certainly some doubt.

Big guys that come to mind that haven't aged well into their 30s in the past 15 or so years: Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez, Travis Hafner, Berkman, Vlad, Giambi, Chipper, Rolen, Richie Sexson, Troy Glaus and now we may be seeing it with the likes of Howard, Pujols, Teixeira. A couple of years ago it looked like Ortiz would be on this list, but he magically found the fountain of youth again after some disappointing years. Adrian Gonzalez might be a guy we might soon add to the list given how much he's declined the past 2 years.

 

[da55bums]

Wait, is someone arguing Griffey Jr. wasn't an all-time great hitter?

The man is sixth all-time in home runs, 15th in RBIs, and got on base 37% of the time over the course of his career, and all of this despite spending half of his career injured.

The man was one of the most tremendous hitters of all time. His swing was the standard of smooth. He was an elite hitter, and an all-time great.

no body is....Griffey is way above Miggy...just using names to make my point....Miggy isn't near the top of the list.....YET...but he could be one day.

 

[broncosmitty]

Watched Captain Phillips tonight. None of those skinny little fuggers looked like a Pirate. One looked like Bubs from The Wire. But he was a Smack Addict, not a thief on the high seas. Somewhat disappointing to say the least.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

and you still are just a glorified Homer that continues to throw out anything Tiger as the greatest of all time....a team that hasn't won a WS...one of the greatest teams of all time...got it....their top hitter...one of the greatest hitters of all time...and not even half way through his career yet....one of the best starting pitching staffs ever...(even though Phi had a better one just 4 years ago, with better relievers too, lol)

you get in too many arguments with dougie -- you won't ever hear me say the tigers are the greatest of all time at anything? i'm saying the guys you are comparing to Cabrera, he has already surpassed as a hitter. Cabrera has the same or better number in 10 seasons that those guys did in 16-19 years.

you then said he could fall off the face of the earth after back to back MVP seasons, but what you fail to realize is -- he plays in the AMERICAN LEAGUE. Miggy doesn't have to play the field, like Walker did, like Galaraga did, like Murphy did. He can do exactly what David Ortiz has done for Boston now, who at 37, is still putting up great numbers.

and ARod is WITHOUT A DOUBT ranked higher than Cabrera on the all-time list. He could never play another game and Cabrera would need to put up at least 6 more seasons like he has averaged to even catch up to him.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

albert belle -- his 49, 37 and 23 homeruns at age 31-33 with 151, 117 and 103 RBIs. i don't remember why he quit baseball, but he had 23 with 103 in 140 games at age 33, which was his last year.

frank thomas -- hit 43 homeruns with 144 rbis at age 32, 42 hrs and 105 rbis at age 35 and 39 hrs and 114 rbis at age 38.

The only way I see Cabrera falling off the face of the earth is if he is somehow traded or signed by a NL club and has to play the field in his mid-30's. He isn't a guy who has to generate huge bat speed to hit homeruns. He hits the ball to all fields, which is why someone as slow as he is, can win back to back to back batting titles.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

after 2, 5 or 10 years, do you really understand HOW many players were a SHOE in for being the best to have played the game....and it was said alot WHILE they played and were in their peak years...

Everyone said it about
Pujols
Griffey Jr
Walker
Dawson
Piazza
Murphy
crap the list is so long its crazy....until Miggy's career is done, then you can be "right", until he proves it...I will not be saying it nor would I about ANY player...Tigers or any freakin team...

I would say AROD is still ahead of Miggy as one of the all time great players...and I hate the Yankees worse being a Royals and a Dodgers fan... so go ahead and cry PED's...won't change it..

(ps, I think your just frustrated the Tigers didn't win crap again with this mythical great team and want to take it out on someone...feel free if it makes you feel better...gives you something to do and keeps you out of trouble I guess)

THAT is your list? Ken Griffey Jr. will go down as one of all time greats, Albert Pujols will go down as one of the all time greats. Larry Walker, Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy were never even in the conversation of going down as one of the all time greats, so bringing them up is humorous and shows your limited knowledge of the game.

 

[StanMarsh51]

albert belle -- his 49, 37 and 23 homeruns at age 31-33 with 151, 117 and 103 RBIs. i don't remember why he quit baseball, but he had 23 with 103 in 140 games at age 33, which was his last year.

frank thomas -- hit 43 homeruns with 144 rbis at age 32, 42 hrs and 105 rbis at age 35 and 39 hrs and 114 rbis at age 38.

The only way I see Cabrera falling off the face of the earth is if he is somehow traded or signed by a NL club and has to play the field in his mid-30's. He isn't a guy who has to generate huge bat speed to hit homeruns. He hits the ball to all fields, which is why someone as slow as he is, can win back to back to back batting titles.

Albert Belle broke down, that's why he retired. He had a bad hip the past 2 years of his career, which led to his retirement. So given that he was broken down so bad that he had to retire at age 33, yea I'd say he didn't age well.

As for Thomas, he mad more seasons playing under 80 games after age 30 (4) than great seasons (3)...the last 11 years of his career (from ages 30-40), he averaged 113 games/season. And he was a DH the 2nd half of his career but still couldn't stay healthy on numerous occasions.

You can also add Todd Helton to the list....lost his power at age 30, then the injuries started to come around age 34.

I'm not saying you can't have good/great seasons in your 30s, but all those guys who were considered big bat/slugger types I mentioned did not age well.

 

[Wazmankg]

How did this turn into whether Miggy is an all time great ? That's definitely premature. It started with the OP claiming he wasn't "elite" which he clearly is and has been for years.

 

[da55bums]

THAT is your list? Ken Griffey Jr. will go down as one of all time greats, Albert Pujols will go down as one of the all time greats. Larry Walker, Andre Dawson and Dale Murphy were never even in the conversation of going down as one of the all time greats, so bringing them up is humorous and shows your limited knowledge of the game.

it shows your limited knowledge of the game....you comparing players that have completed their career to someone who hasn't....

fine...I will use

Pujols
Kemp
Trout
Braun
Jeter
Longoria
Beltre
Holliday
Votto
Stanton....whoever is active

Your still missing the point...I am just stating that IF Miggy continues his last 3 year stretch for ANOTHER 3 to 5 years, he could be a top 20 hitter of all time, maybe top 10.....if he doesn't he could still be a top 100.....ONCE his career ends...neither of us nor ANYone can say, for SURE, til his career is over.

THats exactly like saying if Trout does almost exactly what he has in his last 2 years for another 8 years...he will go down as a better hitter than Miggy...but we DON"T know for sure...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

it shows your limited knowledge of the game....you comparing players that have completed their career to someone who hasn't....

fine...I will use

Pujols
Kemp
Trout
Braun
Jeter
Longoria
Beltre
Holliday
Votto
Stanton....whoever is active

Your still missing the point...I am just stating that IF Miggy continues his last 3 year stretch for ANOTHER 3 to 5 years, he could be a top 20 hitter of all time, maybe top 10.....if he doesn't he could still be a top 100.....ONCE his career ends...neither of us nor ANYone can say, for SURE, til his career is over.

THats exactly like saying if Trout does almost exactly what he has in his last 2 years for another 8 years...he will go down as a better hitter than Miggy...but we DON"T know for sure...

Are you really this ignorant DaBums or are you just being a troll? Miggy ALREADY HAS numbers as good or better than every player you listed by the age of 30. If you want to compare players to Miggy -- AT LEAST compare him to players who should be in the same breath as him. Dale Murphy, Jim Rice, Andres Galaraga, etc etc. -- NONE of them have ever been talked about in the sense of "one of the all time greats" -- Some of them won't even make it into the HOF. Every player you listed had anywhere from 4-6 quality seasons. Miggy has had 10, and he is only 30 years old.

And explain to me how the current players you listed -- sans Pujols and Jeter can be in the conversation with Cabrera. Pujols will go down as one of the best ever. Jeter will go down as one of the best SS ever. The others have done nothing, to be mentioned among all time greats.

You are still talking about Cabrera as if he has only been doing what he is now for a couple years. He has hit 30+ homeruns 9 of 10 seasons. 100+ rbis in 10 of 10 seasons. Hit .320+ in 8 of 10 seasons. His career LOW OPS+ is 130. He has had 7 seasons between 150-187 OPS+.

THAT is why you will hear his name mentioned with all time greats. Not because of what he has done the last 2 or 3 years. It is what he has done consistently for the last 10 years. He is in the middle of his prime years for a baseball player (28-33). He has won back to back to back Batting titles. A triple crown. Multiple HRs titles. Multiple RBI titles.

If Cabrera was a hack his 1st 5-6 years -- I could see you comparing him to the guys you have mentioned. The only reason Cabrera hasn't been a superstar on the level he is in Detroit is because he was in obscurity in Miami. After his 1st full season -- Miami had the first of their famous fire sales and Cabrera was left to play there until the trade to Detroit.

 

[navamind]

Albert Belle broke down, that's why he retired. He had a bad hip the past 2 years of his career, which led to his retirement. So given that he was broken down so bad that he had to retire at age 33, yea I'd say he didn't age well.

As for Thomas, he mad more seasons playing under 80 games after age 30 (4) than great seasons (3)...the last 11 years of his career (from ages 30-40), he averaged 113 games/season. And he was a DH the 2nd half of his career but still couldn't stay healthy on numerous occasions.

You can also add Todd Helton to the list....lost his power at age 30, then the injuries started to come around age 34.

I'm not saying you can't have good/great seasons in your 30s, but all those guys who were considered big bat/slugger types I mentioned did not age well.

Also, Belle's 2000 season isn't as good as you'd think just looking at HR/RBI. He batted .281/.342/.474, but he only had an OPS+ of 109. From a corner OF, that is pretty ordinary. And it's not like he was making up for it with his glove.

And Trust, Beltre will probably go down as one of the best 3rd basemen of all-time.

 

[Ronnie]

Just meandering.....

Current top 5 Tiger hitters of All-Time. Cobb, Kaline, Greenberg, Gehringer, Cabrera. (no particular order)

What if Miggy leaves after 2015? How do you rank him as all-time 'Tiger'?

 

[navamind]

Just meandering.....

Current top 5 Tiger hitters of All-Time. Cobb, Kaline, Greenberg, Gehringer, Cabrera. (no particular order)

What if Miggy leaves after 2015? How do you rank him as all-time 'Tiger'?

Don't see how Kaline's a better hitter than Harry Heilmann. Better player? Absolutely.

 

[broncosmitty]

How did this turn into whether Miggy is an all time great ? That's definitely premature. It started with the OP claiming he wasn't "elite" which he clearly is and has been for years.

Bums hates all things Tigers, and for some reason people feel the need to respond to him. Don't know why, but they always do.

 

[Ronnie]

Don't see how Kaline's a better hitter than Harry Heilmann. Better player? Absolutely.

Yes, you can make a case for Heilmann and Sam Crawford as well. If Miggy completes his career as a Tiger, he "might" be 1 and 2 with Cobb.

 

[Ronnie]

Bums hates all things Tigers, and for some reason people feel the need to respond to him. Don't know why, but they always do.

Not sure what dabums history is here (I've had several forced sabbaticals)....but I know that he and Tiger fan miamivice had major go-arounds on CBS Gametrackers which got dabums banned. He took it hard, I think. Probably accounts for his dislike of the Tigers.

 

[da55bums]

lol, I don't dislike the Tigers as much as other teams....but some Tigers fans who basically the last few years have thought that the Tigers team is one of the best team ever assembled....they have a few great players but they are really offset by the weakness of their other players...thus why they can't win it...

But to hear tigers fans, they have won back to back WS the last few years...too many tools left out of the shed of realistic beliefs.

I dislike the Yankees 1st and formost, SF 2nd, Tigers, Sox, Twins and Indians combined 3rd most...if you really want to know the truth, since you were speculating.

 

[da55bums]

There is no doubt this guy is a great hitter but it showed in the playoff what happens when a player gets knicked up and how you play through injuries.

Don't misunderstand what I'm about to say because I think Cabrera is a great hitter but I think he is somewhat overrated. I say this because it's not that difficult for a great hitter to put up big numbers when you're completely healthy but to continue doing it when your somewhat injured is another story. Cabrera's numbers fell off drastically after being knicked up. What happens if Cabrera stays banged up for an extended period of time and isn't able to put up huge numbers like he did before is he still a great hitter? Truly great hitter produce at a high level even when they are injured. They learn to play through injuries. One example I'll use is Mickey Mantle, he played through pain most of his career and put up great numbers.

I'm saying lets not put Cabrera in the elite category until he proves he can produce while playing through injuries like alot of the other greats have done.

FYI...very 1st post....

Miggy - overrated
Cabrera in the elite category...


what are you guys missing? this is what the thread was about since the 1st post...now somehow, you want to say I moved it in another direction...hey, if it makes you feel better..point the finger my way...broncosmitty always becomes defensive anything about a Tigers player...pretty consistantly too...no suprise there.

 

[Ronnie]

lol, I don't dislike the Tigers as much as other teams....but some Tigers fans who basically the last few years have thought that the Tigers team is one of the best team ever assembled....they have a few great players but they are really offset by the weakness of their other players...thus why they can't win it...

But to hear tigers fans, they have won back to back WS the last few years...too many tools left out of the shed of realistic beliefs.

I dislike the Yankees 1st and formost, SF 2nd, Tigers, Sox, Twins and Indians combined 3rd most...if you really want to know the truth, since you were speculating.

Dabums....just my guess, but I don't think you gave a rat's ass about the Tigers until you got sucker-punched by vice on CBS. You came here to do battle with him, he's gone, but your dislike of the Tigers and their fans remains. I'm sure you wish your enemy was still around.