Is Miguel Cabrera the best hitter ever

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I've seen in numerous places that it is estimated that Candlestick Park robbed Mays of at least 300 HR's. If this is the case, and that's a big IF, then he'd have finished his career with a batting average around .310 and nearly 1000 HR. Obviously, that's highly subjective and can't really be put into context with a comparison to other generations, but considering that he played half his career or more during a "pitcher's era", I'd say he definitely needs to be in the discussion.

Not even moderately true, and really not even possible. Mays played 14 seasons at Candlestick. 300 HR is an average of 21 HR per season in addition to those he already hit. And he'd only have 81 games to hit these 21 additional HR. And for the first 4 seasons after the move to SF, they were still on a 154 game schedule.

Maybe he lost a couple dozen or so over the course of the 14 years, but lots of players have experienced things like that. Maybe he could have ended up with 700 HR, but would that really make a difference to his legacy?

 

[soxfan1468927]

I've seen in numerous places that it is estimated that Candlestick Park robbed Mays of at least 300 HR's. If this is the case, and that's a big IF, then he'd have finished his career with a batting average around .310 and nearly 1000 HR. Obviously, that's highly subjective and can't really be put into context with a comparison to other generations, but considering that he played half his career or more during a "pitcher's era", I'd say he definitely needs to be in the discussion.

Where are these numerous places? I'm sure Mays could have hit 300 more home runs if he hit in a little league park instead of Candlestick, but another major league stadium? Not a chance in hell

 

[RandomParticles]

Apparently it's more like 150-200, but that is still significant.

"Willie Mays led the league in home runs three times while playing half his games here, but since the wind blew in from left field, many people think Mays would have hit 800 homers if he’d played somewhere else. "

San Francisco Giants - Candlestick Park


"Put Mays in Milwaukee’s park or Atlanta’s Fulton County Stadium, and he might have approached 800 career homers, even without recouping his two military seasons."

The American Spectator : Say Hey to 80


"Had the "Say Hey Kid," the greatest five-tool player ever, played anywhere but Candlestick Park, he would have had 800 home runs and the whole Barry Bonds affair would be moot."

Time for captain Derek Jeter to move down the line; Willie Mays hits No. 80 - USATODAY.com


" The wind greatly hinders right handed power hitters. As a result, many people think Willie Mays may have hit 800 home runs if he didn't have to play half his games at the 'Stick."

3Com Park


''Without question he was the best player I ever saw in every sense,'' said Roger Kahn, whose books include ''The Boys of Summer,'' about the Brooklyn Dodgers of the 1950's.

Kahn believes that if the Giants had stayed in New York, Mays would have eclipsed Babe Ruth's home-run records, eventually hitting more than 60 in one season and more than the Babe's career 714.

''I wrote that if Willie had stayed in the Polo Grounds, he would have hit 800 home runs,'' said Kahn.

In America - The Say Hey Kid - NYTimes.com


Mays makes any short list of the game's greatest players, and those who watched him insist there would be less debate over his status if he had played anywhere else.

"He'd have hit 800 home runs, easy," Cepeda insisted.

Legacy Of Candlestick Is Blowing In The Wind - Chicago Tribune



Now, for the record, I never stated that I agreed with the estimates, just that I had seen it. Personally, I don't know how this could be possible, as his home/road splits were nearly identical.

Willie Mays Career Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Apparently it's more like 150-200, but that is still significant.

"Willie Mays led the league in home runs three times while playing half his games here, but since the wind blew in from left field, many people think Mays would have hit 800 homers if he’d played somewhere else. "

San Francisco Giants - Candlestick Park


"Put Mays in Milwaukee’s park or Atlanta’s Fulton County Stadium, and he might have approached 800 career homers, even without recouping his two military seasons."

The American Spectator : Say Hey to 80


"Had the "Say Hey Kid," the greatest five-tool player ever, played anywhere but Candlestick Park, he would have had 800 home runs and the whole Barry Bonds affair would be moot."

Time for captain Derek Jeter to move down the line; Willie Mays hits No. 80 - USATODAY.com


" The wind greatly hinders right handed power hitters. As a result, many people think Willie Mays may have hit 800 home runs if he didn't have to play half his games at the 'Stick."

3Com Park


''Without question he was the best player I ever saw in every sense,'' said Roger Kahn, whose books include ''The Boys of Summer,'' about the Brooklyn Dodgers of the 1950's.

Kahn believes that if the Giants had stayed in New York, Mays would have eclipsed Babe Ruth's home-run records, eventually hitting more than 60 in one season and more than the Babe's career 714.

''I wrote that if Willie had stayed in the Polo Grounds, he would have hit 800 home runs,'' said Kahn.

In America - The Say Hey Kid - NYTimes.com


Mays makes any short list of the game's greatest players, and those who watched him insist there would be less debate over his status if he had played anywhere else.

"He'd have hit 800 home runs, easy," Cepeda insisted.

Legacy Of Candlestick Is Blowing In The Wind - Chicago Tribune



Now, for the record, I never stated that I agreed with the estimates, just that I had seen it. Personally, I don't know how this could be possible, as his home/road splits were nearly identical.

Willie Mays Career Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

I'd suggest that all these people have never taken a basic algebra class. Again, even if it's just 150 HR, that's still 11 more HR per season to be accomplished in 81 games. Absurd.

Also, one of them doesn't refer to Candlestick, it refers to the more homer-friendly conditions of the Polo Grounds, which is a fair point. Another one of the references is more a stab at Hank Aaron, suggesting that if Mays had played at Aaron's home park, he would have hit more HR, which again, is true.

There's no doubt that Candlestick costs Mays HR, but 150-300 is downright ridiculous and nearly impossible.

 

[RandomParticles]

I'd suggest that all these people have never taken a basic algebra class. Again, even if it's just 150 HR, that's still 11 more HR per season to be accomplished in 81 games. Absurd.

Agreed. Especially when you consider that he did just as well in all offensive categories, if not slightly better, in Candlestick as he did in all other parks combined. It would be possible for him to have had 11 more per year at home if he'd played in some place like Colorado, or maybe Fulton County (325' down the line), I suppose.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

Agreed. Especially when you consider that he did just as well in all offensive categories, if not slightly better, in Candlestick as he did in all other parks combined. It would be possible for him to have had 11 more per year at home if he'd played in some place like Colorado, or maybe Fulton County (325' down the line), I suppose.

Yeah, maybe if he went from one extreme to the other, it would be possible to hit the extra 11 per year.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Ive seen way too many arguments for trout winning mvp saying he didnt have the players surrounding him like miggy. Except he did, the angels were stacked with good players last year and still couldnt make the playoffs. How can you be mvp when your team doesn even make the playoffs? The guy was so valuable to his team that they didnt make the playoffs, that diminishes the value right there. Not to mention miggy did get a triple crown, its not like those happen every year although he could very well start a trend where he wins it every year. I guess i just dont get where all of this miggy hate comes from.

So did Blake DeWitt, Juan Pierre, and James Loney each have a better claim to the MVP than Albert Pujols in 2008 since the Dodgers made the playoffs and the Cardinals didn't?

Sound rational?

 

[RandomParticles]

I suppose it really depends upon what your definition of "Most Valuable" really is. Personally, I feel it is a combination of personal stats and impact of those stats. For instance, I wouldn't really place a lot of value on a player that hits .400 on a last place team. As amazing as it would be, it didn't impact the finishing place of the team, and therefore didn't add much value. However, put the same guy on a team that gets the second wild card by one or two games, a very good argument could be made that they wouldn't have without the contributions of the player.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I suppose it really depends upon what your definition of "Most Valuable" really is. Personally, I feel it is a combination of personal stats and impact of those stats. For instance, I wouldn't really place a lot of value on a player that hits .400 on a last place team. As amazing as it would be, it didn't impact the finishing place of the team, and therefore didn't add much value. However, put the same guy on a team that gets the second wild card by one or two games, a very good argument could be made that they wouldn't have without the contributions of the player.

I don't understand why you would hold a player's teammates against him to such a great degree. I'm not saying the MVP should be a "best player" award. I think the team's performance does and should play into "value" element. But that said, if a guy is *clearly* the best player, then he deserves serious consideration, regardless of how good or bad his teammates are.

And since Trout's team was actually better than Cabrera's team and only missed the playoffs due to geography, I don't see why that's such a big deal here.

 

[RandomParticles]

I don't understand why you would hold a player's teammates against him to such a great degree. I'm not saying the MVP should be a "best player" award. I think the team's performance does and should play into "value" element. But that said, if a guy is *clearly* the best player, then he deserves serious consideration, regardless of how good or bad his teammates are.

And since Trout's team was actually better than Cabrera's team and only missed the playoffs due to geography, I don't see why that's such a big deal here.

I'm not going to weigh in at all on the Trout/Cabrera thing, as to me it could have went either way, depending on your point of view. I'm really on the fence on last year, to be honest.

Now, on the original question. The reason I put a fair amount of weight on team performance is because it's a league MVP award and not a team MVP award or best player in the league award . If a player's contributions don't change the ending status of the team, then how much value did the player actually have? Case in point, if Giancarlo Stanton had had a monster year this season, would it really have changed whether or not the Marlins finished in last place? Probably not. So, basically, I guess I just feel like a player needs to have an affect on more than just his own team to really be considered a league MVP.

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

I'm not going to weigh in at all on the Trout/Cabrera thing, as to me it could have went either way, depending on your point of view. I'm really on the fence on last year, to be honest.

Now, on the original question. The reason I put a fair amount of weight on team performance is because it's a league MVP award and not a team MVP award or best player in the league award . If a player's contributions don't change the ending status of the team, then how much value did the player actually have? Case in point, if Giancarlo Stanton had had a monster year this season, would it really have changed whether or not the Marlins finished in last place? Probably not. So, basically, I guess I just feel like a player needs to have an affect on more than just his own team to really be considered a league MVP.

See, this is faulty logic. No, they wouldn't have fallen down further in the standings, but their record would have been even worse. I mean, take A-Rod off the 2002/2003 Rangers, and they probably lose 100-105 games and are a complete laughing stock. Meanwhile, suggesting that one player is the cause of his team making the playoffs is a disservice to his teammates.

Standings do play into my selections, as most of the players on my ballot typically come from winning teams, but that's because the best teams usually have a lot of great players. My ballot is still full of guys from non-contenders who were downright excellent. Making/not making the playoffs should only become a factor if two players are incredibly close and one helps guide his team to the playoffs. But even that needs to be put into context (such was the case for the 2012 AL MVP, where Trout's team was actually better).

 

[RandomParticles]

See, this is faulty logic. No, they wouldn't have fallen down further in the standings, but their record would have been even worse. I mean, take A-Rod off the 2002/2003 Rangers, and they probably lose 100-105 games and are a complete laughing stock. Meanwhile, suggesting that one player is the cause of his team making the playoffs is a disservice to his teammates.

Standings do play into my selections, as most of the players on my ballot typically come from winning teams, but that's because the best teams usually have a lot of great players. My ballot is still full of guys from non-contenders who were downright excellent. Making/not making the playoffs should only become a factor if two players are incredibly close and one helps guide his team to the playoffs. But even that needs to be put into context (such was the case for the 2012 AL MVP, where Trout's team was actually better).

If a players performance doesn't change a teams standings in their division, but does keep them from having the worst record in MLB, could an argument not be made that said performance was actually detrimental in a way as it made little to no difference for this season, but did affect draft pick order?

 

[ImSmartherThanYou]

If a players performance doesn't change a teams standings in their division, but does keep them from having the worst record in MLB, could an argument not be made that said performance was actually detrimental in a way as it made little to no difference for this season, but did affect draft pick order?

Sure, if the MLB draft wasn't such a crapshoot. If it was the NFL or NBA where draft picks carry so much more value, I'd absolutely agree.

 

[RandomParticles]

Fair enough. There have definitely been plenty of first round picks fizzle and eighth round picks turn into stars, that's for sure.

 

[Bulldog]

Miguel Cabrera

There is no doubt this guy is a great hitter but it showed in the playoff what happens when a player gets knicked up and how you play through injuries.

Don't misunderstand what I'm about to say because I think Cabrera is a great hitter but I think he is somewhat overrated. I say this because it's not that difficult for a great hitter to put up big numbers when you're completely healthy but to continue doing it when your somewhat injured is another story. Cabrera's numbers fell off drastically after being knicked up. What happens if Cabrera stays banged up for an extended period of time and isn't able to put up huge numbers like he did before is he still a great hitter? Truly great hitter produce at a high level even when they are injured. They learn to play through injuries. One example I'll use is Mickey Mantle, he played through pain most of his career and put up great numbers.

I'm saying lets not put Cabrera in the elite category until he proves he can produce while playing through injuries like alot of the other greats have done.

 

[Ronnie]

Not sure I am getting your point. Recent news has stated that Cabrera may need surgery to repair the groin injury he has. Since neither you and I know how "knicked up" Miggy is or was....I don't think we can comment on HOW well he played through an injury. All injuries are not the same.

BTW...Mr. Mantle used ''self-medication'' to overcome his knicks and bruises. I hope Cabrera didn't.

 

[Howie115]

I'm saying lets not put Cabrera in the elite category until he proves he can
produce while playing through injuries like alot of the other greats have done.

Cabrera has won three consecutive batting titles, an MVP, a triple crown, various other titles (HR, RBI) in other seasons. He IS already an elite hitter. You have no clue of the depth of his injuries, thus the comparison to other players who played with pain is moot.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If you want to claim that Miguel cabrera had a bad post season, thats fine... But once you say He was injured and use it as an excuse against him i lose you... Either use his injury as an excuse to his failure or not, but dont use his injury as proof that he is not a great player...

 

[Cobiemonster]

There's no way Miggy isn't elite - that's just quite frankly, a stupid statement to say that he's not elite - especially if you are using the injury excuse

 

[RobBase]

He played with a torn groin through the entire end of the year and post season.